All,
I'm a newbie to the forum. I'm starting a vegetable garden to teach my 4 year old son all about vegetables, life, stewardship, work, and (especially) patience. We plan on growing the standard fare of cucumbers, tomatoes, bell peppers, etc.
I have a small area about 20 feet by 5-6 feet around my pool pump. Its location makes building a raised bed awkward at best. Plus, I'd like to use the extra work it might take to get the soil to work to teach various things to my son, as I learn myself.
I live in Dallas, the area gets plenty of sun and is HOT in the summer, being on the south side of the house (albeit between two houses and wth an 8 foot fence on the southern long edge.
The soil is reddish but on the light-brown side of the scale and sandy. I sent a 6" depth sample mixed from 6 locations to A&M and got back the following results:
Ph: 8.1
Conductivity: 62
Nitrate: 2 (extra low)
Phosphorus: 34 (low)
Potassium: 62 (very low)
Calcium: 3716 (high)
Magnesium: 44 (moderate)
Sulfur: 13 (moderate)
Iron: 5.49 (moderate)
Zinc: 6.32 (high)
Manganese: 4.74 (high)
Copper: 2.59 (very high)
Boron: ---
Organic Matter: 0.56%
I am a total newbie, but a big research type, so this is the track I'm on. I'm not set in my ways, so let me know if I need to change course.
I'm inclined to believe the Ph is my biggest problem and I should be somewhere between 6 and 7 (slightly acidic instead of moderately alkaline).
I'm guessing that the nitrogen situation is pretty bad as well.
From my research, I think that underpinning all of this is that my low % of organic matter is going to make stabilizing everything difficult unless I get it corrected.
The sandy soil isn't going to do me any favors in the hot climate with water retention.
Here's my current plan:
Use Peat Moss as an amendment to lower Ph and help with water retention. I'll use 2.5# per 10 sq feet.
Use an ammonia-sulfate based fetilizer to lower ph more and add nitrogen. per this article: https://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/lowerpH.html
The fertilizer recommendation on the A&M report is:
1.3lb N/1000sqft
1.3lb P2O5/1000sqft
2.5lb K2O/1000sqft
0.25 lb Mg/1000sqft
Additional 1lb N/1000sqft every 4-6 weeks
I'm going to build a 55 gallon drum composter to teach my son about that as well.
-
DallasSoxFan
- Newly Registered
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:55 am
- Location: Dallas
Personally, I think that you are making good use of your research, DallasSoxFan.
First off, I'd be curious what the testing service means by "Copper: 2.59 (very high)." Copper can be too high and actually reach toxic levels for plants.
Using organic material to reduce pH seems like a real good idea and peat moss is required in lesser amounts than manure and compost to do that. Still . . . compost could reduce the need for additional fertilizer. And, as a guy who grows veggies organically, let me say that you can kill 2 stones with 1 bird by beefing up the compost with organic fertilizer while increasing the % of the organic matter in the soil at the same time
.
Now, having said all that, I do use ammonium sulfate in my ornamental gardens with their high pH soil. At one time, it was a part of my veggie gardening. Then I "graduated" to just using ammonium sulfate in the compost pile but that approach to compost making ended probably 12 years ago. Organic fertilizers are expensive but some of the nutrients aren't used up quickly and provide benefits in the following year's garden.
I once converted a 55 gallon drum into a compost bin and found that it was just too small for the purposes intended. But, that may just be me. This part of the Wild West is quite arid and I find it best to situate the compost pile with a lot of ground contact. My bins were dug down so that they are about 8" below grade.
The folks at [url=https://www.sustland.umn.edu/implement/soil_ph.html]the University of Minnesota[/url] tell us that you would need about 15 pounds of compost to get the same results as 2.5 lbs of peat moss but, you might want to think about it.
Steve
First off, I'd be curious what the testing service means by "Copper: 2.59 (very high)." Copper can be too high and actually reach toxic levels for plants.
Using organic material to reduce pH seems like a real good idea and peat moss is required in lesser amounts than manure and compost to do that. Still . . . compost could reduce the need for additional fertilizer. And, as a guy who grows veggies organically, let me say that you can kill 2 stones with 1 bird by beefing up the compost with organic fertilizer while increasing the % of the organic matter in the soil at the same time
.Now, having said all that, I do use ammonium sulfate in my ornamental gardens with their high pH soil. At one time, it was a part of my veggie gardening. Then I "graduated" to just using ammonium sulfate in the compost pile but that approach to compost making ended probably 12 years ago. Organic fertilizers are expensive but some of the nutrients aren't used up quickly and provide benefits in the following year's garden.
I once converted a 55 gallon drum into a compost bin and found that it was just too small for the purposes intended. But, that may just be me. This part of the Wild West is quite arid and I find it best to situate the compost pile with a lot of ground contact. My bins were dug down so that they are about 8" below grade.
The folks at [url=https://www.sustland.umn.edu/implement/soil_ph.html]the University of Minnesota[/url] tell us that you would need about 15 pounds of compost to get the same results as 2.5 lbs of peat moss but, you might want to think about it.
Steve
-
The Bearded Farmer
- Senior Member
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:23 am
- Location: Laureldale, PA zone 6/7
That was very smart getting a soil sample like that.
DigitS is right about the copper. I would get that tested further, or call them and talk to someone.
In that soil sample I would be concerned with your basic NPK values and the amount of organic matter you have. Not sure how new you are but... NPK stands for Nitrogen/phosphorus/Potasium. These are your major components in plant growth/health. If you look at your numbers, all of those items are either considered low or very low. Your organic matter is under 1% as well. You are correct on the PH too.
I try to go as organically as possible. I would consider staying away from those types of fertilizer. Try finding some local aged manure and till that in maybe twice in a 2 week span. I would look up a compost NPK chart and see what items have the highest values to start your pile off with.
In the mean time I think you are correct in needing to add peat moss to your soil. That should make it slightly more acidic along with leaf mold, and sawdust or some undyed woody mulch.
Gardening is an awsome thing to teach a child and will be a bonding experience even in later years when he has his own house and starts his own garden. This is how most good gardeners get their start.
Get to building that composter!!
DigitS is right about the copper. I would get that tested further, or call them and talk to someone.
In that soil sample I would be concerned with your basic NPK values and the amount of organic matter you have. Not sure how new you are but... NPK stands for Nitrogen/phosphorus/Potasium. These are your major components in plant growth/health. If you look at your numbers, all of those items are either considered low or very low. Your organic matter is under 1% as well. You are correct on the PH too.
I try to go as organically as possible. I would consider staying away from those types of fertilizer. Try finding some local aged manure and till that in maybe twice in a 2 week span. I would look up a compost NPK chart and see what items have the highest values to start your pile off with.
In the mean time I think you are correct in needing to add peat moss to your soil. That should make it slightly more acidic along with leaf mold, and sawdust or some undyed woody mulch.
Gardening is an awsome thing to teach a child and will be a bonding experience even in later years when he has his own house and starts his own garden. This is how most good gardeners get their start.
Get to building that composter!!
Save yourself a TON of work and go ahead and make that raised bed. Just make sure you can reach into it from either side so you never have to walk in it, mashing the soil down.
Now that you have that nice raised bed built, the soil it's built over really doesn't matter that much. You're going to be making your *own* soil for those veggies growing in that raised bed!
No worries about the alkaline, calcitic soil; you can tailor it to the needs of your planned veggies.
Somewhere to start--but not the only place to end up!--is Mel Bartholomew's Square Foot Gardening. He was partially responsible for the raised-bed phenomenon now so popular in the U.S. Not having to spend years improving the whole yard, but rather being able to start RIGHT THIS YEAR in at least a little part of the yard, is the draw of raised-bed veggie growing.
There are kits for raised beds, and of course you can make your own from purchased or found materials. Mine were made from found materials (one from concrete blocks; the others from found shelving/lumber).
Make sure the raised bed will receive at least 6 hours of sunlight during the growing season (I'm concerned about that 8-foot fence). There are ways of providing shade for the plants if the temps get too high, but sunlight can't be faked!
Happy gardening!
Cynthia H. (whose aunt lives in Fort Worth)
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9
Now that you have that nice raised bed built, the soil it's built over really doesn't matter that much. You're going to be making your *own* soil for those veggies growing in that raised bed!
No worries about the alkaline, calcitic soil; you can tailor it to the needs of your planned veggies.Somewhere to start--but not the only place to end up!--is Mel Bartholomew's Square Foot Gardening. He was partially responsible for the raised-bed phenomenon now so popular in the U.S. Not having to spend years improving the whole yard, but rather being able to start RIGHT THIS YEAR in at least a little part of the yard, is the draw of raised-bed veggie growing.
There are kits for raised beds, and of course you can make your own from purchased or found materials. Mine were made from found materials (one from concrete blocks; the others from found shelving/lumber).
Make sure the raised bed will receive at least 6 hours of sunlight during the growing season (I'm concerned about that 8-foot fence). There are ways of providing shade for the plants if the temps get too high, but sunlight can't be faked!
Happy gardening!
Cynthia H. (whose aunt lives in Fort Worth)
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9
I'm not sure where you are in Dallas, but my FAVORITE nursery is North Haven Gardens in northeast Dallas. (Am I allowed to post their info here?) They have some really sharp garden advisors and tend to urge people to go organic (also what I recommend). They can help you with locally available products, they have loads of free classes (not as many right now, but more starting soon.
I'm a big believer in compost to fix nearly everything that ails your soil. There are organic amendments that can balance nearly anything your soil needs. For example: Texas greensand is very cheap locally for potassium and blood meal direct to your soil (if you don't mind an animal product) AND into your compost can help boost nitrogen quickly, a little dried molasses can help kick start your soil microbes, especially when used with compost, etc. If the peeps at Northaven can't answer your questions, SOMEONE here will know the answer. I've found this to be one of the most informative forums I've ever found.
I also agree with digitS' that the 55 gal drum might be too small to produce the amount of compost you will need for this much square footage. I have 2 piles that are 4'x4'x3' and 2 compost tumblers (each about equal to 55 gal drums) and can't quite keep up with what I need for my veggie and flower beds. I have purchased at least 3 full cubic yards to get beds started (over the last 3 years) and I'm about 1 heap short of keeping up with the maintenance of all beds (and I'm always on the hunt for more sources of compostables). I've got about 100 sq feet of veggies in raised beds (uses 2-3 times as much compost as flowers) and about 750 sq feet of flowers.
If you were to bring in enough for a good 3-4 inches of compostables to get started, your drum might be enough to keep you going after that.
Hope this helps some. I will also pm you the info for Northaven if you are interested.
Sharon
I'm a big believer in compost to fix nearly everything that ails your soil. There are organic amendments that can balance nearly anything your soil needs. For example: Texas greensand is very cheap locally for potassium and blood meal direct to your soil (if you don't mind an animal product) AND into your compost can help boost nitrogen quickly, a little dried molasses can help kick start your soil microbes, especially when used with compost, etc. If the peeps at Northaven can't answer your questions, SOMEONE here will know the answer. I've found this to be one of the most informative forums I've ever found.
I also agree with digitS' that the 55 gal drum might be too small to produce the amount of compost you will need for this much square footage. I have 2 piles that are 4'x4'x3' and 2 compost tumblers (each about equal to 55 gal drums) and can't quite keep up with what I need for my veggie and flower beds. I have purchased at least 3 full cubic yards to get beds started (over the last 3 years) and I'm about 1 heap short of keeping up with the maintenance of all beds (and I'm always on the hunt for more sources of compostables). I've got about 100 sq feet of veggies in raised beds (uses 2-3 times as much compost as flowers) and about 750 sq feet of flowers.
If you were to bring in enough for a good 3-4 inches of compostables to get started, your drum might be enough to keep you going after that.
Hope this helps some. I will also pm you the info for Northaven if you are interested.
Sharon
One reply suggested adding sawdust. Speaking from experience, if the sawdust hasn't been composted for awhile; stay away from it. Fresh sawdust and wood chips suck nitrogen out of your soil like a vacuum cleaner.
It took me a full year of adding nitrogen to my beds to correct my mistake and I thought the sawdust/horse manure was well composted. It wasn't.
Ted
It took me a full year of adding nitrogen to my beds to correct my mistake and I thought the sawdust/horse manure was well composted. It wasn't.
Ted