DRT
Full Member
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:59 am
Location: Kentucky

Raised bed garden question

This will be long so I will apologize up front. I have a 10x50 garden at the moment that is doing very well. I left what I felt like was enough room for a tiller between rows, but with the wet weather and the fact I have to drive 30 minutes one way to borrow a tiller the plants have gotten to big now to till. So I was considering raised beds next year.

I was going to use 2x12's and frame up a 5x10 box for my zucchini and squash (2 of each), a 4x10 for my peppers & tomatoes (4 bell peppers, 2 jalapeños, 2 4 banana peppers, around 10 tomato plants) with brackets to hold my cattle panels to tie the tomatoes too, and finally 2 2x10 boxes with brackets for cattle panels for pole beans. What I have left will be for my cantaloupes and watermelons. I will fill all the beds with top soil from a local mulch place and mix with thier compost that they sell or by a western mix they have that is topsoil, compost, and pine fines.

I'm calling these raised beds but they won't really be raised that high, just whatever a 2x12 board is (11.5"I think). I think there is some different verbage for what I'm wanting to make, but anyway my mindset is there will be less weeds, and I will be able to plant everything closer togeather becaue I won't have to worry about fitting a tiler inbetween. It will be much easier to fertilize the plants with 10-10-10, miricle grow, compost, or whatever I decide to use. Is my mindset correct?

Also is there something I can plant in them during the winter that will help keep the soil loose for the next spring. I have been told by a older man that gave me this idea that he plants some kind of peas in the winter that helps keep the soil loose.

I live in south central kentucky if anyone wonders.

Thanks in advance for any ideas or knowledge you offer,
David

User avatar
jal_ut
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 7447
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Northern Utah Zone 5

My feelings: That is a lot of work and expense. Just get a hoe. Hoe,hoe,hoe. Things are apt to grow better in your natural soil than anything you might gather up to fill raised beds.

I know you will get many responses in favor of raised beds. It is a popular way to garden.

Welcome to the forum.

DoubleDogFarm
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 6113
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:43 pm

My feelings: That is a lot of work and expense. Just get a hoe. Hoe,hoe,hoe. Things are apt to grow better in your natural soil than anything you might gather up to fill raised beds.
I agree with James, well partially. Lumber is a unnecessary expense. You can still rototill the aisle and berm up the native soil into raised rows.
[img]https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/eric_wa/Double%20Dog%20Farm%20Vegetable%20Garden%20plants/DSC02139.jpg[/img]
I've reduced my beds down to 3ft wide. 4ft is a reach for me and 5ft is out of the question.

Eric

User avatar
gixxerific
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 5889
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:42 pm
Location: Wentzville, MO (Just West oF St. Louis) Zone 5B

Alright I'm jumping on again. I wrote up a big thing earlier that I didn't post it sounded mean though it wasn't

As James said and I believe entirely raised beds are too much work and money. Myself and the 2 other above me all have raised beds, though without sides, they are still raised beds. With all the amendments they get they raise in height.

Now if you have a small area this might not be a bad idea, or if you have neighbors that will complain of an unsightly garden again it's feasible.

Really I was arguing with myself over this topic earlier seeing on another forum. The only real benefit I see, in my situation that boxed up raised beds are better is you don't walk on the soil. If you were older they can be used to raise them up a more friendly position to lessen bending over. But for me it's the walking. But than again what is the difference there I still have a certain path I walk which would be outside of the "raised beds" so no difference.

Sorry I'm rambling.

Good luck.

bogydave
Senior Member
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:11 pm
Location: Alaska

I went raised beds to stop roto tilling : alway turning up new weed seeds, less maintenance, killing earth worms, weed control, less soil to amend (only worry about the soil in the beds), warmer soil temps.
I started with a few beds & make a few each year as I have compost to fill them with.
I'm convinced it is the way for my conditions & situation. I had the garden soil between the raised beds covered with land scape cloth last year so I have few weed seeds sprouting between the beds this year. (I pulled most of it up due to a wet year last year & the slugs loved to hide under it)
I have had good success planting in the RBs full of 100% compost.

Some other names are "No-till" & "square foot" gardening.
Now I make the beds with angled sides & use 10" or 12" lumber so crop rotation is not an issue.

I moved my potatoes out side the garden in regular rows. No critters here eat them. That gave me room for a few more RBs, which I should have enough compost for next spring. I throw wood ashes between the rows which helps reduce weeds & bugs (bugs/slugs/cut-worms/ flies that lay eggs & become root maggots) don't like wood ashes & the PH reduces weeds.

I don't see ever going back to rot-tilling the whole garden before I can plant again. But I found it works well here for me & I get thawed & warmer soil earlier. I planted this year before my neighbors roto-tilled (due to frozen or too wet soil conditions)

Like said, making RBs in & filled takes some effort but the results I've had convinced me the effort is worth it. Cost can/may be an issue if you use quality lumber but I shop for the bowed/bent/split reject 2X10s & 12s at HD & Lowes for less than 1/2 price. I scrounged some construction left overs, so I don't have much cost in the RBs.

I filled my beds with 100% compost. some 100% Horse Manure compost, some 100% garden/lawn compost, some a mix of the 2. I found the mix works well for me with a layer of almost done compost (kinda a leaf mold) on the bottom. As you can tell, I'm "hooked on compost" & make several cubic yards every year. Was told by some it wouldn't work, but my plant seem to like it.

All that said. We each have different ways of gardening which evolves to fit our style & conditions. I am on my 3rd year with RBs & it is working very well for my garden. I did it with a tiller since 1982, just like my folks did. Now I'm a convert to RBs.

So I'm of the camp that a Raised bed garden is easier & in Alaska work better than a roto tilled garden for me. (except for potatoes)

Pics:
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37028

shadowsmom
Senior Member
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:40 pm
Location: NJ

bogydave - I really like your narrow beds. I made all mine 4' wide but now that I've seen your narrower ones I think I may convince my son to make me some for next year. Are they 2' wide?

I didn't start out with raised beds but the amount of rock on my property - boulders in some areas - convinced me to give it a try. There was no such thing as planting in rows until I went to raised beds. I basically planted wherever I could dig a large enough hole. :(

User avatar
Fig3825
Senior Member
Posts: 286
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:40 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

I use raised beds also. Mine are 4 x 10' and I find the reach to the center is not too bad and it works well for plant spacings of 2' to 3' because you can plant along the boards. I have 10 tomato plants in one bed. Each plant has 2' between it and the next along the long dimension of the bed and 2'6" between it and the next plant on the short dimension of the bed. For a smaller gardener like myself, the 4' rows work well for me and my small family. Alternatively, if you had a favorite and wanted 10' rows of something, you have that option as well.

In the end, if you decide you wanted 2'x10' beds and had more cash to spend on lumber, you could simply cut the end boards in half and add a new long board to split one 4' x 10' bed into 2ea 2' x 10' beds.

My beds:
[img]https://www.jtnewton.com/Images/Garden/008.jpg[/img]

Note: I ended up removing the mulch from the beds due to a sting of bad weather and too much retained moisture. Replanted everything after a bout with moisture and bad decisions regarding organic pest controls. Have since replanted everything, left the weed block in place in all but one bed and everything is now growing well.

gardenvt
Green Thumb
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:21 am

The best reasons for raised beds in boxes is my back & knees. I have three that are 3'x8'x20" deep and I can sit next to the box and my back and knees are fine with that for planting and harvesting. We had extra topsoil and compost so made two 4'x8'x12' deep. those are hard to work with and the 4 feet seems nore difficult than it would be if it were deeper. We will be raising the 4'x8' this fall so that they are also of a better height for my back.

I have to agree that this is very expensive to start. But, it is worth it to be able to grow more of our own food and save my back & knees.

Beyond that, we really worked hard to make it appealing in appearance as we live in an urban area. We get so many compliments and folks are just astounded that one can have a garden do so well in this area. Folks who pass by every day notice the amazing growth in the last 5 weeks and I hope it encourages them to try a few plants themselves.

I started with a few pots - I like my boxes.

Bobberman
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2437
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:31 pm
Location: Latrobe Pa.

The raised beds and mulched beds do much better in dry weather! Plants also seem heathier! Another thing that you can do is use the raised bed for a cold frame early they convert over! I am also working on a raised bed 4 by 12 with 2 by 12's with a plastic 3 inch drain pipe running though the center burried a foot below the surface with a L to put the water or compost tea in either end! When I use it for a cold frame I will put warm water in the pipe on extra cold nights!

gardenvt
Green Thumb
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:21 am

Thanks for bringing up the cold frame aspect, Bobberman - I was also thinking of that for this fall and in the spring.

garden5
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 3062
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:40 pm
Location: ohio

The best reasons I can see to go with raises beds over non raised (but still narrow) is that it is a little easier to plant, soil warms up sooner, you can use your own soil mix (if, say, the natural soil is poor), and it might looks a little nicer.

Personally, though, these benefits aren't enough for me to go from no-till to raised beds. You don't need to be raised to have no-till. You just need a garden that is wide enough that you don't have to walk in it.

on a lighter note:
Hoe,hoe,hoe. Things are apt to grow


Jal, you should have been a poet :lol:.

User avatar
jal_ut
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 7447
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Northern Utah Zone 5

I have a 10x50 garden at the moment
As gardens go 500 sq ft is a small plot, well within the realm of working it with hand tools.

One thing I want you to consider and most folks don't even think about is that the roots of plants go out sideways quite a considerable distance. Even if you plant in rows and leave space for a tiller between rows, you can bet your butt that every square inch of your underground garden has your plants roots throughout it. There is no wasted space, as I sometimes hear "Rasied Bed People" say. By the time crops mature, there is precious little area above ground that is not covered by the canopy as well. If you give your plants room to gather soil nutrients and room to gather sunshine, you will have some healthy and vigorous plants. The alternative is crowding them up in raised beds or worse yet, pots.

About weeds: If you don't let them go to seed in your garden, you will have very few weeds. It is when people get lazy in the fall and quit caring, that the weeds go to seed and make plans to keep you busy pulling their offspring next year.

OK, that's my opinion, and I know there are many successful "Bed" gardeners out there. You just have to weigh the pros and cons and do what pleases you.

User avatar
jal_ut
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 7447
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Northern Utah Zone 5

Also, I keep hearing about all the fake soils and compost that people fill their beds with. Guess what? You can put all the amendments you want on your plot whether its raised or not. I think the reason things still do well in this type of bed is that the roots can and will go down into the real soil under the beds. If you are having trouble with this concept, [url=https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137toc.html]READ THIS![/url]

Bobberman
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2437
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:31 pm
Location: Latrobe Pa.

I like mixing some regular soil with anything I have to add to the garden! I like to take dirt that is below the surface to mix since there are less weed seeds in it!

bogydave
Senior Member
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:11 pm
Location: Alaska

[quote="shadowsmom"]bogydave - I really like your narrow beds. I made all mine 4' wide but now that I've seen your narrower ones I think I may convince my son to make me some for next year. Are they 2' wide?

I didn't start out with raised beds but the amount of rock on my property - boulders in some areas - convinced me to give it a try. There was no such thing as planting in rows until I went to raised beds. I basically planted wherever I could dig a large enough hole. :([/quote]

I'm making mine now 3' wide at the bottom & 18" to 24" wide at the top.
Like Jal_ut said root grow out sideways, so wider at the bottom helps that + a few other benefits. (sun angle for heat, moisture retention,>>)
The "perfect garden" is one that works well for you & is fun.

gardenvt
Green Thumb
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:21 am

Jal, you are right about all of that.

Sitting on 4" thick concrete bricks added that many inches to the 20" of depth in my 3'x8'x20" beds. My husband didn't think they needed to be that deep until I told him (then showed him) that carrot roots can grow as deep as 5.5 feet. Onions have a lot of shallow roots but some deep ones as well. I handed him my book on plant roots. He was quite surprised. The two 4'x8'x12" beds were set up to use up the extra soil we had. We plan to go up another 12" this fall.

As you noted, roots do travel in all directions and take up a huge amount of space. Square foot gardening is OK for some plants but you can't crowd plants or they won't do well. If you study the root developement of individual plants, you won't plant them so close. I planted my broccoli, brussel sprouts and cauliflower at the spacing recommended by the seedsman for an in-ground garden. Same with the onion family, beets, spinach, lettuce.

I did however, decide to show my husband what happens when you plant too close. So some sacrificial plants in one area. It surprised him to see how healthy the well spaced plants are versus those that are too close together. As well, the bugs can hide better and do more damage than had we been able to see them.

I also agree with some of the soil mix. One of our garden centers offered a mix for raised box beds. When I got the general percentage of everything in there, I knew I wanted to make my own - and did. I got the best topsoil possible at a really good price - well, if you have to pay for it. I also used good local compost and well rotted manure from a local Vermont company that I would trust with my plants. My beds hold enough moisture that I don't have to water every day and drain well so nothing sits in water. I haven't had to fertilize the raised box beds.

Where I push my plants to grow for me is in the containers and I do still use them but not the small ones I used when I first started.

If I had the space and decent soil and a much better back & knees, I would love to have a garden like yours, Jal, because that is what I grew up with. My Dad had 9 kids to feed and we all helped in one way or another to maintain that huge garden.

Like many people across America, I am very much into growing as much of our food as possible so I know how it is grown. We don't all have the perfect soil or space to garden and so we look to the "experts" who will sometimes sell us what we don't really need. We also have a few of us older folks who love to garden but our some of our body parts rebel.

I think we could be respectful of the different methods of gardening because each of us is doing it the best way we can/know how. Many are first time gardeners and we don't want to discourage anyone from gardening or visiting this website because we have our own way of doing things.

I'm certain every gardener across America would love to have huge gardens and much longer growing seasons, better backs & knees and the experience of many years of gardening. Many are just learning and I say Kudos to everyone who is a first time gardener or trying a new method or plant.

And for all the experienced folks, I say thank you for sharing all of your wisdom. You do indeed inspire us all.

bogydave
Senior Member
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:11 pm
Location: Alaska

[quote="jal_ut"]Also, I keep hearing about all the fake soils and compost that people fill their beds with. Guess what? You can put all the amendments you want on your plot whether its raised or not. I think the reason things still do well in this type of bed is that the roots can and will go down into the real soil under the beds. If you are having trouble with this concept, [url=https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137toc.html]READ THIS![/url][/quote]

Thanks Jal
Very helpful chart.
I found out here that you have to grow carrots in a raised hill,bed or some way to warm the soil. About 6" down the soil temp get pretty cold & the carrots stop making a carrot, many times you get 3 or 4 legged short carrots. Of course the type of summer weather will vary from year to year & soil temps at various depths vary along with that.
A grower here said somewhere around the 40° temp range is all deeper the carrot will grow, I don't know about the deeper feed roots but my first carrots in a regular West Virginia garden were short, stubby multi legged, but tasted good.
Each geographic area has issues to be dealt with.
Of course here, I'm lucky. I am planting on a gravel base down about 14 to 16", with a 4" or so layer of clay on top of that (moraine left from the glaciers) then the hundreds of years of about 4" to a 8" of topsoil (natures compost). The frost leaves the ground (which is frozen down about 5 feet) 1st week or so of June. That's my area.
Growing in tundra (Frozen ground down about 2 feet in the summer) a little farther north of my area adds even more challenges. Then Muskeg, which is several feet of peat moss in other areas (with no or very little drainage) is another.

Bobberman
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2437
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:31 pm
Location: Latrobe Pa.

I make raised beds smaller like 4 by 5 but do have a few 4 by 12's! I make beds back to back seperated by a land scape timber or just a 2 by 10. I have 4 beds together that I also use for cold frames. When you make the raised bed to make the outside wider I usuallu put a 9 inch piece of card board on the outside of the frame all around and cover it with with seedless soil mix. I sometimes I plant a flower on the outside of the frame like marigolds. I have even put a row of brick around the top of the frame to wald or kneel on!
+++
There are alot of ways to make raised beds and all types of material to use! Solid 4 inch concrete block make a nice frame and they cost about $1.25 each!. Set them on the 8 inch side and usually work nice for the smaller 8 inch deep beds!

User avatar
cherishedtiger
Green Thumb
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Sacramento, California

I really think it all depends on what you are looking to do and what you have to work with.
Me, for example, I live in a duplex (a renter) with extremely bad soil. I opted for a small raised bed, yeah the cost was a bit significant but for my purposes it has worked out great.
If you have the land and the ability to grow from the ground, grab that rototiller, dig up what you need and call it good! I wish I could! I have a feeling, if I did that though, the landlord would pitch a fit!

DRT
Full Member
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:59 am
Location: Kentucky

I have a small lot in a subdivision and right now 1/3 of my back yard is garden. I love to fish, hunt, and garden (in that order) and don't want to apply the time to keep the rototill looking as good as I'd like for town. In addition the soil sucks, I've been adding to it and its getting better but still hard to grow some stuff. I figured the raised beds would look better, grow better, and require less time for maintenance. I'll still have a small roto till spot for my melons but that would be it.

Bobberman
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2437
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:31 pm
Location: Latrobe Pa.

A narrow raised bed about 3 feet wide is nice because you can increase the length quick. If you want to put in 6 zucs. just add 4 more feet!!

User avatar
shadylane
Green Thumb
Posts: 456
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:42 am
Location: North Central Illinois

[quote="DRT"]Also is there something I can plant in them during the winter that will help keep the soil loose for the next spring. I have been told by a older man that gave me this idea that he plants some kind of peas in the winter that helps keep the soil loose.

I remember something about that pea planting too, but can not recall by name. One can plant the annual clover which in return gives nitrogen back to the soil.
This is the first year for my raised beds, I really enjoy working less and easy on the back.

Bobberman
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2437
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:31 pm
Location: Latrobe Pa.

I would mulch the bed heavy with manure and compost material especially leaves just before the ground freezes. You could put early peas in the composted raised beds or use them a month early as a cold frame for lettuce and onions or starting early plants like kohlrabi or cabbage! Plant the seeds right on top of the composted leaves and cover with a good potting or finished compost mix!! Make double use of that raised bed



Return to “Vegetable Gardening Forum”