Growth temperature

[superdooper]

Hello. New here. After 50 years I've finally decided to slow down and smell the roses, so to speak. Anyhow, never grew anything except planting shrubs and trees. One of my plans is to start growing my own vegetables. I am moving to the midwest and the weather there is a big change from the moderate CA climate I'm used to. Thought about building a greenhouse to start a vegetable and herb garden to moderate the harsher winters, and also to keep the plants away from pests. Researched greenhouses and some how-to sites have suggested to keep the temperature no higher than 80 degrees or the plants will wilt and die, or at least growth will be arrested. Getting the temperature even remotely near 80 is likely impossible during the fall and winter as I've been monitoring the ambient temperature and there have been many nights with temperatures in the teens this winter. But during late spring and summer, I imagine keeping the temperature below 80 is also going to be impossible as well. Last summer, temperatures were either over, or hovering close to 100. I can't see how one could expect temperatures in a greenhouse to be at 80 when the ambient temperature is 90 or even 100.

This seems confusing to me. Is this to say I can't grow vegetables at all in the summer since temperatures over 80 during summer should be commonplace? Should I expect my garden to wilt and die once the high tempertures come around? What say you experienced gardeners?

Thanks in advance.

[rainbowgardener]

Hi, welcome to the Forum and to the Midwest! I moved out here from SoCal many years ago and still have not learned to love winter.

If you look on the front Index page, under Container Gardening, there is a Greenhouse Forum. You might want to post some specific greenhouse questions there.

I do not have a greenhouse and have rarely used them, except mini, covered shelf versions for hardening off seedlings in the spring, partly for the reasons you suggest. Greenhouses are expensive and heated / cooled greenhouses are ridiculously expensive to run and it seems like their main usefulness is for a month in the early spring and a month in the late fall to extend the season.

Do you not have any ground space for growing things? You don't need a greenhouse to grow veggies & herbs in the midwest through the growing season. You won't have winter veggies (my garden is covered in snow right now) and you have to eat with the seasons - you won't have tomatoes in March, but depending on where you are in the Midwest, you might well have lettuce in March. I eat at least something from my garden from March to November and then I eat stuff I froze and canned.

Your [non-greenhouse] garden will easily make it through our summers which are hot and humid, but not like what the Southerners have to contend with.

[digitS']

I used to live in California - both on the northern coast and in the central valley. Redding.

I just looked at the temperatures in Redding in July, 2012. Out of the 31 days, there were 12 days with a high temperature above 100°F! Of course, there are plenty of people growing vegetables around Redding .

Plant growth may cease above some temperature but overnight temperatures may well be below that threshold. I looked at temperatures in Indianapolis in July, 2012. Only one night did the thermometer stay about 80°. (You may be interested to know that Indianapolis had a hot summer but there were only 7 July days above 100°.)

I think of plants like children -- they grow overnight! Yeah, well I hope they do but it also seems like the bright sunlight may suppress growth. The plants are busy doing photosynthesis during daylight hours. Perhaps they make use of the hours of darkness converting those sugars into plant tissue.

Greenhouse temps? I have a 200sqft greenhouse and worked in much larger commercial greenhouse, years ago. They had air-conditioning as well as heating systems. We used 85°, if the temperature was rising above 85° despite the water-cooled air coming in, we would throw water on everything to raise the humidity to about 100%. There were misting sprinklers in every greenhouse. With adequate soil moisture and humid air, the plants were not in much danger of wilting.

I live in an arid climate these days but the same principles can hold true. Adequate soil moisture will protect plants from wilting. I don't throw water on them every afternoon however. Their roots may be seeking out that soil moisture several feet below the soil surface. That is what roots should be doing - developing a large system to keep the above-ground part of the plant hydrated.

I don't know whether you will feel you need a greenhouse in your Midwest garden or not. They are nice to have for starting plants in the spring but providing heat for them during the winter is a real expense! My greenhouse sometimes has plants growing in the floor right thru summer. I don't have A-C and turn off all fans after the bedding plants no longer need to be in there. The plants that remain have been basil and 1 or 2 tomatoes. They can take the heat fairly well and the greenhouse (actually a sunshed) is open as much as I can get it 24 hours a day.

I say "sunshed" because it has a wood, insulated roof (& north wall). When the summer sun is very high, about half of the interior is shaded by the roof during mid-day. The plants aren't back in the shade but it helps keep the greenhouse a little cooler.

Best of Luck in your Gardening!

Steve

[imafan26]

Since, you are moving. Maybe take a little time to get to know the site. Plan your garden location, compost pile, etc. Get to know your neighbors and copy them. If they can grow it, then you can too. After you have been there awhile then you can expand.

As some of the others have said, greenhouses may not be necessary and may or may not be cost effective to keep around. If you are going to put out for such a large expense, make sure you really need it. Maybe something else like a cold frame or hot box would be a better investment.

[jal_ut]

You can do a garden just fine without the expense of a greenhouse.

Here are my garden tips.

Your time table maybe a week ahead of mine. My (almost for sure) frost free day is June 1.

Two dates are important to know. The average date of last frost in the spring, and the average date of first frost in the fall. Check with local records to find these dates.

You can start planting cold hardy crops from seed directly in the garden, two months before the average date of last frost in the spring. Or as soon thereabouts as the ground is workable.

You can start planting the warm weather plants a week or ten days before the average last frost in spring.

I have a relatively short season here but am able to grow a lot of things. Tomatoes and peppers are the only things I grow from nursery stock. You see if I had a greenhouse, I could grow my own, but considering how much a green house costs compared the price of a few nursery plants, it ain't in the cards, unless you want one as a recreation toy. You know, kinda like a snowmobile?

[superdooper]

Thanks for all the replies. Yes, it might be prudent to wait but you know, as you get older, you feel like time is running out and waiting a couple years might mean a couple years less enjoyment. I might just dive in and learn by trial and error.

I'm not married to the greenhouse idea. I have visited a few public arboretums and greenhouses and really like the sight of perfect clean plants and growing area. I was also thinking of adding a fish pond inside the middle but maybe that's wishful thinking. One thing is for sure.... while misting heads or sprinklers is a possibility, heating or cooling is a non-starter for me.... not when I frequently cook or freeze my butt off to save energy does it make sense for the plants to be more comfortable than I. Hopefully, my new home will be more energy efficient and energy costs lower than the SF Bay Area. My ideal garden would be one where I could go and grab a head of lettuce or snip some fresh herbs daily but perhaps it might just be easier to go to the market. While a year round garden in CA might be feasible, perhaps in the midwest, the more extreme climate would render that impossible. The whole thinking of a greenhouse was to remove the climate as an obstacle but perhaps my expectations or understanding is wrong... guess I'll need to do more research and reevaluate my plans. Growing for just a few short months out of the year would mean I would need to rely on the market for veggies the other 1/2 of the year.... Since I'll be living in a more remote farming area, going to town every few days (2-hours round trip) does not sound like fun. Meat I can freeze. Frozen lettuce does not sound tasty, nor does $3/head prices for iceberg (local supermarket today) make my wallet happy.

[imafan26]

you can grow some things indoors. Ask applestar for tips.

[cynthia_h]

My ideal garden would be one where I could go and grab a head of lettuce or snip some fresh herbs daily but perhaps it might just be easier to go to the market. While a year round garden in CA might be feasible, perhaps in the midwest, the more extreme climate would render that impossible. The whole thinking of a greenhouse was to remove the climate as an obstacle but perhaps my expectations or understanding is wrong... guess I'll need to do more research and reevaluate my plans.

Take a look at Eliot Coleman, Four-Season harvest: Organic vegetables from your home garden all year long. He lives and raises his veggies year-round in Maine. His and his wife's website is fourseasonfarm.com, and I see on the book page that I'm a little behind the times! Need to get back to the library and read a couple more to see what I *really* want....

Especially note the journey he and Ms. Damrosch took on their way to where they are now. If I remember correctly, they began with either a hoop house or cold frames or both and build up to a greenhouse after they determined the correct orientation and slant of the roof, etc., for it. You might want to start accumulating materials for a greenhouse via Freecycle.org or other free sources; I speak from experience when I say that the further in advance you start looking for materials, the better off you'll be. (Elsewhere on THG, either today or yesterday, I related my experience acquiring materials for my raised beds via Freecycle. I hope my story encourages you. )

As for energy costs in the wonderful (ahem...) San Francisco Bay Area, ah yes. PG&E, Profit Graft & Extortion, or is it...well...other possibilities may be actionable. Especially after the terrible events in San Bruno in September 2010.

Happy gardening!

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[rainbowgardener]

Where in the Midwest are you moving? "Midwest" includes a fair range of climates from the frozen north in Minnesota to me in the protected Ohio River Valley. Where I am, my growing season is Mar to Nov, which I don't count as "a few short months." That means I start the cool weather crops like broccoli indoors in Jan. and transplant them out in Mar. Plant lettuce, spinach, chard, carrots, etc as soon as the ground can be worked, which last year was Feb, but more typically is Mar. Then I move on to summer crops and then I plant the cool weather crops again. All that is without a greenhouse or even hoop houses. etc. Unless I were willing use the energy to heat an uninsulated greenhouse, which I'm not, a greenhouse wouldn't really add much for me. But look for some of Bobberman's posts about energy efficient greenhouses, using 50 gallon drums filled with water for thermal mass, to help keep the greenhouse above freezing without added heat.

Even though you are feeling pressured, I think you will regret it if you rush out and buy a greenhouse before you are familiar with your site, your climate, your garden, etc.

An hour away from town is certainly not a trip you want to make often. Get to know your neighbors and carpool in! But you don't need to be going in to town all the time, you just need to adjust your eating habits to eat with the seasons. So you don't have lettuce year around, but when there isn't lettuce, there may be kale or swiss chard. Lettuce doesn't freeze well, but spinach does. Don't buy iceberg lettuce anyway, it has zero nutritional value. Being that remote, sounds like you will have plenty of land for growing things?

[applestar]

Hi. Joining this conversation late.
I can sense your enthusiasm to begin and that's really great!

But the discussion has reminded me of my pet peeve -- I hope you all will indulge me

Especially in this country, there is a huge marketing surge to sell you things that somehow seem to guarantee success in your hobby. Gardening is no different and especialy this time of the year, when gardeners are thinking of or actually starting the new gardening year, there is an upsurge of catalogs and TV ads and spams.

I recently read that in an eastern Europen country, nobody has heard of tomato cages and I thought that was very telling.

So what's my point? You said:

Anyhow, never grew anything except planting shrubs and trees. One of my plans is to start growing my own vegetables.

...I think that you may want to start from the basics -- just the soil, weather, and yourself. Learn the best times to plant wht vegetables, change your thinking from year-round lettuce to different greens that are in season -- I.e. optimal harvest -- at different times of the year and how to grow them FIRST. Learn to grow all the vegetables in their seasons first, then aim to grow surplus for preserving, and that's a whole another hobby.

I feel that only then will you have a feel and -- frankly actual need for -- season extending materials. ...and I don't mean that as a put-down. I really don't. I think rainbowgardener said much of the same thing -- only nicer.

...BTW it's been subfreezing all week but I can still go outside and clip celery and microgreens of kale and mustard, cilantro and rosemary, some leftover Brussels sprouts (though I'm planning to let them go to seed later). All without even plastic sheeting covers. Things under my experimental low tunnels, I actually don't feel up to taking up the plastic to get under so But I do see some garlic greens poking up. Mostly I rely on my freezer for frozen chopped celery and herbs for "fresh" greens -- like the handful of unripe shiso seed pods I sprinkled on my sandwich yesterday, frozen Jalapenã and Hot Lemon peppers I cut up for the guacamole as well as frozen cilantro from the fall harvest, etc. Dried oregano went on my pasta.... etc.

But, yes, I do have three more ripe tomatoes to pick from the Winter Indoor Tomato project, new green as well as ripe red Jalapenã and yellow Hot Lemon fruits growing on the 4 overwintering plants, and onion and garlic greens to use for garnish growing on the windowsill. My big pot of greens (lettuce mesclun mix) have been yielding meager supplies just enough to embellish a sandwich here and there and occasional salads. Fresh rosemary sprigs to clip from overwintering plant even without going outside.

[digitS']

. . . Especially in this country, there is a huge marketing surge to sell you things that somehow seem to guarantee success in your hobby. . .

Or . . . sell you things . . . guaranteed to save you money!

Well, I do save money with a greenhouse and originally rebuilt my hobby greenhouse with that idea. I got advice from an engineer at a local power company on sun angle for the south side and on what the expense would be for winter production. But, decided I didn't have a winter market for what it would produce.

And, that is how I "save" money. I sell some of what comes out of the greenhouse. Also, I sell from what I grow in the gardens.

. . . I recently read that in an eastern Europen country, nobody has heard of tomato cages and I thought that was very telling. . .

That brought something to mind, Applestar. One of the people who was important in bringing seed from the former USSR to the West was a Belarusian. I thought he was very honest about gardening there when he said that much of the seed was from "commercial varieties" because the Soviet Union moved people out of the country to apartments, where they didn't garden for several generations. People in rural areas were involved with "collective farms."

It doesn't mean that these are "bad" varieties for our garden, or anybody's garden. Just that many Eastern Europeans were not able to garden for decades. Give them a few years and they will probably be as nutso as their western counterparts .

And, that's okay, too. If I hadn't been nuts many, many years ago - I would have just said that the food at the soopermarket was good enuf. I mean, I didn't really know anything when I was a teenager with a garden. My life would have been very different if I hadn't been nuts .

Steve

[jal_ut]

If you are planning to build a new home, you may do well to consider Passive Solar Techniques

The same techniques aaare used for the design of Passive Solar Greenhouses.

Passive Solar techniques take advantage of building orientation, glass sizing and placement, heat storage mass, etc. to make a building that is energy efficient.

[Dillbert]

super -

there's nothing quite like a greenhouse to perk up one's spirits in the dead of winter.

that said, a few practical thoughts from an (ex, sigh, wish I never moved,,,) greenhouser.

two theories to "running a greenhouse" - the "cool" greenhouse and the "warm" greenhouse.
exceptions apply for specialty cases like "I'm an orchid nut"

"cools" means heating (at night/adverser weather) to something on the order of 50'F
"warm" is heating to (same issues) to something like 70'F
you will find differences of opinion as to "cool" vs "warm" regard the exact temp.

I ran a "cool" greenhouse - regardless, do not underestimate the "solar temp gain" of a well situated greenhouse. point blank, one feels quite silly opening the vents and using fans to exhaust "too hot" air when the snow is half-way up the greenhouse - but them's the facts....

mine was roughly 12 x 21 - Dutch eave style, glass to ground. at (nominally $0.10 per KWHR, cost me about $400 per season to "heat." automated venting/fans, automated heating (electric baseboard - gotta be the "worst" but that's what I had available)

I "lucked out" in so far as there were deciduous trees to the immediate south of the greenhouse.
deciduous = no sun blockage aka "leaves" in the winter, essentially 100% shade in the summer.

regardless, summer temps will cook most plants in the greenhouse - vents / fans don't control the temps to that extent - 80'F ambient, inside a greenhouse you can easily experience 120-130'F. that'll cook pretty much any "plant"

the problem with "unrestricted vegetable anticipation" in a winter greenhouse is right cotton picking simple: ain't strong enough sunlight. not difficult to provide "heat" - lots more difficult to provide "light energy" to the plants.

my best success in the winter was leafy crops - lettuces, spinach.
tomatoes, peas, bean's - not worked too good. it's really hard to "fool" Mother Nature. it can be done. but it's not an non-expensive "dolt simple" exercise.

I did in fact use an enclosed box inside the greenhouse to germinate / grow on non-edible-intended (aka "flowers") plants. works peachy-keen for such things.

but there's little substituted for "strong"Z sunlight. and, regrets regardless of orientation / glazing / heating air temps, sunlight loving plants/seedlings just ain't gonna' go anywhere. the angle of sunlight / etc / is not anything you can control. you can optimize "reality" but you can't change reality.

bottom line: you want a greenhouse? go for it. highly recommended.

just don't expect to raise sweet corn in Iowa in January.

[superdooper]

Appreciate all the replies. Terrific food for thought, speaking of which..... Looks like I got lots of thinking to do and consider. Problem is, with each passing year, my brain gets more and more tired, haha. Or maybe it's not so funny. Understand about choosing proper veggies for the season. Looks like I need to do homework and make a list/plan in order to optimize chances of success. I got space to plant stuff, maybe a bit more than I can handle even. I think a little over 2-acres. Location is Kansas, approx 35 miles southeast of Topeka or about an hour from Kansas City, KS. Still would love to try a greenhouse but looks like that will take a lot more design considerations to get the most out of it, including designing it so enough shading can be easily added/subtracted as required or else it likely would act more like a vegetable roaster. And of course ventilation too. Like I said before, any energy related boosters need to be passive. Not gonna expend dino oil to grow veggies as it would defeat the purpose of one of my primary goals.

[rainbowgardener]

Reducing your carbon footprint and living more sustainably are admirable goals. And two acres is plenty to feed yourself (and family?) all the veggies and herbs you can eat and perhaps some of the grains, maybe even some chicken and eggs -- once you know what you are doing. For someone who has never gardened before there is a pretty steep learning curve at first. That's why I am glad you are listening to advice about taking it a little slower, learn what you need to know to be able to do it right. Expensive failures would be very discouraging.

Kansas is a challenging growing environment. I don't even think of it as midwest, I think of it as Prairie/Great Plains. VERY cold and windy in winter, VERY hot and dry in summer. It will definitely take some learning and consulting with your neighbors to get successful at growing significant amounts of your own food in a climate like that.

Best Wishes with starting out in your new life!!

[rainbowgardener]

I was going to do a little looking for you about growing veggies in Kansas.

Found this K-State extension website:

https://www.ksre.ksu.edu/bookstore/

You will note the first of their "featured publications" is titled "How to Trap a Coyote." Gives you a little idea of the challenges you may face!

[LA47]

My suggestion would be to talk to any neighbors that you see growing a garden or find out the phone # of the nearest Master Gardener or call the county extension agency. You can get a lot of information from any of these sources.