Making my garden bigger. Questions. (Updated)

[Royiah]

So I've been thinking about making my garden ALOT bigger then what I have right now and pretty much turning half of my back yard into a garden in the process. Right now I have 2 12x4 beds and I love them. But my garden being so small I cant really do all the veggies that I want.
So I want to turn an area that's about 20x30 big. Its a lot of space and I was wondering if I could just till it up and place cow manure on it from some dairy farms we have around here? (mind you its covered with grass.) So how would or should I go about getting rid of the grass?
Think maybe its too much of an area? And should I add something else then just manure? I'm on a bit of a budget so it'd have to be real cheap.
I do plan to keep the beds I have but I wont do raised for the rest of it. (would cost wayyyy to much.)

Ok changed my mind again. Decided to go with my original plan when I first started my garden. Build one raised bed at a time. Using boards is really expensive so I found a cheaper way to build them. Landscape Timber. I can get them from lowes and build a 4x12 bed for about $35.
Question is can I use them? The website doesn't say if its treated or not but I did see some reviews of people using them to build a garden bed.
So I assumed they weren't.
Well anyways I changed my mind because I realized that if I dig up the yard and just till it up and plant that I'd end up with a sopping wet mess.
Had a ton of rain the last few days and most of my yard floods when it does. So Raised beds it is. Plus they look a lot nicer.
I'm also having trouble trying to find somewhere close by I can buy compost in bulk from. I got really annoyed after spending a couple hours looking online for a place and coming up with trash deposals instead. :K
So My plans for a HUGE garden this year have been delayed big-time. Its gonna cost me a lot more to buy the bags.
On the bright side I'm thinking about starting a Youtube channel or blog to show and teach others what I've learned. Bigger garden included!~:D

[gumbo2176]

That's 600 sq. ft. more garden. It is very doable with a tiller if you have one or want to rent one. Some folks here would simply use a broadfork and turn the ground over-----not me with my clay soil.

Once it is turned over, remove as much of the grass as you can and if it were me, I'd layer it with manure, leaves, grass clippings, etc. and let it remain there until you decide to plant in the early spring. Turn it over one more time then plant. Our weather will allow the stuff to break down in a few months, but get it done soon so you can plant by March.


Forgot to mention, get a soil test done to see what your plot may need. Don't just add fertilizer until you find out what's needed.

[Royiah]

Gumbo: I have a broad fork and used it when I did my first garden setup. Um do I Pull the grass first and then till or till then pull? I got a little confused.
So I should start now? And how do I get a soil test?
Marling: Wow that sounds amazing! Though I don't think my dad would let me put in a path.

[gumbo2176]

Gumbo: I have a broad fork and used it when I did my first garden setup. Um do I Pull the grass first and then till or till then pull? I got a little confused.
So I should start now? And how do I get a soil test?
Marling: Wow that sounds amazing! Though I don't think my dad would let me put in a path.

I prefer to till first then remove the grass. I have heavy clay soil, so pulling grass is a real chore unless I break up the ground first. If your soil breaks up easily, then just turn over enough with a shovel or broad fork and remove it before tilling. Tilling does chop it up a good bit and makes it harder to get all out.

Check with your county agent about a soil test. If that fails, check with a local nursery for a source. I would not trust those soil test kits you can get to do it yourself. They are not near as accurate as a lab soil test.

[Royiah]

Gumbo: I think I'll pull it first. The area I'm using used to be a large garden a long time ago and since then we haven't really raked the yard after moving or during the fall. So I'm pretty sure that at least the top layer of soil is pretty good.
But the grass is really thick and the tiller I have is old and needs to be worked on. So I think It would be better for me in the long run.
Would LSU work for a soil test? I think I heard they do stuff like that.

[gumbo2176]

Gumbo: I think I'll pull it first. The area I'm using used to be a large garden a long time ago and since then we haven't really raked the yard after moving or during the fall. So I'm pretty sure that at least the top layer of soil is pretty good.
But the grass is really thick and the tiller I have is old and needs to be worked on. So I think It would be better for me in the long run.
Would LSU work for a soil test? I think I heard they do stuff like that.

Yes, LSU is an excellent source with their large Agricultural department.

[ElizabethB]

Rouiah - Gumbo has lots of good south Louisiana advice. I live in Lafayette, La. I am a big fan of boxed gardens but I understand your concern about cost. My 2 cents - I would till. If your tiller is too cranky to do the job then beg or borrow a tiller, Last resort you can rent one fairly cheep from Home Depot or local tool rental places. DO shop price. Till - pull grass - till - pull grass. Living in Louisiana you probably have St Augustine. Takes some work to get rid of. Till and pull grass. Once you have most of the grass removed you have to decide how to handle the residual. Even in Lafayette it is too cool to use Round Up. I am not crazy about chemicals and would rather do without but I find regular - original Round Up to be the least offensive - it neutralizes once it hits the soil and has no residual effect. Once you have gotten rid of the grass you can either start amending your soil or just cover it and wait until spring - which means March if you are in the southern part of the state. Soil test is a great thing. We are fortunate in Louisiana to have very responsive County Agents and LSU Ag Center as wonderful free resources. Call your County Agent for info on soil test. There is a small fee $10 - $15 but well worth it. A copy of the results will be sent to you and your CA. When you get the results call your CA with pen and paper in hand. Your CA will review the results and make recommendations on exactly what and how much you need to amend your soil. In conversations with members of this forum in other parts of the country I have been distressed by the lack of resources available to them.

Check this site for vegetable planting guide.

lost my copy - be right back

Ok - got it

https://www.lsuagcenter.com/en/lawn_gard ... +Guide.htm

You should have this link on your favorites bar also the main LSU Ag Center link

https://www.lsuagcenter.com

I am so grateful for the resources we have in Louisiana. This forum has made me aware of how blessed we are with university, research based, regions specific information.

If you go to the main Ag Center site you will find many links on composting which you may want to look into. Also check out the Master Gardener links. Very knowledgeable folks who volunteer their time to support the CA office.

Glad to have another Louisiana gardener on the forum.

Merry Christmas to you and yours

[Royiah]

Gumbo: Thanks!
Elizabethb: I don't think gumbo meant that doing it the other way is worse off. The reason he said till,pull,till was because his soil is really clayey. Mine on the other hand is a lot less clayey because my mother used to garden a long time ago. All I am doing is pulling first then doing the till,pull,till. That and the fact that I'm not going to do the tilling. I cant, believe me I tried. Nearly cut my foot off. So I have my dad do that part. It'll be easier on him if I do it like that.
I Guess what I'm trying to say is not everything is one size fits all. If it works that way for some it may not work all that well for others.
I may have that kind of grass. Seeing as it never goes away. I don't really want to use poisons at all. but if it persists I may try it.

[Royiah]

Thank you for the links and info. And yeah it is awesome that we have so many people in Louisiana here.

[ElizabethB]

Did not mean to offend Gumbo and hope I did not. Just another point of view on Louisiana gardening. I have a great deal of respect for Gumbo's opinions. I must have missed where in Louisiana you are from. Gumbo lives in the Missippii delta with "GUMBO" soil - A challange to work with that requires a knowledgable gardener which Gumbo obviously is. Looking forward to hearing more from you.

Merry Christmas

[Royiah]

Oh I don't think you did. I was just trying to explain what it was we were saying. I'm in Tangipahoa and we do have clayey soil But as I said we've had a garden in the yard before so it isn't as clayey as the rest of my area.

[gumbo2176]

Did not mean to offend Gumbo and hope I did not. Just another point of view on Louisiana gardening. I have a great deal of respect for Gumbo's opinions. I must have missed where in Louisiana you are from. Gumbo lives in the Missippii delta with "GUMBO" soil - A challange to work with that requires a knowledgable gardener which Gumbo obviously is. Looking forward to hearing more from you.

Merry Christmas

The only way I'm offended is being called too late to eat.

I've always said, "If I can't dazzle them with brilliance, I'll baffle them with BS."

Merry Christmas back at you.

[jal_ut]

Its a lot of space and I was wondering if I could just till it up and place cow manure on it from some dairy farms we have around here? (mind you its covered with grass.) So how would or should I go about getting rid of the grass?

In a word, Yes.

In a few more words....... grass can be a problem, depending on what kind it is. Here Kentucky Bluegrass is often used as a lawn grass. If you till an area then let it dry for a few days then till again, it will pretty well kill this type of grass. If you can get the roots on top they will dry and die. May take three tillings? The problem with a tiller, some of the roots are always underground and don't dry out and die so it wants to grow again. Some of the other grasses are harder to kill as they have larger rhizome type roots.

Another option is broad fork and shake the soil off the sod and remove it. Lots of work, but effective.

Another option is cover with clear plastic and leave it for two weeks. This works very well in hot weather.

Ya, someone mentioned Roundup. That works too to kill anything that is green with good sized leaves so enough product gets on the plant to go do down and get the roots too.

The organic matter from the dead grass is good to have in your soil if you can leave it on the plot. If you take it off compost it for use later.

I broke up some grass land last fall for increased garden space. I tilled, waited a week and tilled again. I will till again in the spring. I suspect that in the spring this newly tilled ground will be thoroughly infested with weeds. A spring tilling after the seed has germinated should eliminate a lot of weeds.

Ya, I am talking a bigger area and large tractor mounted equipment, but the principles are the same.

Manure is good. It can be over done. No more than an inch or two on the area. Best to get some that has been piled up for a year. Fresh cow manure is rather hot.

About soil tests. I don't know what to say. Might be good. I confess I have gardened for many years, and never had a soil test yet. To get a lab soil test is a little spendy for a small plot. Here the soil leans towards the alkaline side so we never have a problem with acidic soil. I don't know what you will find there. Well to listen to your neighbors. The two things most often in short supply in our soils are water and nitrogen.

I suggest contacting your extension and get all the free literature they have about soils and growing in your area.

So you see, there are options. You just have to decide what will work for you.
Have a great garden!

[jal_ut]

Pull grass? You might in some soils, but its not an option here. Pull all you want the roots are going to stay in the ground. My soil compacts too firmly for that.

About tillers and gardens. I have a good sized garden. I space my rows so I can use the tiller between rows for cultivation and weeding. There is no way I could ever keep up with these chores without the tiller. My Troybilt tiller is 20 inches wide and I find that rows 32 inches apart works very well. I can run the tiller between rows twice before the plants get too large, then some hand weeding and hoeing in the rows takes care of it. By now the plants are way ahead of the weeds so what may come are not going to be a big detriment to the plants. The thing I do want to do is prevent any weeds from going to seed in my garden. That is just adding to the problem.

My son just got a wheel hoe last season. I have used them in the past. These are great for weeding between rows.

[rainbowgardener]

I am an organic gardener and an environmentalist and anti-poison. Elizabeth and I are probably doomed to have this conversation a few times!

Round Up has been promoted by Monsanto as being environmentally safe and readily biodegradable. The widespread use of "RoundUp Ready" GMO crops means that RoundUp is the most common herbicide in use. New information suggests it is not as benign as was believed, in its impacts and persistence in the environment.

RoundUp is harmful to earthworms, micorrhizal fungi, beneficial insects, aquatic organisms [etc]
https://permaculture.com.au/online/artic ... et-species

https://www.rachelcarsoncouncil.org/inde ... te-roundup has a good summary.

Also

In the US it has been suggested that herbicides, including glyphosate reduce winter hardiness in trees and their resistance to fungal disease(22). It has been suggested that damage to maple trees increases during the second year following treatment with glyphosate, and that clover planted 120 days following treatment showed reduced nitrogen fixation and growth. This implies that glyphosate which is bound to soil particles can remain active and may be released from soil and taken up by plants(23). The US-EPA has also stated that many endangered plants may be at risk from glyphosate use(24).

.... The toxicity of glyphosate to mammals and birds is generally relatively low. However, its broad spectrum of herbicidal activity has led to the destruction of habitats and food sources for some birds and amphibians leading to population reductions(25). The Houston toad is an extreme case in that it is now an endangered species due to destruction of its habitat by glyphosate(26).
Fish and aquatic invertebrates are more sensitive to glyphosate and its formulations. Its toxicity is increased with higher water temperatures and pH. Some soil invertebrates including springtails, mites and isopods are also adversely affected by glyphosate. Of nine herbicides tested for their toxicity to soil microorganisms, glyphosate was found to be the second most toxic to a range of bacteria, fungi, actinomycetes and yeasts(27).
However, while glyphosate alone has low toxicity, the formulation of glyphosate with the surfactant polyoxyethylene amine (POEA), which is widely used, is significantly more toxic
https://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Actives/glyphosa.htm


Glyphosate has been shown to kill beneficial insects including parasitoid wasps, lacewings and ladybugs.[8] Other insect populations have been drastically reduced by glyphosate populations, which negatively impacts on birds and small insect-eating mammals.[9]
https://www.sierraclub.ca/national/progr ... heet.shtml


ETC!! Many of the studies done to show the safety of Round Up were lab type studies done using only pure glyphosate, the active ingredient. The newer information coming out is from the actual field use of RoundUp which is glyphosate plus surfactants and a number of other chemicals, some of which are more toxic than the glyphosate.

[Royiah]

Jal: Wow that's a ton of info! Thanks its really helpful!
I don't know what kind of grass I have but it never goes away. From what I can see it has an extensive root system and I have to remove the whole thing or it'll come back.
Turns out I can't get any manure from the farms. They cant let me have any because they used some chemicals on it to make it break down faster. kinda weird if you ask me.
So I think I'm just going to go ahead and buy a yard or 2 of compost and add that with leaves and what ever else I can find.
The wheel hoe sounds interesting. I'll look into it.
Rainbow: I like organics too. I tend to stay organic as much as possible and tend to shy away from poison. Though I'm not against using some if things get really bad. A last resort if you may.
But wow I didn't know that roundup hurts that many creatures... Another x on my list of things not to use. :/ Thanks for informing me about it.