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Jardin du Fort
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Dealing with vines

I'm not sure exactly where to put this but this is probably as good as any. I have several vines growing in the yard, and wonder just how problematic or detrimental they would be to my (next summer) veggie garden. Most prevalent seems to be the Virginia Creeper that has been growing on the cedar privacy fence. I'm in the process of rebuilding the fence, being as how it is about 50 years old, and am removing as much of the Creeper as I can in the process. The roots seem to be everywhere within about 10 feet of the fence. There is also Trumpet Vine near the proposed garden plot. It had gotten out of hand, but has been cut back drastically, and I think most of the stems (trunks?) have been removed except for a half dozen. Also in the back yard, and possibly in the garden area, is some kind of wild strawberry. The berries are smaller than a pea and almost tasteless, so they are of no value, but seem to be growing almost everywhere throughout the back lawn. So far neither the English Ivy (growing in the front yard) nor the Bindweed (not positively identified, but I'm pretty sure) are growing in the garden area...... yet. Both need control measures.

We have a Collie, so there is absolutely no question of using a weed killer like Roundup, or any other "chemical" killer. Vinegar might be considered if it would work. So far I have just pulled up the roots. That process, however, seems to be unending, and with minimal result. I gain on it in the fall, but summer sees a fresh resurgence.

Does anyone here have experience controlling these vines? Just how much of an issue are they in a veggie garden? Are physical barriers helpful? Any other ideas????

Thanks for listening! :P

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Jardin du Fort
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Oh, and by the by, I discovered the hard way that Virginia Creeper can be toxic. The sap contains Oxalia crystals, which for most people are innocuous, but for some percentage of the population are a strong irritant causing a rash. I am sensitive. Somehow I managed to get it in my eyes, and ended up going to the doctor, since they had swollen to the point where I could not see. The doctor put me on Prednisone, which helped the situation, but the rash did not totally disappear for about three months. IF you are sensitive, do NOT cut the Virginia Creeper stems, as you will expose the sap. And if you MUST cut the vine, then do so as minimally as possible, wear rubber gloves, keep it AWAY FROM YOUR FACE, and wash with liquid soap when you are done, using paper towels to dry. The sap (and thus the Oxalia crystals) are transferable to others, including by using bar soap or cloth towels. Wash the clothing you wore for the task separately too.

Just sayin'. :oops:

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applestar
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I'm not doubting the diagnosis, but just as a comment, Poison Ivy is often found growing among virgina creeper since birds eat berries from both and deposit the seeds in their droppings in the same area. The two vines are very similar in appearance at various stages of their growth.

Good to know about the rash from Virginia creeper, I'm careful about Poison Ivy but had not been with the other one. I don't want to develope a sensitivity.:x

The tasteless pea size/shaped strawberries are probably Indian/mock/false strawberry.

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Jardin du Fort
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Thanks applestar. Well, I do indeed have a smattering of poison ivy on the property, but I know what it looks like, and it is not on the fence with the Virginia Creeper. When I developed my rash I had just found the two seed heads of the V.C. vine, with hundreds of seed "berries" on several dozen tendrils coming off the heads. I decided that I didn't want the seeds going to, uh, seed, so clipped off each tendril with a pruner and placed them all in the city trash dumpster. By the time I was done, the trash container was 1/3 full of tendril - seeds :!: It was the day after this that the rash began, and less than 48 hours later I was practically blind!

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rainbowgardener
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Wow, I never knew that about Virginia creeper. I planted it on my native plant hillside, where it is spreading nicely and doing well. It has popped up a couple other places, where I just pull it. I usually pull it, not cut it, and have had no problems with handling it.

In my experience it is way less obnoxious/aggressive than english ivy or bindweed and less likely to get huge and out of control than the trumpet creeper.

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Jardin du Fort
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Rainbowgardener, it is my supposition that Virginia Creeper is a useful and beautiful plant. It covers bare walls and fences nicely, using "sticky fingers" to grip on to things without burrowing into them. I myself would be happy to leave the plant alone were it not for the fact that I'm planning on putting a veggie garden up against the fence in one area, and the ground in that area is riddled with creeper roots. I also have to remove the existing vines from the fence I demolish in the process of rebuilding the fence.

I would agree that the Virginia Creeper does need some kind of control, but it is not nearly as invasive as the Trumpet Vine. In our ten years on this site I have cut back the Trumpet Vine twice previously, and it has in short order grown on to the upper wall of the house and on to the roof. The extent of this vine has grown as far as thirty feet from the roots that sustain it. Again, I would say that it is a beautiful and useful plant, but my recommendation is that it be contained to a pergola or other structure separated from any buildings or shrubbery. Otherwise it will tend to grow out of control.

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Jardin du Fort
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Marlingardener,

That sounds like a very useful tip. I'll have to give it a try. Do you have any suggestions as to what fertilizer to use? I'm not that into chemical fertilizers, as my goal is to be "organic", but I'd rather kill an unwanted plant with fertilizer than Roundup! :wink:

Susan W
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OMG! I thought these problem vines more of a problem here further south! Just to add to your frustrations, I can send you some privot and wisteria.

Some times I am ready to get the super container Round-up, or nuclear waste, or heavy earth moving equipment. OK, back to reality.....I do use the brush killer R-U very limited. The 1 gal container with pump lasts 2-3 yrs. Then mowing, clipping, more of same.

Now, more reality check, as for your veggie garden. How big? in ground as in tilled & planted or raised beds? Either way, I would try to dig out any roots etc in the area, put straight to trash (not compost). Depending on size, you may put down barriers. Most of my areas have straight sides, and I put down the 4' plastic barrier, sinking into ground level. For the raised beds get these down, and build up over the barrier. There are also flexible barriers. Either of these are about 4" which helps keep out some unwanteds.

Hope this helps, or just letting you know you can share your frustrations!

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applestar
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When I read that bout high N fertilizer, I wondered if household ammonia would work... Then I wondered if household ammonia is considered non-toxic... Then I wondered if it's a chemical that (ordinary) people tend to have ready at hand since I don't remember ever buying any....

...am I rambling? :oops:

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Jardin du Fort
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Face it Applestar, you're not an ordinary person.

Ammonia is commonly used in the fast food business to clean floors and other grease-laden surfaces....... AFTER HOURS! I'm sure that it is toxic, and the fumes should not be breathed, and it should NEVER EVER be mixed with chlorine bleach unless you want to DIE, but the fumes are temporary and dissipate into the atmosphere (the stratosphere?) far far away from the soil. Last time I checked, it can be found on the shelf at your local grocery market. Of course the last time I went looking for it was maybe thirty years ago...... You know, you can still buy TSP, but then it's not the same thing, as TSP used to mean TriSodiumPhosphate, which is detrimental to the environment causing sudsy rivers, so they now use a different chemical (yeah, it's still a CHEMICAL!) and just CALL it TSP. I'm pretty sure though that ammonia is still ammonia....

Who's rambling now?

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Jardin du Fort
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Susan,

Thanks for the input. I think some kind of barrier would work, as the majority of roots from the Virginia Creeper and Trumpet Vine, etc. are in the top couple inches of the soil.

My plan is to use raised beds. I have done that before and find it works well for me. Since I am currently working on a severely limited budget, I will likely NOT use forms to contain the beds unless I come up with a source of free lumber (which is not impossible...). The yard area that I will be using currently has slope to it, about 10" in 24', so I will have to contend with that in building the beds. I would prefer to build the beds in a N-S orientation, but that would put them running down-slope, whereas if I put them in an E-W orientation I can "terrace" the beds. I'm not sure just how important such orientation is, but likely terrain will end up being one of the deciding factors.

At some point I hope to add row covers or a hoop house to extend the growing season. Row covers would not be determinant of orientation, but a hoop house would need to be oriented E-W since the ends of a N-S house would be in the wrong places.

cynthia_h
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Jardin du Fort wrote: My plan is to use raised beds. I have done that before and find it works well for me. Since I am currently working on a severely limited budget, I will likely NOT use forms to contain the beds unless I come up with a source of free lumber (which is not impossible...). The yard area that I will be using currently has slope to it, about 10" in 24', so I will have to contend with that in building the beds. I would prefer to build the beds in a N-S orientation, but that would put them running down-slope, whereas if I put them in an E-W orientation I can "terrace" the beds. I'm not sure just how important such orientation is, but likely terrain will end up being one of the deciding factors.
re. free lumber: Get thee hence to Freecycle.org and CHECK. IT. OUT. There are bound to be a couple of Freecycle lists in the Fort Wayne area; it's not the end of the road, like Timbuktu was (yes, it was one end of the Silk Road). Lots of people live in or near Fort Wayne.

I made Bed #1 out of free cinder blocks. Bed #2 was from free lumber and some hanging-around-the-house hardware + some purchased hardware (angle brackets; we had PLENTY of wood screws). Beds #3 and #4 were duplicates of #2, free lumber and all, b/c they were scheduled to be piled onto #2 as a potato tower. BTW, it worked but I've gotten spoiled having three nice 4'x4'x8" and/or 4'x4'x10" boxes for veggies, and haven't done a potato tower since that season (2008).

DH decided, upon seeing me enjoy (and harvest from!) my free-lumber and free-cinder-block raised beds, that we could wedge in *one more* raised bed between the U-shaped planting of rose bushes. So he found $ for the lumber for a 2.5'x12'x12" raised bed out of 2x12s.

(Needless to say, I also looked around on Freecycle for the compost/vermiculite/whatever I could find to fill these boxes, as my own compost wasn't sufficient. Got peat, vermiculite, *and* compost, just not all at the same time. The secret of Freecycle is patience. Ask in advance of need, if possible, and be willing to wait to accumulate your supplies.)

re. high-nitrogen fertilizer: I don't know what to recommend in that realm, but very few plants can stand up to a direct painting of horticultural strength (5% and up) vinegar painted on a freshly cut surface. Give that a try, b/c any "bottom" that goes into the beds will eventually give way.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

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Jardin du Fort
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Cynthia_h, freecycle sounds like a great opportunity. I'll definitely check it out soon, of not sooner. Thanks :D



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