Cucumber and Watermelon dying - why?

[OrganicTexasMama]

Most of my first-year container garden is going pretty well, but after losing half of my cucumber (Diva) and watermelon (Crimson Sweet) starts before I could get them planted, the ones that were looking so hopeful are almost all now dying.

My biggest cucumber plant (and it was only about 6" tall, at that) has succumbed after all its leaves turned brown and shriveled up:

[img]https://homepage.mac.com/hvbarrett/garden/cuke/Images/1.jpg[/img]

Later - after removing the dead leaves, the newer ones started to die:
[img]https://homepage.mac.com/hvbarrett/garden/cucurbits/Images/2.jpg[/img]

A second cucumber plant seems to be showing signs of the same thing starting:

[img]https://homepage.mac.com/hvbarrett/garden/cucurbits/Images/5.jpg[/img]


Now, my one of the watermelon plants (maybe 3-4" tall) is turning BLACK. The Leafminers are getting them, too. (There's also some residue from spraying milk solution on them, so I'm not entirely sure how much is Leafminers versus dried milk.)

One day:
[img]https://homepage.mac.com/hvbarrett/garden/cucurbits/Images/3.jpg[/img]

Next day:
[img]https://homepage.mac.com/hvbarrett/garden/cucurbits/Images/4.jpg[/img]


I have looked at pictorial guides and read everything I can and I can't figure this out. Is the cucumber wilt a bacterial wilt? I have seen one spotted cucumber beetle (one night when I went out looking for slugs, but found none) so I know those are here. And I know we have leafminers (I've seen the miners as well as flies).

Am I overwatering? Underwatering? Over fertilizing? Under fertilizing? I'm only using liquid fish and liquid seaweed, and I've used a milk/water dilution twice in case it was fungal (though we've been VERY dry here, not our typical humidity by FAR - and *NO* rain whatsoever). I try to water low, always with a hose/sprayer by hand, up close. I'm not sure if I should be letting these dry out more or keeping them well watered, and I probably vacillate too much between those.

But everything else is pretty happy... The tomatoes have started flowering and there are tiny fruit. The strawberries are continuing to fruit (though the birds are stealing them!), though one plant seems to be suffering a bit - but not from this stuff. The zucchini are flowering abundantly as of the last few days and don't seem to be affected by these issues at all.

I know my one issue with these sets of plants is that when I went to plant them, I didn't have enough pots, and they were already dying. So I put the strongest of my starts all in one pot, spaced out well, and waited to see what would stick it out. I removed one that died and replanted one pair from the 6-pack where both in the cell did well. I haven't moved any more because they didn't seem big enough yet. There are 3-4 of each the cucumber and watermelon (these 3-4" plants, still tiny) in a 20" pot. I do have another pot now to replant them in, but I hate to damage them more. I suppose, though, that being overcrowded could be contributing? But, really, they seem to have more than enough room for being SO small still.

Any help much appreciated. I'm awfully sad at the prospect of losing them all.

Thanks,
OTM

[SPierce]

As you mentioned at the end of your post, it may possibly be a space issue IMHO... I had my zucchinis in small pots, and went to move them to bigger ones since they started drooping- everything was pretty much root bound in the smaller pot I had them in. For the watermelons, I would recommend up potting them to their own pots immediately to see if it helps. As far as I can tell, they need a LOT of room to spread and won't really work well in containers due to how big their root systems get, and how far they spread. They may look small up top, but their roots are probably a lot bigger than they seem!

How much space do they have right now per plant? I saw you had them in a 20" pot. What's the drainage like in the pot? Were they grown under lights, or sunlight outdoors?

how often are you watering? How much sun are they getting? How often do you fertilize?

[OrganicTexasMama]

As you mentioned at the end of your post, it may possibly be a space issue IMHO... I had my zucchinis in small pots, and went to move them to bigger ones since they started drooping- everything was pretty much root bound in the smaller pot I had them in. For the watermelons, I would recommend up potting them to their own pots immediately to see if it helps. As far as I can tell, they need a LOT of room to spread and won't really work well in containers due to how big their root systems get, and how far they spread. They may look small up top, but their roots are probably a lot bigger than they seem!

How much space do they have right now per plant? I saw you had them in a 20" pot. What's the drainage like in the pot? Were they grown under lights, or sunlight outdoors?

how often are you watering? How much sun are they getting? How often do you fertilize?

The plants are spread out with seven total in the 20" pot, about 4-6" between each plant? I can go out and measure, but it was the most even distribution I could make with the plants at the time.

I'm not sure on the drainage. It seems to stay fairly moist. The soil is an organic 50/50 potting mix I got from a local garden shop (not big box).

The plants are from Sarah's Starts in Oregon and were trucked in with an order from Azure Standard about a month ago. They are getting about 6 hours of full sun per day. I may be able to move them into the middle of the patio with the tomato where they may get a little more. They are getting more afternoon and evening sun rather than morning, but the sun does start by about 11am where they are right now (a spot that has more room for vines spreading when they actually grow). The tomato and strawberries (and now zucchini) pots are more towards the center of the patio so they are getting more morning sun and lose full sun by 4-5pm. (I think - trying to observe regularly.)

I've gone back and forth between watering daily and every other day. The cucumber/watermelon pot seems moist longer so I have been mostly doing every other day. I'm fertilizing about once a week with either liquid fish or liquid seaweed. I did both last week, but think that was after the wilt started on the first plant? It was before the black on the watermelon, though. I also did milk washes twice last week because there was concern of possible downy mildew. I am not sure we were seeing that at all, but I heard it wouldn't hurt to try...

It's just getting hotter and a little humid. It's been in the 90s the last couple of days.

The only soil I have left now is potting mix mixed 50/50 with leaf compost. I've got zucchini in it now that seem super happy (but I don't think I could kill them if I tried, at this point!), so hopefully the watermelon will like it.

I'm down to one cucumber at this point. I guess I'll leave it where it is and move the (healthy) watermelon to the new pot. I think I'll move the ones that look good and space them out and hope one survives and fruits. That would seem miraculous, at this point!

I am considering ordering more of these. I wonder if it's too late in the season, though? Or maybe a smaller breed of watermelon?

Thanks!

[bogydave]

Cucs, when transplanted don't do well for me if I plant them deeper in the new soil. I learned to keep the old soil/stalk level the same.
When I planted some deeper, they all died. The stalk rotted right below the soil line.
Also they don't like it real wet either, specially when they are small.
Don't know if you planted deeper, but cucs are sensitive plants when young.
When I plant my zucs in the garden, I don't bury them deeper either & they do fine. Zucs seem to be tougher, but even when I harden them off, when they go in the garden, the plant takes a while to adjust to full sun & begin to grow new leaves. The original leaves don't grow much, turn up & sometimes turn light green, kinda white. Then new leaves start & they take off & do well.

I don't fertilize new transplanted starts for a few day/weeks. I wait for them to show signs of new growth & new root development.

Let them have some time, maybe shade them for part of the day. They may make it yet.

The others I don't know much about. May be the same, similar plant type.

[Tate]

I think I might know what one of your problems is. If you got plants from Oregon they probably don't grow well here. I am in the Houston area. I start the majority of my plants from seed indoors or direct sow. I have a suburban raised bed garden of approximately 800 square feet. The suggestions I am giving here are from hundreds of hours of trial and error. There is a book written by Bob Randall call Year Round Fruits, Vegetables and Flowers in Metro Houston. I highly suggest reading it. It tells you what varieties to plant, when to plant, how to plant, how to fertilize, when to harvest, how best to cook it, nutritional value, etc. etc. etc. It really is a blessing to have this reference IMHO. Here is a link to info on it. He is a PHD with over 30 years of experience in our area.

https://www.urbanharvest.org/about/yearroundveg.html

I refer to it before I do anything and I have been doing the backyard suburban garden for about 4 or 5 years.

There is also a lot of gardening advice on the Urban Harvest website.
They also teach gardening classes.

https://www.urbanharvest.org/advice/index.html

The next thing I would suggest is go to Wabash Feed Store or Buchanan's in the Heights to by your transplants if you don't start them yourself from seed based on Bob Randalls recommendations. Wabash and Buchanan's have plants that are proven to grow well in Houston area. They also have the best organic fertilizers, etc. I use Microlife with great success.

We are also lucky to have Nature's Way Resources in the Houston area. It is a long story, but the guy who runs it is a soil chemist. He knows how to engineer the best organic soil available. He started the company because a synthetic fungicide "Captan" nearly killed him. I buy the flower bed and garden mix by the yard in Conroe area where they are located, but Wabash and maybe Buchanan's sells it by the bag. It is FAR superior to anything else I have tried. I have bought probably 15 to 20 yard of the stuff. It works great in containers too. They also have leaf mold compost by the yard (also by the bag at Wabash). I use it as a mulch in my raised beds. It supresses weeds, holds moisture, amends the soil, prevents disease, contains beneficial nematodes that deter pests and is naturally black so it looks good too.

The last thing I would say is that I would be surprised if you had success with watermelons in containers. I have about 800 square feet and not sure I have room for watermelon, although I might try next year.

Hope this helps,

Tate

[OrganicTexasMama]

Thanks for the tips and resources.

I did not plant them below their original level. It's possible they're getting too much water (I'm never quite sure!), though not ALL of them are affected, so I'm not sure if that would be it.

Tate, you do have a point about the plant origins. Still, the rest of the ones I ordered are all doing well. I did try to choose types of plants that do well here (high heat, etc.), though it's entirely possible the specific cultivars aren't as favorable as I'd have hoped.

I'll definitely look into the book! I have pretty well exhausted the two I've been working from, thus far, and welcome input on our local area.

I have been out to Wabash a couple of times (and heard of Buchanan's by reputation but not name). I live out in the 'burbs, so neither is a quick trip for me but I expect I'll be back before long. When I was at Wabash, their selection was overwhelming as well as a bit confusing (finding fully organic starts, for instance, takes some doing). But, I did get some good help there and am very glad for their availability.

Wonderful to hear such good things about Nature's Way Resources. I know I have their leaf mold compost. I'm thinking I have their 50/50, too, but I'd have to check the bags.

Thanks for the tips!

OTM

[rainbowgardener]

Re watermelons in containers, check out jal_ut's post here:

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=131820#131820

re the size of watermelon roots.

And yes the plants as well as the roots get huge, up to 400 sq ft for one plant. Not the best subject for container gardening.

[jal_ut]

I have found that cucumbers, squash, watermelons, and cantaloupes, do best when planted in the ground from seed right where they will grow for the season.

They do not do well started in little pots and transplanted. They do not like their roots messed with. They always suffer transplant shock going from the greenhouse to the outdoors. Both the roots and the vines are quite large and I don't know if they will ever do well in containers. I do not garden in containers.

Yes, the root systems of the cucurbits and melons get quite large. It has been shown that there will be roots as widespread as the vines. Hard to accomplish in a container, however we need to consider what the role of the soil is for our plants. 1. It serves as an anchor for the plant. 2. It provides a source of water for the plant. 3. It provides a source of nutrients for the plant.

It has been demonstrated that we can grow plants without soil. Hydroponics is a method of growing plants using mineral nutrient solutions, in water, without soil. What is necessary is that we provide what the plant needs for growth and survival.

That said, I will not completely rule out melons in containers. I think that if you want to grow melons in a container, I would get a large container, and plant seed, not transplants. Let the seed come up in the sunshine and it will do well. Pay particular attention to keeping the soil damp. The large vines and leaves will transpire lots of water. You will want to fertilize the container a couple of times during the season, but be careful with this. Too much fertilizer will burn your plants.

[SPierce]

I have found that cucumbers, squash, watermelons, and cantaloupes, do best when planted in the ground from seed right where they will grow for the season.

They do not do well started in little pots and transplanted. They do not like their roots messed with. They always suffer transplant shock going from the greenhouse to the outdoors. Both the roots and the vines are quite large and I don't know if they will ever do well in containers. I do not garden in containers.

That brings me a questin of my own, I suppose. I currently have 4 zucchini starts in 6 inch pots, that I plan on putting in ground this weekend. They seem to be doing OK so far, in the move from the 2 inch pots, to the 6 inch ones. Since I've already got them started, obviously, and I don't want to loose all my lovely little plants, is there anything I should do for them before I put them in ground? I have thhem out all day from 8am-11pm, and they are hardening off fairly well...

[Tate]

Thanks for the tips and resources.

I did not plant them below their original level. It's possible they're getting too much water (I'm never quite sure!), though not ALL of them are affected, so I'm not sure if that would be it.

Tate, you do have a point about the plant origins. Still, the rest of the ones I ordered are all doing well. I did try to choose types of plants that do well here (high heat, etc.), though it's entirely possible the specific cultivars aren't as favorable as I'd have hoped.

I'll definitely look into the book! I have pretty well exhausted the two I've been working from, thus far, and welcome input on our local area.

I have been out to Wabash a couple of times (and heard of Buchanan's by reputation but not name). I live out in the 'burbs, so neither is a quick trip for me but I expect I'll be back before long. When I was at Wabash, their selection was overwhelming as well as a bit confusing (finding fully organic starts, for instance, takes some doing). But, I did get some good help there and am very glad for their availability.

Wonderful to hear such good things about Nature's Way Resources. I know I have their leaf mold compost. I'm thinking I have their 50/50, too, but I'd have to check the bags.

Thanks for the tips!

OTM

It sounds like you are on the right track. The Nature's Way 50/50 works great too. I use it for seed starting under lights in my garage. Although I think I might add some vermiculite to it next time I am starting seeds.

Anything you get at Wabash will grow well in the Houston area. If it didn't they wouldn't sell it. Same deal with Buchanan's.

Trust me, you will love that book. He uses a completely organic approach and most of his information is based on his own gardening experience and education. I don't do anything without consulting that book first. If you get an Urban Harvest membership you save 10% at Wabash on everything. My membership has paid for itself many times over. Nature's Way Resources also gives a 10% discount.

If you have room try a raised bed instead of the containers and try to put it where you get the most sun. If you do use containers try to get some at least 3 gallon, but preferably 5. In my experience containers just don't work as well. I have a tomato plant in probably a 20 gallon container. It is only half the size of my tomato plants in my raised beds. Same soil, same fertilize, etc. Not sure why that is, but it is a fact.

Good luck!

Tate

[jal_ut]

Of course you can plant your starts. They may show a bit of stress when they first get into direct sunlight. Give them just a few hours at first and increase it each day for a few days. As they send out new leaves in direct sunlight the new leaves will do fine. It sounds like they are doing well with lots of sun.

[OrganicTexasMama]

I think I'm going to pull the sickly looking watermelon and get an idea of what its roots do look like. I'm very curious! Not wanting to disturb them too much is part of why they're all still together (initially, it was simply because I didn't have another container to put them in and they desperately needed to be potted).

I do have one book (Grow Great Grub, I think it is) that says it's possible to grow watermelons in containers, else I wouldn't have tried. I'm holding out hope that we'll get *something*, but it's certainly up in the air at this point. (Another book intimates that it's possible, but perhaps not worth the work.)

I am still very curious just what it is taking down these plants, though. I can see the space issues resulting in them not growing well, but would it account for the browning of the cuke leaves and the blackening of the watermelon? I've looked high and low and just can't figure out what it is. I keep hoping someone else has seen it before! Thankfully, one cucumber plant is still growing (albeit slowly) and a couple of watermelons still look reasonable. I'll repot them in another 20x12" pot and see how they do.

Wow, I just looked up Urban Harvest's membership rates. Much lower than I was thinking! And, yes, I can see that paying for itself quite quickly with discounts at Wabash. Besides that, the book is $15 off just for being a member! Definitely glad I looked up the membership price rather than just assuming it was high.

We visited a friend today who has an expansive backyard garden. My little container garden will never compare, but it is wonderful to see so much growing so well. Of course, being able to take home a few prizes from the garden was a nice treat, too.

Thanks!
OTM

[applestar]

Did these turn really pale in color -- like lime green -- before getting those... "lesions"?

It's so strange that I keep bringing this up in response to so many different threads lately... Last year, I ran out of potting mix and tried using Bumper Crop organic soil amendment (a mix of compost and humus) with sand. I planted luffa seeds in it, and although they sprouted and started out with great looking cotyledons, the true leaves over time became lime green instead of almost blue green original color and started to show what might have been initial stages of these brown damaged areas on your plants.

I tried watering with AACT but when that didn't help -- didn't get any worse, but didn't get any better -- my solution was to plant them out in the ground with wall-o-water to protect them because it was way too early in the season. They recovered and eventually grew to almost swallow the side of the garage.

I think the Bumber Crop had too much undecomposed organic matter in it, tying up all of the nitrogen. It may have been overly acidic as well though I didn't test it, and lacking in some essential minerals.

[Tate]

Yeah, the Urban Harvest deal is great, plus you get a newsletter each season that has great information in it. If you are interested in classes they offer a lot of them at a reduced price for members. I took "Planning the Fall Garden" class and learned quite a bit. It was well worth the money. There is also an Urban Harvest fruit tree sale every year. I am just now starting my fruit tree foray. I got carried away and bought like 7 trees.

Enjoy!


Tate

[Inailum]

Most of my first-year container garden is going pretty well, but after losing half of my cucumber (Diva) and watermelon (Crimson Sweet) starts before I could get them planted, the ones that were looking so hopeful are almost all now dying.

My biggest cucumber plant (and it was only about 6" tall, at that) has succumbed after all its leaves turned brown and shriveled up:



I have looked at pictorial guides and read everything I can and I can't figure this out. Is the cucumber wilt a bacterial wilt? I have seen one spotted cucumber beetle (one night when I went out looking for slugs, but found none) so I know those are here. And I know we have leafminers (I've seen the miners as well as flies).

Am I overwatering? Underwatering? Over fertilizing? Under fertilizing? I'm only using liquid fish and liquid seaweed, and I've used a milk/water dilution twice in case it was fungal (though we've been VERY dry here, not our typical humidity by FAR - and *NO* rain whatsoever). I try to water low, always with a hose/sprayer by hand, up close. I'm not sure if I should be letting these dry out more or keeping them well watered, and I probably vacillate too much between those.

But everything else is pretty happy... The tomatoes have started flowering and there are tiny fruit. The strawberries are continuing to fruit (though the birds are stealing them!), though one plant seems to be suffering a bit - but not from this stuff. The zucchini are flowering abundantly as of the last few days and don't seem to be affected by these issues at all.

I know my one issue with these sets of plants is that when I went to plant them, I didn't have enough pots, and they were already dying. So I put the strongest of my starts all in one pot, spaced out well, and waited to see what would stick it out. I removed one that died and replanted one pair from the 6-pack where both in the cell did well. I haven't moved any more because they didn't seem big enough yet. There are 3-4 of each the cucumber and watermelon (these 3-4" plants, still tiny) in a 20" pot. I do have another pot now to replant them in, but I hate to damage them more. I suppose, though, that being overcrowded could be contributing? But, really, they seem to have more than enough room for being SO small still.

Any help much appreciated. I'm awfully sad at the prospect of losing them all.

Thanks,
OTM

This same thing happened to me with my cucumbers. They were great until the second I put them in the ground. I took a couple leaves to my local nursery and they told me it was a fungus. I have been spraying Neem Oil on them and giving them some organic plant food and they are beautiful now. Neem Oil won't correct whats already damaged but will prevent further damage. I ended up only losing one plant. I don't know if you can tell in this picture or not but the cucumber on the right still has one of those yucky leaves on the bottom right of it behind that big leaf. I can get a better picture if you would like.
[img]https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/inailum/Garden/DSC03667.jpg[/img]

[Inailum]

As you mentioned at the end of your post, it may possibly be a space issue IMHO... I had my zucchinis in small pots, and went to move them to bigger ones since they started drooping- everything was pretty much root bound in the smaller pot I had them in. For the watermelons, I would recommend up potting them to their own pots immediately to see if it helps. As far as I can tell, they need a LOT of room to spread and won't really work well in containers due to how big their root systems get, and how far they spread. They may look small up top, but their roots are probably a lot bigger than they seem!

How much space do they have right now per plant? I saw you had them in a 20" pot. What's the drainage like in the pot? Were they grown under lights, or sunlight outdoors?

how often are you watering? How much sun are they getting? How often do you fertilize?

I tried cucumbers in a pot last year and I got one little frumpy guy and thats it.

[OrganicTexasMama]

Anita, I would love more pictures of the cucumbers with leaf damage. My zucchini is now exhibiting similar issues. Also, what plant food are you using? I have been using seaweed and fish emulsion, but that's all, so far. Never quite sure what's enough and what's too much. :/

I just sprayed it down with milk solution and am hoping that helps. The two plants were looking fabulous until today. Started with yellow veins on one of them, then by the time I got home, the veins were brown and the edge of one leaf was curled. But other leaves have the brown/black/gray spots that seem more like fungus.

Anyway, I do have one cucumber plant that's growing. And two or three watermelons. But then I mistook soil mites for aphids today and sprayed them down with soap solution in the heat of the day. Ugh! So they are, perhaps, a little sunburned now. Hoping they revive.

[rainbowgardener]

But then I mistook soil mites for aphids today and sprayed them down with soap solution in the heat of the day. Ugh! So they are, perhaps, a little sunburned now. Hoping they revive.

Are you sure your soap solution is really soap? If it was dish "soap," it was probably detergent. Soap is organic, detergent is synthetic/chemical. The detergent is much more likely to burn your plants. For the future, use real soap (Dr. Brunners and other soap products).

[OrganicTexasMama]

But then I mistook soil mites for aphids today and sprayed them down with soap solution in the heat of the day. Ugh! So they are, perhaps, a little sunburned now. Hoping they revive.

Are you sure your soap solution is really soap? If it was dish "soap," it was probably detergent. Soap is organic, detergent is synthetic/chemical. The detergent is much more likely to burn your plants. For the future, use real soap (Dr. Brunners and other soap products).

I used Dr. Bronners liquid soap mixed with water.

The veins on some leaves turned yellow, then brown. I'm hoping it's just sunburn from the ill-timed soap spray.

Though some of the zucchini have a gray spot on them that looks more fungal (though, really, what do I know?!). They were all sprayed, again, with milk solution.