Confuzzeled about clay soil.

[sheeshshe]

My friends and I want to do a shared garden. We tilled the lot at this lady's house who has a huge field. Turns out it is clay. Now, everything I read online says clay is bad and hard to work with and the veggies won't grow etc. BUT... my husband comes from the south where they plant directly into the red clay soil. what am I missing here? I am so confuzzled. everything I read online says it is impossible to plant in clay, but I've seen their garden time and time again and it grows great. they just plant right into the hard soil, which cracks when it is too dry.


I have sand, and I can get wood chips for free... I figured we can work with it with what we have. we put down horse manure already. But, I have people dropping out left and right because they say it will be too much work. However I am stubborn. and I don't give up without a fight I guess I just need evidence that it can be done. and WILL be done haha! it is a big plot, but we're only going to use part of it since A: everyone bailed, and B: we don't have the $ to amend the entire thing.

[rainbowgardener]

It's a mixed bag. Clay is dense. It holds water and nutrients better than sandier soil. AND it can be difficult to work with, clump and crack and hold too much water. Planting shrubs and trees into clay is particularly tricky because in digging the hole for them you create a basin with smooth hard sides. Fill it in with lighter, looser soil, you create a "bathtub effect" where rain water just sits in there rotting the roots.

So yes, it can be done, but yes it has problems. Because of the nutrient richness, lots of veggies actually do fine in clay soil, it's just more difficult to work. Root veggies, especially carrots don't like it so much. If you want to grow carrots, stick to the very short varieties.

[jal_ut]

One lot I gardened on years back was clay. It grew things very well. Short carrots even did OK. You had to be careful to never work it when it was too wet, or you got clods that would not leave all season. The addition of some sand and loads of organic matter helped. Clay is quite high in mineral content. It also holds water very well. Those are a couple of plusses for the soil type. Clay soils like any other type will vary from lot to lot. I suggest you have a garden and enjoy!

[luvthesnapper]

Just loosen it with peat moss or something, so the roots can grow and receive water/minerals/nutrients. I would definitely do it.

[albucsfan]

I would also add that the longer you keep a garden there, the easier it will get to work with...even 1 year will make a difference, just as you add more stuff...mulch, compost etc.

[rkunsaw]

Just add plenty of organic material. I grass clippings and/or leaves between the rows all summer, and add as much as I can get after the garden is done.Tilling in some gypsum with the leaves may help too.

[sheeshshe]

OMgosh, THANK YOU!! I was getting pretty down reading stuff online, and I didn't want to give up. Everyone keeps telling me it is much too difficult and don't bother. The whole idea was to help people learn how to grow a garden. I have one girl left that wants to do it with me, and she wants to learn about gardening so badly. I'm all for it, of course... but I had one other lady that I am trying to bring on board, and I took her to it yesterday and she was freaking out haha. I'm doing it. What do I have to lose??

I have buckets of sand. How much sand would you mix in per hole? I'll make the holes plenty large, so that it is large enough for the entire growing seasons worth of roots.

[orgoveg]

These photos were taken 2 days ago in North Carolina. It's all red clay.

[img]https://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/abaction/mms_picture14.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/abaction/mms_picture12.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/abaction/mms_picture7.jpg[/img]

[sheeshshe]

Yep, that looks happy... just like my inlaws house

[Dillbert]

first accepting that "all of it is work and takes effort" - given my druthers I'd sooner start with clay than sand. reason: as mentioned - clay holds water well (downside: if it dries out, it's a brick!) has many more trace elements / nutrients than "pure sand"

on the art of adding sand to clay: it's a very good approach however comma.....
to get to a loamy soil, one needs about 80% sand and 20% clay - and those numbers are "by dry weight" - one also needs plenty of organic material - but the sand does help "break up" the clay in a mechanical fashion, one can add gypsum to clay to help break it down in a chemical fashion.

so - I'd recommend adding sand to clay in a 50-50 by volume ratio; presuming you can also add organic matter - and doing the add 50-50 sand next year, then continue to add organics start/end of every season.

except by using mega-machines with a generous budget, "converting" heavy clay (or pure sand) to "really good stuff" is not going to happen "over night" - one just has to keep at it - been there, done that, it does work - takes time.

[mattie g]

We have fairly red clay-y soil around these parts, but my garden seems to have much less clay in it than do other areas of my yard. When I first converted it last year, there was a good amount of clay, but also a decent amount of organic material worked into it - I assume it was from the many years of mulch being added to the surface and having broken down and entered the soil.

It also looks like a section may have been a garden at one point because that area is particularly dark and loamy. I can't think of any good reason why it would be as such other than for someone to have purposely built up the soil.

I've been adding mushroom soil and leaf humus to my vegetable plots since last year, and my garden has been quite successful so far (knock on wood). If you don't feel overwhelmed by working some good stuff into the clay over a period of time, then you should eventually find yourself gardening in a really good soil!

[applestar]

I wanted to post some ideas, then realized I read something very like what I wanted to post elsewhere... Here it is -- took the words right out of my mouth and he's already done it!

For me, it was a matter of necessity. My "soil" is mostly clay and even with a good tiller, it took me almost 3 days to get my garden turned over enough to add several truckloads of composted material and sand to help make it more suitable for an actual garden bed. That was back in the late 90's. Over the years and many, many more loads of compost and soil amendments, it is now much easier to deal with.

not much different than what I have to deal with, my soil is clay enough to where I can make fired pottery, and where they is no clay is almost solid slate rock. well actually that was before I started working at it, without a tiller. by using specific plants and the use of animals I have turned it halfway to black gold. give me a few more years and it will be there. without tilling the soil. clay soil is very rich in nutrients, what most clay soils lack are the proper soil biology to group it into clay/humus aggregates. which in turn increases the drainage and aeration of the soil. then come the worms and they do wonders.

the waterbug - your soil actually looks pretty good for a starting point. I would be thrilled to start with something like that.

If you are up for it, you could also start with smaller areas where you can expect good production -- lasagna garden/sheet mulched raised beds or double dug beds. Feel good success beds, if you will.

Other areas could be planted with less expectations but more for having plants do some serious digging and leaving extensive root systems as organic material.

I'm thinking diggers like sweet potatoes (probably not a whole lot of expectations in your northern area but they dig and leave pencil thin immature tubers that seem to seriously enrich the soil for next year. I wold say potatoes too but probably too late for this year. Daikon radishes -- if you sow them now, they are more likely to bolt in the heat (though there ARE summer daikons). Big plants like sunflowers, corn and tomatoes. Alfalfa. Pumpkins and squash. All with serious root systems.

Definitely think about what to plant as winter cover crop or get a lot of leaves in the fall, etc.

[TheWaterbug]

I wonder if this field would be a good candidate for a [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=198231#198231]broadfork[/url].

I'm really loving mine; it's my favorite tool. I wouldn't have made half the progress I've made in my clay soil without it.

They're horribly expensive, but if this is a shared garden it might not be so horrible on a $/person basis.

[tomf]

I have somewhat clay like soil, I added a 3 way mix of compost soil and sand it was like magic. I have been adding organic matter to it for a few years now and the soil is rich and grows nice vegetables.

[sheeshshe]

that is a really neat tool.

One of the reasons they're all backing out is the $ aspect of it as well. that and the labor. too much work, too much $ maybe I can find one used on craigslist

[sheeshshe]

Oh, there were lots of worms in the soil. Does that say anything good for the type of clay that it is?

[farmerlon]

Oh, there were lots of worms in the soil. Does that say anything good for the type of clay that it is?

Yes, worms are a great sign that there is life in the soil, and a decent amount of organic matter to start with.
Just keep adding good organic matter (compost is great) as you go, because the act of gardening causes a lot of the soils organic matter to be "used up".

[rainbowgardener]

I'm not sure what they mean by decline in work ethic... If Americans don't work very hard off the job, maybe it's because they work too much on the job. Americans work more hours per week and more weeks a year than any other country... 137 more hours a year than Japanese, 260 more hours per year than British workers, and 499 more hours per year than French workers, with fewer holidays, less paid vacation, and less maternity leave.,, 85.8 percent of males and 66.5 percent of females work more than 40 hours per week.

https://20somethingfinance.com/american-hours-worked-productivity-vacation/

So everyone is working more than 40 hrs a week and yet they have a house, yard, kids, soccer games, elderly parents... sounds like work to me.

And yet one in 4 Americans volunteers some time on a regular basis to non-profit, charitable causes, more than in other countries:

Similarly, in 1998, Americans were 15 percent more likely to volunteer their time than the Dutch, 21 percent more likely than the Swiss, and 32 percent more likely than the Germans. [and in another article I saw we also volunteer more than the Japanese] These differences are not attributable to demographic characteristics such as education, income, age, sex, or marital status. On the contrary, if we look at two people who are identical in all these ways except that one is European and the other American, the probability is still far lower that the European will volunteer than the American.
https://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/a-nation-of-givers

(1998 is just the data I could find, but our rate of volunteerism has been increasing a lot since then: [url=https://philanthropy.com/article/Volunteerism-Increases-at/65949/?otd=Y2xpY2t0aHJ1Ojo6c293aWRnZXQ6OjpjaGFubmVsOnRvZGF5cy1uZXdzLGFydGljbGU6MjYtb2YtYW1lcmljYW5zLXZvbHVudGVlci1uZXctc3R1ZHktZmluZHM6OjpjaGFubmVsOnZvbHVudGVlcnMsYXJ0aWNsZTp2b2x1bnRlZXJpc20taW5jcmVhc2VzLWF0LWhpZ2hlc3QtcmF0ZS1pbi02LXllYXJz]surge in volunteerism[/url]

tell me again about the lazy Americans?

[lily51]

Thanks Rainbow for the information. No wonder we're tired!
As far as clay soil goes, you might want to find out the history of the lot .
We live on a knoll which is clay to start with, like many of soils around here. As someone said, can get very cloddy.
But can still be gardened.
Years ago right next to our garden was excavated for oil and gas. Lots of digging, bringing up subsoils, covering up top soil with even denser clay.
It had to be thoroughly dry before even walking in it or it turned to concrete!
About 14 or so years ago our son made raised beds for the garden, filled with beautiful soil. Gardening has been a pleasure ever since!

[sheeshshe]

These are all stay at home moms and homeschool moms we're talking about here. So, the "work ethic" in this scenario is to be questioned HAHA.

[sheeshshe]

I think they said it might have been a farm with cows?

[lily51]

A pasture would turn into a great garden!
It should be mellow and well-fertilized.
Sounds like its worth it to give it a try.
Happy planting!

[applestar]

If they are homeschool moms, I have a suggestion for you --

Try proposing that you want to explore different ways of turning clay former cow pasture into good productive garden. Tell them that off hand there are several different till and no-till ideas that have been suggested --

(1) conventional typical method -- tilling material in with a tiller (a tiller is said to leave a hardpan at depth of the tiller by no-till proponents)
(2) using broad fork (or garden fork will work though not as deeply or easily) -- a manual pre-power tool era process and probably closer to typical home garden
(2.5) you might also see if you can rent or borrow a non-power wheel hoe as an in between of (1) and (2). IMHO they look closest to the colonial and pioneer horse-drawn hoes though this is human powered, smaller and less heavy-duty. Possibly from a vender under aegis of (home)school project.
(3) double dug bed -- dug properly, the soil layers and structure are minimally disturbed
(4) no-till sheet mulched/lasagna bed
(6) UNMODIFIED bed where pioneer crops wil be grown to prep the bed for next year -- maybe more than one to test different crops

Now tell them you want to experiment and explore which of these are most effective by creating separately prepared beds and growing exactly the same crops.

BAM! A summer science project right there for their kids. They can research the differet methods, then vote which they think would be best and make up teams to be in charge of each bed.

If they want to get really serious about this project and you can keep animals on this land, you might also consider trying a chicken tractor. I would suggest setting up a sturdy, covered dog kenne/cage (to keep predators OUT) and putting the chicken coop inside. One other more serious permaculture idea is to put some pigs on the land to dig. Goat as weeders and ducks..... You might find some 4-H groups that maybe interested.

(OF COURSE start and maintain compost piles.)

[lily51]

Great idea for projects. Maybe instead of voting collect data on growth and go from there.

[TheWaterbug]

My friends and I want to do a shared garden. We tilled the lot at this lady's house who has a huge field.

Sounds like an interesting project.

How did you till the field? Do you have regular access to equipment?

What kind of water access do you have, and/or what is the rainfall like?

If you're having trouble recruiting people, then I'd just start small, and with "easy" crops.

If you have a nearby water source and/or regular rainfall, I'd plant a few rows of corn, some tomatoes, and some squashes. Those are so easy that not even I can kill them . And they don't even require that much soil prep.

Plant just enough so that you and your one friend can handle it all if no one else participates.

Then, at harvest time, parade your trophies around and gloat. If anyone asks for a taste, do your best Little Red Hen.

And then next season you'll have more participants.

[sheeshshe]

not sure how they tilled it, they knew someone who did it. it wasn't done well and needs to be done again. we're doing it on friday I hope.

that is exactly it. tomatoes, green beans, and some squash/pumpkins and we're calling it good. I'm not dealing with them... they backed out, and we picked 1/4 of the tilled spot that we're going to mess with, we have it under control and they can just deal with it next year once they see our success bc we're growing some veggies!!!



they said it was too much work for them to get the soil ready this year. so they'll just wait until next year. I tried convincing them, and they just don't want to put the work into it. fine by me. the 3 of us will have a good time!

[TheWaterbug]

tomatoes, green beans, and some squash/pumpkins and we're calling it good.

Corn! Corn! Corn! Corn! Corn! Corn! Corn!

Anyway, good luck, and keep us posted. Pictures, if you have 'em!

[sheeshshe]

haha. we were going to do corn originally, and I suppose we still could, but we don't have the resources to amend that whole plot. we could get a lot of corn too with what is tilled thus far. the corn would have to go right in the existing soil, as is... we could try it I suppose and see how it does just for fun. maybe I'll pick up a packet of seeds for kicks

[gixxerific]

Don't listen to the net. Clay soil is acutally very rich in nuritients. It can be a pain in the beginning but keep working it and you have a great plot.

Look at my garden it went from grass to productive. It took time and effort but there you go.

You will be fine.

[TheWaterbug]

haha. we were going to do corn originally, and I suppose we still could, but we don't have the resources to amend that whole plot. we could get a lot of corn too with what is tilled thus far. the corn would have to go right in the existing soil, as is... we could try it I suppose and see how it does just for fun. maybe I'll pick up a packet of seeds for kicks

I'd do it; you have little to lose by trying. I did very little amending to my corn patch last year, and I got one nice, fat ear for every stalk on 12" spacing and 36" rows. This year I'm planting denser, but fertilizing, and hoping for higher yields.

Apologies if this is duplicate info for you, but be sure to plant more, shorter rows rather than fewer, longer rows. A block is better than a hedge for pollination.

[sheeshshe]

sure, why not. lets plant some corn!!! nothing to lose! they said there are raccoons that steal it though.

yeppo on the block thingie. I can't wait to see how this thing turns out~!

[farmerlon]

I'm not sure what they mean by decline in work ethic... tell me again about the lazy Americans?

I actually went back and edited that post, to remove that paragraph. In retrospect, it probably sounded more negative than I intended.

However, the PBS documentary I had mentioned was called "Civilization, the West and the Rest". While they may not have it all right [few of us ever do], I found some of the historical perspective they present to be interesting, including their opinion that America is facing increasing competition from other countries because of a general shift (or decline) in work ethic.
I won't argue the statistics you quoted, but I might suggest that the quantity of hours might not necessarily correspond to the quality of hours worked.

Either way, I should have just kept the discussion to gardening... we all know that takes work; enjoyable work for most of us I believe!