How to break up rock-hard soil?

[bogydave]

I am converting my garden to "raised beds" , "no till", square foot" gardening method. I had good soil but like the method & for me is less work & better results.
Your soil is "Prime" for building some beds on top & start getting good production.
The tough part may be getting enough good soil or compost to get any quantity going.
Since you have most of the plot dedicated now, put in a few beds with good soil & add as you have space & can. Try one & see how it works for you.

A tip I learned with working with hard sandy soil is to get it good & wet before digging or tilling. If possible, lay out a few soaker hoses over night & give it a try the next day. It helps it break up easier (easier is relative) from what you describe, anything helpful is easier.

Start looking around for horse farms with manure piles. You may score a few loads to get a big compost bin started & you're on your way.

Good luck , good gardening.

[TheWaterbug]

The ground you're dealing with is, unfortunately, very common in California: adobe clay. The stuff the missions and Spanish colonial buildings were made of. The buildings that have weathered two and a half centuries of storms and earthquakes. Pretty durable stuff. People (like me) who have moved here from Georgia's famous "red clay" have found the adobe to be an entirely different--and much more difficult--clay. It may be like the New Mexico caliche; I haven't fought with caliche, so can't give a personal comparison.

Now that you know what you're up against with the adobe, consider the design of all the broadforks you've looked at.

Wow! Thanks for the encyclopedic post!

I think I'm convincing myself to invest in the Meadow Creatures model. I searched for reviews, and [url=https://www.littlecitygardens.com/2010/11/broadfork/]here's a writeup[/url] that compares it very favorably to the Johnny's Seeds model that was not robust enough.

And the Meadow Creatures website actually claims that theirs is suitable for breaking new ground, as opposed to others that warn against it.

I'd prefer a longer handle (I'm 6' 1"), but that's not a dealbreaker.

I just have to talk myself into spending the money.

[cynthia_h]

Wow! Thanks for the encyclopedic post!

I think I'm convincing myself to invest in the Meadow Creatures model. I searched for reviews, and [url=https://www.littlecitygardens.com/2010/11/broadfork/]here's a writeup[/url] that compares it very favorably to the Johnny's Seeds model that was not robust enough.

And the Meadow Creatures website actually claims that theirs is suitable for breaking new ground, as opposed to others that warn against it.

I'd prefer a longer handle (I'm 6' 1"), but that's not a dealbreaker.

I just have to talk myself into spending the money.

No kidding about the $$$; serious money for a serious ground-breaking tool. This isn't just a big trowel or something.

I've written a comment at the write-up you found asking which of the four Johnny's broadforks failed on them. (Coincidentally, my gardening girlfriend may want to bring some of *her* California adobe into production! So she and I--mostly "I"--are gathering information on specific performance.) One of Johnny's models is openly described as "lighter" than the others; I sincerely hope it was this one that failed, and not one of the regular, heavy-duty ones.

Re. "encyclopedic": every now and then, my brain hits this gear, and...words come flying out, already in paragraphs. I just do a little brush-up editing and fact-checking, and the post grows almost on its own and grows....

Cynthia

[TZ -OH6]

If you want to put the money into, it a backhoe would be ideal followed by mixing in large amounts of organic matter (wood chips, straw etc), which would take a year or two to settle down but would be long term. On a smaller budget you could rent a power auger/post hole digger and 'swiss cheese' the area to allow roots down into the most soil below the clay.

[rootsy]

You are going to have to mechanically fracture the soil since you live in an area that won't see freezing temperatures and ground penetrating frost...

[TheWaterbug]

I found [url=https://meadowcreature.com/broadfork.php]this scary-looking broadfork[/url] for $250, and the blade-like construction looks like it might be more resistant to bending than a tine with a round cross-section.

OK! I ordered one of these. I emailed Bob at meadowcreatures.com about longer handles yesterday, and he told me he only puts longer handles on the broadforks for local pickup, because otherwise they'd exceed the maximum length for affordable shipment (which is included in the $250 price).

But the ends of the metal handles are just open tubes, so it shouldn't be too difficult to insert some closet rods or something to extend the handles a few inches if I need to. But I'll wait until I actually use it to see if I need the extra leverage.

TZ-yes, I'd thought about "swiss cheesing" the field as well, but I couldn't find the correct word to search for in terms of rental equipment. "power auger" was it. Next season I'll look into renting one; I've already dug out a bunch of holes for this years pumpkin patch with the pickaxe, and I have the blisters to prove it!

What diameter hole do you think I'd need to properly plant a pumpkin? The two-man augers seem to max out at 18".

[farmerlon]

...I had no idea that broadforks were so expensive. The good ones appear to be nearly $200. After watching some of those videos I'm skeptical as to whether I'll be able to get through my sandstone with them. ...[/url].

I own, and use, a Broadfork... and I think your skepticism is warranted for that job. A Broadfork is a great tool for working soil that is already a fairly good garden soil... I would not recommend it for trying to penetrate a heavily compacted or hard-panned soil.
In my experience, it's simply not made for that job (now matter how rugged or expensive the Broadfork is), and it's not going to work.

[TZ -OH6]

Regarding pumpkin holes. It is important that you undertand what the roots are doing. It would be best to have a shallow layer of good soil on top for a wide area of nutrient uptake with spaced holes going down to the moisture, so a single deep hole or any size may/will cause problems.



This describes the root behaviour of many garden vegetables.

https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137toc.html

[TheWaterbug]

This describes the root behaviour of many garden vegetables.

https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137toc.html

That's an impressive book. Here's the scary part:

Method of Root Study.--In the present studies the direct method of root examination has been employed. It has been used by the writer and his coworkers in the excavation of hundred of root systems during the past 14 years and has proved very satisfactory. By the side of the plants to, be examined, a long trench is dug to a depth of about 5 feet and of convenient width. This affords an open face into which one may dig with hand pick and ice pick and thus uncover and make a careful examination of the entire root system. This apparently simple process, however, requires much practice, not a little patience, and wide experience with soil structure. In every case several plants were examined at each stage of development to insure an adequate idea of the general root habit. As the work of excavation progressed, the trench was deepened, if necessary, so that finally the soil underlying the deepest roots was removed. Frequently, the trenches reached depths of 6 to 11 feet (Fig. 2).

There's a fine photo of a study site, too.

I think this is why Man domesticated and bred that beast of burden commonly known as the "grad student."

Back on topic, it looks like the bulk of pumpkin rooting occurs in the top 12 inches of soil, despite taproots extending as deeply as 6 feet. Of course this is _not_ going to happen in my field any time soon!

But in that top 1-2 feet, the laterals sometimes extended out to 17.5".

So it looks like getting the top 12" into reasonable shape would be more important than digging a deep "well" for the taproots, especially if I have poor drainage.

[TheWaterbug]

...I had no idea that broadforks were so expensive. The good ones appear to be nearly $200. After watching some of those videos I'm skeptical as to whether I'll be able to get through my sandstone with them. ...[/url].

I own, and use, a Broadfork... and I think your skepticism is warranted for that job. A Broadfork is a great tool for working soil that is already a fairly good garden soil... I would not recommend it for trying to penetrate a heavily compacted or hard-panned soil.
In my experience, it's simply not made for that job (now matter how rugged or expensive the Broadfork is), and it's not going to work.

That's OK; I have reasonable expectations for it. There's significant variation in my soil across the field (it's approx 60' x 70'), and there are places (such as where I'm planting corn) where it feels like that broadfork might do some good.

In the center "parking lot" section, I'll test out the 'fork, and if it looks like it's just too much for it, I'll look into alternatives. Like dynamite, perhaps

Gypsum's been recommended a couple of of times in this thread as a longer-term solution. From my understanding of what I've read, it percolates into the soil over time and chemically reverses or inhibits the crystallization that creates the hardpan. Is that more or less correct?

[rootsy]

You really need a sub-soiler (ripper) pulled through there @ about 18" deep. All depends on how much area you have and the ability to get equipment in there. Takes some HP and weight to move a 4 shank... Bout 250 HP here in the Midwest...

[gooberfarmer]

Here is a link for a single shank one.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/agriculture-farming-ranching/3-point-equipment/3-point-ground-engaging-equipment/countyline-reg-sub-soiler-2128333

My guess is a 70HP tractor would do the job. You can rent them around here from rental places.

[TheWaterbug]

That's OK; I have reasonable expectations for it. There's significant variation in my soil across the field (it's approx 60' x 70'), and there are places (such as where I'm planting corn) where it feels like that broadfork might do some good.

In the center "parking lot" section, I'll test out the 'fork, and if it looks like it's just too much for it, I'll look into alternatives. Like dynamite, perhaps

OK! The massive Meadow Creatures broadfork arrived yesterday by Fedex Ground. It's a piece of work. It really does feel indestructible.

I used it for about 30 minutes today, 'forking the two aisles between three rows of corn seedlings. I've been soaking this area for the last 24 hrs with a dripline, but it was still pretty hard (and this is my "good" area).

I had to stand on the fork and rock it side-to-side and back-and-forth about 10-15 times to get it sunk all the way in, and then it took nearly all my weight and leverage to lever it up. It felt like I was digging up 18" x 18" paving stones! Once they came up they kinda broke apart into sections a bit, and when I released the fork, dust came shooting out of the cracks in the ground like it does in the movies when you open an old mummy coffin

I slid ~8-10 inches back and did it again, and again, and again. In 30 minutes I forked two aisles about 30' long each, and it actually breaks up an area about 2' wide. So it's definitely doable for a morning activity. I just wished I'd forked this area _before_ I'd planted my corn.

I also tried it in the "parking lot" area, and it's definitely tougher here, but it does work. I had to rock it on both axes at least 20-25 times to get it sunk in, but I didn't have to jump on it or do anything crazy. And this soilcrete is too hard to lever up a full 14" depth with one pull. I had to back out to half-depth, lever it up, then plunge back in and lever up the bottom portion. All accompanied by the "mummy dust" each time. I'd guess that I'd work through this area at 1/3 to 1/2 the speed that I'm working through the "good" areas.

It's definitely work, but it's not difficult work. It's about 10x easier than the pickaxe, and 4-5x faster as well. The hardest part is balancing on the fork when there's only 1/2" sunk into the ground.

I'm leaving on a week-long business trip tomorrow (hence all the other threads about drip watering), but when I get back I'll try to shoot some video of me forking the field.

[TheWaterbug]

Here's another followup on my hard soil. I needed to excavate a bit so a structural engineer could look at the footings of my retaining wall, so here's what my soil cross section looks like:
[img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3552590/SoilLayers.jpg[/img]
My foot is about a foot long , so you can see the 4-6 inches of good topsoil, followed by ~6 inches of horrible compacted sand, followed by thick, black clay that evidently goes all the way to China.

Here's my new broadfork, with its 14" tines laid against the layers:
[img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3552590/SoilLayersAndBroadfork.jpg[/img]

If I drive it all the way in, it'll pick up the soil and sand, and maybe a few inches of the clay.

[slyguy]

cool. turned up any big stones yet? any tines bend or give at all?

[TheWaterbug]

cool. turned up any big stones yet? any tines bend or give at all?

Not yet. I've felt the tines hit a few rocks on the way down, but if I rock it enough times it usually either breaks through or slides by. No damage to any of the tines so far.

I've yanked on the handles as hard as I can, and I'm 6' 1", 215#, so if it were bendable, I'd have bent it by now. I think this thing is truly indestructible. You have to heft this thing to appreciate how heavy duty it is.

The only downside is that a smaller person might have a difficult time handling it. It's a good thing my smaller person has absolutely zero interest in helping me in the garden

[TheWaterbug]

I'm leaving on a week-long business trip tomorrow (hence all the other threads about drip watering), but when I get back I'll try to shoot some video of me forking the field.

Well, it's two months later than I promised, but I've finally posted [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KBVJnKgsnw]some video of the broadfork in action[/url]:

[img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3552590/BroadforkVideo.jpg[/img]

I had my 7-year-old kid holding the camera (actually my iPhone), and it was so shaky that I kept waiting for a chance to re-shoot it, but I never really got the chance. So I decided that shaky video is better than no video!

[sastpierre]

We have clay soil here, that is extremely muddy when wet. When its dry, its hard as rock. I worked my garden when it was moist in the spring, and mixed in plenty of peat moss, mulch & play sand.

The moss & mulch keep moisture in your soil, and the sand keeps it from clumping together.

[TheWaterbug]

cool. turned up any big stones yet? any tines bend or give at all?

Not yet.

Well, now I have. I just forked up some space for two Altantic Giants, and I dug these out:



That's a 5 dollar bill on there, for scale. I thought those were big, and then I pried this monster out:



It probably weighs more than 100 lbs. No damage to the fork at all. And my rototiller certainly wouldn't have gotten it out . I have to say that I like my broadfork more every time I use it.

I also extracted about a wheelbarrow full of smaller rocks:



These were churned up by the tiller, and then I raked them out or extracted them by hand. What do other people do when they have a field full or rocks? It's a good thing I'm not trying to grow carrots or anything like that, here.

edit: added some notes about the fork

[luvthesnapper]

They sell them. They sell by the pound, around here.

[DoubleDogFarm]

I'll give you $4 for every rock that comes with a $5 dollar bill.

Eric

[webmaster]

I'll pay $4.50.

You may want to consider starting a new discussion with the question (How do I dispose of rocks from garden?) as the title of the discussion. That way more members will be likely to see it and possibly offer more answers.

[rainbowgardener]

They sell them. They sell by the pound, around here.

People buy rocks?

I use mine to line the paths, "mulch" around the outside of raised beds. The ones like the big one make good stepping stones or steps down all my slopes.

[sheeshshe]

I use the rocks that I dig up, to hold down the newspaper or cardboard that I put down to ward off the weeds

[!potatoes!]

at first, I wondered why you used a $5 bill instead of a $1. oh, of course, 'cause it's bigger. it's for scale, after all.

I dug a few giants like that in the last place we gardened. one was a 1x2x3 foot block that ruined a good digging fork...grrr. wished I had a broader fork than I had...

[TheWaterbug]

I'll give you $4 for every rock that comes with a $5 dollar bill.

Sold! Shipping will be $184.50.

[TheWaterbug]

You may want to consider starting a new discussion with the question (How do I dispose of rocks from garden?) as the title of the discussion. That way more members will be likely to see it and possibly offer more answers.

Well, I'm not so much interested in how to dispose of them (I'll just dump mine in the corner) as in how to get them out of the planting areas. I suppose I could have built a screen-door type of contraption with 1" mesh or something to screen the rocks. If I were any root crops I probably have to.

Hmm. Maybe one could build a screening table with an incline and an eccentric agitator, with spout at the bottom for the wheelbarrow. Naaah. Too much work for me

[jal_ut]

Its nice to have a few rocks. In my garden, you can't find a rock to huck at a stray dog.

Nice fork.

Around here some farmers use what is called a sub-soiler to loosen soil deep down. It is two heavy duty tines about 30 inches long mounted on a tool bar on the back of a tractor. They are said to dig two feet deep. I have never operated a tractor so equipped. I have thought it would be good to go over my space with such a tool, but don't have one.

[DoubleDogFarm]

I'll pay $4.50.

Hey now! I'll haul them off for free, but you have to load them.

Eric

[jal_ut]

That is a nice looking tool. Good guarantee comes with it too. I like the metal handles. I know all about wooden handles on tools you pry with. I have snapped my share of such.

Aside from that, it is well to note that most root activity is in the top six inches of soil. This is why only shallow cultivation (2 inches max) is used after you have plants growing, so as not to damage roots. Yes, many plants will go much deeper, but you don't need to worry about it. If you can loosen down a foot deep with the fork, you can have a great garden.

If the plants do go deeper even in the compacted soil, over time that deeper area will improve too because of the decomposition of the roots that went deeper. I don't know how they do it, but do know that roots have an amazing ability to penetrate compacted soils and even gravelly/rocky soils.

[luvthesnapper]

People buy rocks?

Absolutely. Pea gravel is about $3.50, for 40 lbs., around here. That sounds like alot, but it isn't. If I had rocks, I'd look around my area for places that sell rock, and see what stone like I had was going for. Or give it to someone here that wants it. That big one looks like a 2 dollar stone.

I found a huge roll of carpet on the side of the road, a while back. It was dry, and a little faded, but it was free. Put it on CL for 50 dollars, and sold it like 3 days later. A lady wanted it for painting on. You just never know.

[TheWaterbug]

That is a nice looking tool. Good guarantee comes with it too. I like the metal handles. I know all about wooden handles on tools you pry with. I have snapped my share of such.

I would like to have slightly longer handles, because I'm 6'1" and about 215#, so I could use the extra leverage if it were available.

Meadow Creature has suggested that a short piece of oak closet rod could be turned a bit and grooved (to account for the weld seam on the interior of the handle) to make an extension, but I haven't tried that yet.

This piece of ground was really something. In addition to the rocks, there was also a layer of something that looked and felt like poorly poured concrete. I couldn't get the 'fork through it without a lot of stomping, so in some areas I had to fork it "backwards," e.g. start from the already-forked side and pry up from there.

Once it was pried up I could break it up a bit, and then the tiller took care of it.

I'm wondering if someone didn't pour out some old concrete from their wheelbarrow onto this area 30 years ago.

Is old concrete good/bad for plants? I suppose I won't have to add any calcium for awhile!

[Dillbert]

part of our side area and the area behind us is glacial till. and really dang shallow stuff, just for jollies.

so, stop picking on them there pebbles!

for the last 40 ft of fence posts I was chipping through VW Bug size rocks..... as in a 40' boom excavator with a hydraulic&pneumatic "business end"

just pile 'em up and sell 'em off to a fossil hunter (g)

[TheWaterbug]

for the last 40 ft of fence posts I was chipping through VW Bug size rocks..... as in a 40' boom excavator with a hydraulic&pneumatic "business end"

Just plant some lichens and wait a few thousand years

Yeah, I should know better than to complain when there's always someone out there with worse!