Weeds, and more weeds!

[arwen]

To make a long story short my garden has been overrun with weeds/grass. Don't know what kinds, but the use of weed killers has been a very temporary solution. What would happen if I mowed the weeds as low as I can, then rented a good tiller and tilled it all under? Garden is large approx. 30'X12'. Any help would be appreciated!

[Walkabout]

I actually think that's a good way to plant a garden full of weeds. Think about it:
You mow the weeds, which sucks up much of the blades & stems, but shakes loose much of the weed seeds, which then cover the surface of your garden area. You come back through and till the seeds under to a depth that will likely be acceptible for germination.
Chances are, you will just find yourself with another crop of weeds, once those weed seeds wake up and find themselves planted.

What solution?
To go a non-pesticide route, I might try putting as much as possible into a hot compost pile (hot enough to kill weed seeds) or the lazy route of just tilling it over and over again over several months until fewer and fewer weeds sprout.

I'm no expert, however. I am actually facing the same dilemma with my lawn (which is all weeds). Do I till it or scrape it? Do I cover it in black plastic or spray it down with toxins? Hmmm. . ..

[opabinia51]

Thanks Walkabout, other expertise is always welcome here. I am in agreement that simply mowing over weeds that have already gone to seed can spread the seeds. Hot composting is your best bet with seeded weeds.
However, tilling is not a good idea regarless of what you are planning on planting or adding to the soil. Tilling actually breaks down soil structure and provides less nutrients directly to plants or seeds.

If the weeds have not already gone to seed, mowing them and turning them over with shovel would be perfectly acceptable. You may have the odd weed pop up but, you c an just pull it out and throw it into your compost pile.

I personally, chop the roots up as much as possible (and the green matter) and pull all the root hairs from the roots. This gives the weed plant as little chance as possible to re-establish itself.
If you are unfortunate enough to have horse tails (shudder) in your garden, the only real solution is to dig them all up and dispose of the soil and rebuild your existing soil. Horsetails grow on a rhizome and if just one cell is left behind, it will grow into a whole new plant.

[Walkabout]

Had to go look horsetails up. [shudder] That would be a tough one to deal with.

[img]https://www.inetours.com/images/Snglimgs/SABG/Horsetails.jpg[/img]

[arwen]

Fortunately I don't have any horsetails! Thank you for warning me about not tilling the weeds under. So I suppose I will pull what weeds I can since I don't have a compost pile (newbie here).

[The Helpful Gardener]

Try the compost pile; you will come to treasure it as we do...

[opabinia51]

Yes, I currenlty have three worm bins (for compost) and three compost piles. Each of the six composts produces lovely, organic/nutrient rich soil that my plants just love.


To start a compost pile simly dig a small hole in the ground and put down a layer of brown leaves (preferably cut up) or shredded newspaper. Then, add layers of greens (cut up vegetation, manure, coffee ground, seaweed, etc.) and browns (newspaper (no colour adevertizements as they contain dioxins that are harmful to plants and humans), brown leaves, dirt, straw and so on.)

Turn the pile regularly with a pitch fork or a shovel (a pitch fork works better). worms will migrate to your pile and start chewing everything up so, don't dicard any worms! They are a gardeners best friend.

Good luck! And have fun with all your weeds and plants that you plant.

[NZG]

Eww that plant is really ugly. Looks like asparagus! Well kinda does anyhow.

If it was me in this position, I'm just spray the area off. Why? I fluffed around last winter (yeah I know not the best of seasons to do this! ) and hand weeded/dug up a new vegetable garden. If I had to do it over again (which by the way I'm planning on doing this winter but the area is already dead of weeds ) then I'd spray the area off (check that the chemical you use kills the whole plant including the roots), and check the 'withholding' period that the chemical stays in the ground for.

But I'm just lazy.

I don't have a compost bin - I have chickens who eat my weeds/vegetable plants, poop it out the other end at night and then when I clean out their house I collect all that lovely poop and untreated sawdust and put it on my vegetable garden.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Chicken poop works too, N.Z.

But the ROund-up in your food garden? Too much info coming to light about residual build-up and inspecific uptake of some of these "safe" chemicals for my liking. Opa's black pplastic takes longer, but much nicer for your soil...

[opabinia51]

Black Plastic? Je ne comprend pas.

Just wanted to mention that chicken manure is wonderful stuff but, it has to much Nitrogen for Potatoes and Corn.

That being said; my grandfather told me a story of when he used chicken manure this one year and grew potatoes. The plants had these huge leaves and grew and grew..... all his neighbours laughed and laughed and said that he would never get any potatoes. Well, when he dug them up... low and behold these gigantic potatoes!!! So, I guess nature can sometimes play funny tricks on us.

But still, it is better to ere on the side of caution with high nitrogen fertilizers. (With regard to corn and potatoes)

[NZG]

Don't know about what chemicals you guys have in the states, but Roundup isn't the only one we have there, which I'm sure the same applies to over there. There are many weed-killers.

I use "Glyphosate 360 Weedkiller" in my garden which says on the containter:

"Glyphosate Weedkiller controls a wide range of grass and broadleaf weeds including couch, kikuyu, paspalum, thistles and most oxails species. It works by moving through the plant and into the root system killing the entire plant. Brown off may take 7-14 days after application depending on growing conditions. Glyphosate Weedkiller leaves no soil residue so treated ares may be sown immediately after weeds have died."

[NZG]

Having said that, and to completely contradict myself, I am, or at least try to garden as organic as possible.

I will only use weed killers if I am going to kill a large area, such as putting in a new vegetable garden. And when I use a weedkiller I make sure it kills what I want it to, and is as easy on the ground as possible, plus leaves little to no residue within the soil, which is why I like the weedkiller in my previous post because it leaves no residue for the plants to soak up.
So I don't go around willy-nilly spraying the smallest of weeds in my vegetable garden. that's what my hands and chickens are for.
I've never sprayed any weeds in an established vegetable garden and don't recommend it either.

Half my vegetable gardens are raised, so the roots would have to penetrate down deep to get to the 'contaminated' soil under.

[The Helpful Gardener]

N.Z. Round-Up is glyphosate, too. Don't believe everything you read; Agent Orange was glyphosate too, just at incredibly high concentration, and if it doesn't have residual effect, then why are huge areas in Vietnam STILL not growing properly (not to mention increased cancer rates).

I use it on rare occasion myself, when all other angles are exhausted, but always with a sticker to keep it on the leaf for as long as possible (better effect with less application and UV breaks things down better than almost anything...)

Opa thought for sure it was you who suggested covering an area with black plastic for a week or two of hot sun; kills everything pretty well dead and makes anything left easy to pull...

[wingdesigner]

Scrolled through all your replies, but didn't see anything about "lasagna gardending"! For all but the largest areas, I've found it chokes out just about everything. Yank up or spade the area as much as you are able; put down a thick layer of b/w (only, no colours, no glossies) newspaper, usually 4-6 sheets; a couple of inches of leaves, grass clippings, coffee grounds or compost (or all of the above); another layer of newspaper; another layer of compost; then just sit back and wait. If done in Autumn, by Spring planting time some turning under of the undigested layers may be all that's necessary. Or, just plant right through the stuff, leaving a space around tender plantlings. Very little weeding ("normal") needed. It smothers 'most everything underneath. You may need to add layers if weeds are really obnoxious; and perhaps hold the whole thing down with rocks/bricks if really windy in your area. If you have poison ivy/sumac/oak, etc., use the chemical stuff first to eradicate all of it, then try the lasagna--but I wouldn't plant edible root crops there the first year or two.
Happy Gardening!

[The Helpful Gardener]

Lasagna Gardening is something my friend Lisa showed me; layering different organic materials on top of each other. and NOT tilling or turning, but just planting through it. Builds good soil with good structure and very little effort. Lisa uses grass clippings, leaves, whatever Nature throws her way (Sure Opa, you could use seaweed, but I'm not sure about the jellyfish... )

[Guest]

As with anything man "invents", experience is showing it may not be desirable to load a soil surface with "lots and lots" of organic layers. Consider the post by wingdesigner but go no higher than 4" of materials. You can always add as the original layering sinks. A good top layer - untreated grass clippings. They tend not to blow around and have some weight. No matter what system you choose keep in mind that the soil HAS to have oxygen and water to support the gazillions of microbes in it. Using black plastic over a period of time will kill the microbes and earthworms along with the weeds, then you have lifeless soil that needs to be regenerated.

You can always plant a few veggies in containers so you have some favorites this year. If space is limited put the containers at the corners of your plot. Place a trellis in any container holding a vine crop. I know of a veggie gardener who has only an 8 by 8 fenced plot in sun but produces over 20 types of veggies because almost everything grows up a trellis. Its an amazing sight. Not to mention easy on the back when it comes to gathering that produce.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Hey!

Yes Lisa also grows her tomatoes on a "tent" frame of bamboo and it's really amazing how many tomatoes she gets from a 6' x 3' area...

You are right about too many layers, but the lack of tilling helps to keep the soil porous to a degree, so lack of oxygenation shouldn't be a problem unless you really go nuts adding levels. Hear that Opa?

Scott

[opabinia51]

I've never worried about lack of oxygen with adding levels to my quote unquote "lasagna" gardening bed. With all the worms in my garden, there is no worry about lack of oxygenation. Not to mention all of the other inverts and microbes in there.
In fact, last year after piling several levels to about 1.5 feet high the resulting humus layer on April 1 was only about an inch. So, the more levels the better!
The plastic thing makes sense though. But, I also don't use plastic either. I mean, from a purists point of view, plastic is organic because it is made from carbon but, it doesn't break down in any measurable human time scale so, I don't use it.
For that matter I also don't use paper or cardboard like so many lasagna gardeners use. I surmise that the cellulose products (paper and cardboard) are to keep weed populations down but, the way I look at it; if you have a barrier as thick and sturdy as cardboard, how are the worms going to penetrate through it? I just let nature do it's thing.

[Guest]

Yes, fall is the time to heap on the layers, so it can break down over the winter. I'll stick with lighter layers in the summer so material can be added as available. To each his own. I do believe arwen plans to start something now, not in late fall and does not have access to an unending stockpile of organic materials. In fact, my gardens normally wear a 4" layer of organics spring thru fall. It holds down weeds, keeps moisture in and looks neat enough to live with.

[opabinia51]

Sounds great. The more organics that better, that's what I say.

I actually delivered another load of coffee grounds and manure to my garden yesterday for layering in the fall. One bag of coffee grounds had a large gaping hole and so.... onto the compost pile with you my friend!!

And today, the lack of a lawn at my place (mainly dandelions... don't tell anyone ) is now mowed and all such materials are now on the compost pile there as well. Summer is great, there is a never ending supply of greens. The question is: what to use as browns? I've been lucky enough to have a ready supply of maple leaves left over from last fall but, alfalfa works as well.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Opa, just a note of clarification; I leave the plastic over the area until the worst is dead, then remove it. I HATE plastic as a layer in the garden; all it's good for is killing, not growing...

[opabinia51]

I would agree with that statement.

Though, I must make a correction to what I typed before. I do use clear plastic bags as mini green houses in addition to the 2x2x1 greenhouses (also made of clear plastic) to warm up the soil where I plant corn and other heat loving seeds. Catch is that after the plants sprout up, off come the pseudogreenhouses.

[arwen]

Well, I quit looking for an easy way out and pulled all the surface weeds that I could see, then tilled and planted. I didn't get the whole garden done, but I managed enough space to plant 4 tomato plants and a section that I let my daughter plant with flowers. So far so good anyway. I have a long way to go, but it felt good to get started. I have another question. I live in Colorado and would like to know if I start a compost pile now that it is warm do I keep adding stuff to it and turning it even through the winter?

[opabinia51]

You can start the compost pile right now. Just dig a bit of a hole in the soil where you are going to have the pile. Make sure that you have a good balance of greens and browns in your compost pile. You can put all of your weeds into there. Scott will tell you about any weeds that you have to be careful with when it comes to composting.
If you are going to rely on worms to do the bulk of the composting, (and they will do quite a bit of it anyway) it will be good to occasionally moisten your compost pile with some water.

It takes usually about 4 to 6 months for a compost pile to run it's course. I actually just keep adding stuff to mine until the end of October and then let it sit (while turning it all the time) until the following spring. So yes, you can still add stuff to it.

If you have found that your compost is mostly soil in the winter. Just move it over and start a new pile of compostables next to it. The worms from the old compost pile will migrate to the new pile over the period of about a month. You can then either spread the new soil over your garden or bag it up and save it for later. I do both.


Good luck and have fun with your garden!

[The Helpful Gardener]

Scott won't say anything if you tell the story for me, Opa

Scott

[opabinia51]

Ah yes, but every other time that I have told people that they can compost weeds (as I do) you have always jumped in saying: "Watch out for _______."

So, I've not actually told the whole story yet because we have yet to hear what weeds shouldn't be thrown into the pile. (Even though, I indiscriminately through everything in and haven't had any problems yet)