Remember a clean garden is a happy garden.

[cynthia_h]

I have 25 raised beds. When I'm weeding, I pull from one bed and drop on the one behind me. Maybe this is biodynamics. Should I be weeding clockwise or counterclockwise. I'm trying for less and less energy gardening. Weeds are mulch, mulch is less weeding. Keep the soil covered.

....

Clockwise (deosil) or counterclockwise (widdershins)? Whichever word feels/sounds better when you say it! I have no idea whether it's biodynamic, though....

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[DoubleDogFarm]

I like deosil or Sunwise.

[applestar]

My original post was mainly to make a joke about giving my bugs a bath.

I got your joke, BTW, Gixx. Hence, my "spit and polish" comment.
"Igor" voice (with a bit of Gollum from LOTR thrown in): "Niiiice bugsses... Shiny, cleeeeaaann, bugsses.... Mwahahaha."

[Ozark Lady]

In a goat forum that I am in, there is recommendations for parasite programs one for nothern folks and one for the south. It is stated:
With identical management, identical feeds etc. The parasite and disease load will be heavier on the southern animals, because of the warmth, the longer summer temps give more generations per year.

Also soil deficiencies are not evenly spread over the globe.
If your soil is copper deficient and you grow plants there, and mulch and compost onsite only... your copper deficiency will remain. I mean how many dandelions can you grow? Surely not enough to fix a copper deficiency. And many pests and diseases are more predominant in areas with one or more deficiency. It has been proven animals raised on copper deficient soil have more parasites than animals on copper supplements or where soils are not deficient. They are also prone to disease due to the soil being deficient. And it is by area, so if you buy local feeds, the problem remains.

And then we see some areas, when this was wilderness, were prairies, some were forests and some were deserts that have been tamed, there are different challenges in all these areas.

And it is not fair to say: Well, I don't deal with early frosts it must be your management... that is the equivalent of saying to a southern gardener... those bugs are your mismanagement, your poor gardening! I call foul, unfair! With identical management, the northern areas will still have later frosts in spring, earlier in fall, and the southern areas will have more bugs, and diseases to deal with... fact of life!

Gumbo has a wet garden at the moment, he will have disease issues due to this wetness, and likely fungus too, not his fault, not his mismanagement... just fact of life! Whether he tills, or is a permie guru, the location does affect lots of issues! Would I trade less bugs and disease for more cold weather and snow and ice? No way! I would consider moving farther south, farther into bugs and disease, but not north into more cold and snow.

[jal_ut]

I hope I did it right I come to find out that I should have used "soap' not "Detergent", I hope I didn't hurt them. Well now I have a reclaimed space and a ton of nice clean bugs. I think I did good today. Oh I also found a few SVB both worm and adult as well as cucumber beetles they all got to take a bath too. Every thing is so squeaky clean.

That works for me! Nice clean bugs. I use Dawn dishwashing detergent, and it works for me, but everytime I say it I get abused because of using detergent instead of SOAP. Well, you try to find SOAP. If you look up the MSDS on all the stuff called soap, you may be surprised. Technically detrergent means a cleaning product. Even water qualifies. Hey if it "cleans" the bugs and doesn't burn the plants I am OK with it.

A clean garden to me means no living weeds. There can be all sorts of dead and uprooted weeds and other organic matter scattered, but that is just fine with me. Weeds and plants that are finished are mulch and can stay where they land. I don't take anything off the garden, but the edible portions.

Years ago in my early gardening days, I would spray everything a couple of times to keep the bugs down. I have long since quit doing that and find that I have less problems with bugs than before. Perhaps it is because of more predators? I don't know. I will use some DE on the cabbage, but mostly things do quite well without too much bug damage. I am fortunate that our cold winters will kill lots of wintering bugs. This is especially so when the temperatures go cold before we get an insulating blanket of snow and the ground freezes a few inches deep.

Keep washing those bugs.

[jal_ut]

there are different challenges in all these areas.

You hit it on the head with that statement. Yes, every plot has its own mini environment and what works for me doesn't necessarily work for you. We can swap ideas, but the test is to find what works for each of us.

[gixxerific]

there are different challenges in all these areas.

You hit it on the head with that statement. Yes, every plot has its own mini environment and what works for me doesn't necessarily work for you. We can swap ideas, but the test is to find what works for each of us.

That is so true Jal. When I read OL's post I was thinking of you. You might have one of the furthest climates from the "norm" of all the U.S. members on HG.

By the way I did know about the soap vs. detergent ordeal before this. That is why I threw that crack in there.

Yes Jal you are VERY different from me you have early than late extreme cold, here it does get pretty cold but not for that long. But the summer is what kills us gardeners and not the bugs. It's hot an humid and the bugs just love it.

Just looking at my soon to be removed pumpkin patch (!&@*&@#*@Q&# SVB) there is another colony of squash bugs over there as well. Just running rampant. Nothing I seem to do matters. You all should see the number of little orange casings around these plantings which I assume are from the SVB's.

I just don't know what to do anymore I have NEVER EVER EVER had an infestation even close to this. EVER!!!!!

[DoubleDogFarm]

Ozark,

With identical management, identical feeds etc. The parasite and disease load will be heavier on the southern animals, because of the warmth, the longer summer temps give more generations per year

I don't doubt this one bit. That is why we should have different gardening strategies. (not sure why this in a big font)

I mean how many dandelions can you grow

Only enough for my salad and no more. All soil are not equal, but we do the best we can. It's far better to return the vegetation to the soil, then to remove and discard. I have over the years introduced [url=https://www.azomite.com/]Azomite[/url]to the soil. It has 70 active minerials and trace elements. Azomite can also be added to animal feed. Something like 10%. This is a mined product and has it's own issuses.

And it is not fair to say: Well, I don't deal with early frosts it must be your management... that is the equivalent of saying to a southern gardener... those bugs are your mismanagement, your poor gardening! I call foul, unfair! With identical management, the northern areas will still have later frosts in spring, earlier in fall, and the southern areas will have more bugs, and diseases to deal with... fact of life!

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change"

Can you point to the post that made these comments? I find it interesting. I didn't know we could control Mother nature. Well, we can sort of. I'm surprised that floating row covers are not being taken advantage of. They will do both. Raise the temperatures by 4 degrees, protection from light frost. Control insects and birds. I have not crunched any numbers, but I bet the covers are cheaper then insecticides over the long run. We need to adapt.

Gumbo has a wet garden at the moment, he will have disease issues due to this wetness, and likely fungus too, not his fault, not his mismanagement... just fact of life! Whether he tills, or is a permie guru, the location does affect lots of issues! Would I trade less bugs and disease for more cold weather and snow and ice? No way! I would consider moving farther south, farther into bugs and disease, but not north into more cold and snow.

I'm sorry about the whole Katrina problems. Under 3 plus feet of water. sheesh. Not his fault, but he is living on the planet. We are the problem. Global warming is a whole nother subject.

Gumbo should not be tilling wet clay soil. One of the quickest way to destroy soil structure and create hardpan.

Also when you say North. You need to more specific. The Northwest has far less rain and snow then Northeast.

Eric

[Ozark Lady]

I wasn't quoting anyone, anywhere in my post. There are no references. I said it in the post that you highlighted!

I see lots of folks on here with opinions, and they don't have to prove what they believe. Like global warming, not proven, and very political, so let's don't go there.

[jal_ut]

Right now at noon it is 83 degs, clear and sunny, with a relative humidity of 23%. I haven't seen a squash bug, vine borer, nor cucumber beetle this year......... knocking on wood.

So what is really giving your plants stress, does not exist here. I am loving it. (dancing)

You could go to some strong spray and spray the whole squash patch. Anything you may put on it will also take the beneficials too, but then there may not be many of those round or you wouldn't have the problem. Its a decision you will have to make. You like most of us on this board would rather avoid anything that drastic. Would you use pyrethrins?

Have any DE? Take your vacuum out and put it on blow and aim the output at the squash patch and sprinkle the dust in the stream. My son does this on apricot trees to keep the earwigs off. Stand upwind!!!

Something I tried on Colorado Potato Beetles was to catch about 50 or more of them then put them in the blender with some water and liquify them. Then strain it and put it in your sprayer and go spray the potatoes. The theory is that every infestation carries the organism of its destruction. All you have to do is spread it around. Hey! The beetles left.

Edit to add: If you decide to hit the whole patch with something, please do it in the afternoon after the blossoms close. (for the sake of the bees)

[Ozark Lady]

We are pushing 90 and the humidity is at 44%. But the real stress is:
We haven't had a decent rain since May. We get an inch and in a month we get another inch.
This is no where close to our usual rain. It is all being dumped on folks who already have too much water.

I haven't used a true pesticide on my garden ever, oh I use Bt, milk, and occassionally DE. But, these bugs have me to the point of deciding, till it all under, solarize it and forget 2010, or go for the poisons. Nothing is having any effect on the harlequin bugs, and only lots of water is helping the plants fight off the grasshoppers. Since I don't use pesticides, I should have a decent balance, in theory. In reality, I won't get the good guys until I have enough bad guys to support a good population of predators and even then, it takes time to breed them. Then when they eat all the bad guys, they will starve. And the battle begins anew.

If I was only dealing with drought, or only dealing with bugs, then it would be easier, but one stress leads to the other. Lack of water, drives bugs to leave the weed patches and hit my garden, since it is watered.
Then the bugs bite the plant, and it is losing fluids, which is a moisture loss and increases the issue, and more bugs, and no rain! Mulch is too dry to break down and nourish the soil, so it is also not helping at this point. I am having to resort to tea for the plants to get anything at all.

[DoubleDogFarm]

I see lots of folks on here with opinions, and they don't have to prove what they believe

True, and I hope it continues. This is a lot more informing, educating then a high five for some tomato we have grown. Don't get me wrong, I like seeing everyones gardens and harvest, but what were your techniques.

don't have to prove what they believe

Can 2 billion Chinese be wrong. YES!

Would you use pyrethrins

Here is my anwser!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethrin
Toxicity
Pyrethrins are used in many varieties of insecticide, fogging products and in some pet products. Care should be taken when using this substance around humans and animals. Overdose and toxicity can result in a variety of symptoms, especially in pets, including drooling, lethargy, muscle tremors, vomiting, seizures and death.[5] Toxicity symptoms in humans include asthmatic breathing, sneezing, nasal stuffiness, headache, nausea, incoordination, tremors, convulsions, facial flushing and swelling, and burning and itching sensation.[6]

Pyrethrins are extremely toxic to aquatic life, such as bluegill and lake trout while it is slightly toxic to bird species, such as mallards. Toxicity increases with higher water temperatures and acidity. Natural pyrethrins are highly fat soluble, but are easily degraded and thus do not accumulate in the body. These compounds are also toxic to bees

[jal_ut]

My feelings too on the Pyrethrins. I have never used them. They may be natural, but they are bad toxic.

[applestar]

Wow SO MUCH being discussed and commented on in this thread!

I'm just going to pick one little aspect and say that in the absence of predators, I consider myself to be one. I would work on eliminating them if there were so many squash bugs too, though I do believe it helps to allow the pest insect load to build up some and not rush into wholesale massacre at the first sign.

When I walk around the garden, I grab handfuls of stinkbugs and harlequin bugs at varying stages of development, throw them on the ground and stomp on them. Same with Japanese beetles (I don't always feel like going back for that container of soapy water or a plastic bag).

@JAL -- I think we've been emphasizing "soap not detergent" because so many new gardeners post their tales of woe after blackening their first endeavors with detergent spray. It's safer to recommend soap. What is YOUR formula/recipe? The DE dust cloud emitter via vacuum output idea sounds like a good one for a large scale application. I have one of those hand-crank duster with a long nozzle and a directional scoop. I've also re-purposed ketchup and mustard containers for pin-point targeting on garden plants as well as for using on indoor plants.

[DoubleDogFarm]

I'm just going to pick one little aspect and say that in the absence of predators, I consider myself to be one.

or parasite

[Ozark Lady]

Most of us non-permies don't post our techniques on here, because of abuse by the permies. We are ridiculed and criticized about all aspects of gardening that does not line up with permaculture.

Not all of us want to be permaculturists. Not all of us even agree with their theories!

So, we will talk recipes, rain, bugs (maybe, but that opens the door to attack), and maybe show a tomato. Non-permies are so limited, by the aggression of the permies. I thought I had learned to say nothing here, unless it is recipes, but guess that I still haven't.

[DoubleDogFarm]

I don't consider myself a permaculturist, more of Apiarian. I take little pieces of gardening information from all styles. I borrowed this term, I believe from Thomas Jefferson.

I say, show some confidence, stand behind what you believe.



Eric

[Ozark Lady]

Main Entry: api·ar·i·an
Pronunciation: \ˌā-pē-ˈer-ē-ən\
Function: adjective
Date: 1801
: of or relating to beekeeping or bees

[DoubleDogFarm]

Yes, I know it means bee keeping.

Thomas Jefferson was actually talking about religion. He was saying he is not Atheist, but Apiarian. Like a bee going from flower to flower, he takes parts of many beliefs.


Eric

[applestar]

Oooohhhh, NOW it makes sense!
... parasite, eh? ...

[DoubleDogFarm]

I was KIDDING. sheesh.

[applestar]

I know, but I had to get you back, didn't I? Truce?

... waay, OT, I know, but we're still carrying on the humor

[DoubleDogFarm]

truce,

I'm done.

Eric

ps. Sorry Gix for stealing your post.

[gixxerific]

It's all good DDF. That first post was just a shocker that's all.

[jal_ut]

What is YOUR formula/recipe?

I don't know that I have ever measured the amount of Dawn that I put in the spray bottle. I am thinking those bottles hold about a quart and I would think no more than a Tablespoonful of Dawn. I just squirt some in. No matter what you use, it would pay to try it on a few leaves and wait to see if it is going to burn them. Soap sprays work fast when you get it on the bugs. Give them 30 seconds to tip over in most cases. You can then wash your plants with a fine spray if you want to. The soap has no residual effect. You must get it direcly on the bugs. I have found that it knocks earwigs, aphids, boxelder bugs, and daddy long legged spiders. I don't know how well it would do on squash bugs or Japenese Beetles.

There are several brands of insecticidal soaps available, but they do not all use the same ingredients. Check the MSDS for the particular product if you are interested in what is in it.

[Ozark Lady]

I sprayed it on Harlequin bugs, and they stood on their back legs and scubbed their armpits, while singing... Splish, Splash!

It didn't even slow the critters down any. It did annoy some red wasps.

[jal_ut]

Dawn is biodegradable, OK for septic tanks, and pretty harmless, unless you ingest it, in which case you could have some stomach upset and diarrhea.
If you have never looked at a product MSDS, here is the one for [url=https://www.head-start.lane.or.us/administration/documents/MSDS/Dawn%20Liquid%20Hand%20Dishwashing%20Detergent.pdf]Dawn[/url]

Google is your friend: search for "MSDS product name".

[gumbo2176]

[quote="DoubleDogFarm"]Ozark,

[quote]"
Gumbo should not be tilling wet clay soil. One of the quickest way to destroy soil structure and create hardpan.



For the record, the soil was tilled days prior to the onset of the heavy rains that turned my garden into a giant soup bowl. The garden was as dry as it could have possibly been at the time of tilling. It rained hard again last night and my garden is so wet right now that I can't even row it up to put new plants in. It may take a week or more of no rain before I can even attempt that menial task.

[jal_ut]

Most of us non-permies don't post our techniques on here, because of abuse by the permies. We are ridiculed and criticized about all aspects of gardening that does not line up with permaculture.

Not all of us want to be permaculturists. Not all of us even agree with their theories!

I have left other forums for the very reasons you state here. Not so much the permies, but the Organic Gardening gang. Unfortunately some of them practice the method as a religion and become fanatical, and are on a mission to convert the world, and bully those who have other concepts.

I have seen very little of that going on in this forum. Maybe you have noticed I stay out of the Permaculture and Organic Gardening forums? I am not here in search of religion.

This forum has been great. I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas. I enjoy seeing your gardens and marvel at the differences from my own garden. I am not really a newbie to gardening, but still have plenty to learn. The thing is that to test a concept will take at least one season, and maybe several seasons, so the learning curve moves slowly.

Gix, sorry if this has gotten off topic. Quite a lot of discussion your post started. In conclusion let me say, and you can quote me: "The only wrong way to garden is, Don't!"

[Ozark Lady]

I probably shouldn't have said permies in the above, I should have said "passionate"?

I do not fit in the permie, the true organic, nor some other techniques of gardening. I don't even fit into the plow and chemical crowd!

Does anyone remember the Karate Kid movie? Mr. M was talking to the boy... he said Karate do, or Karate no do. You walk on left safe (do), you walk on the right safe (don't do), you walk in middle of highway (halfway do) and get squished.

Maybe I am in the middle and not truly fitting in any category, so I get squished? ha ha

Gumbo, when I lived in Eastern Arkansas as a child, we had gumbo mud, I well remember swimming in my dad's wheat crop... boy was he mad, boy was I muddy, boy was my mom mad, she had to throw away my shorts they would never come clean... mud crawling? ha ha You took one step into the water, and sunk a foot into the mud underneath.

But, when that stuff dried out... it was like cement, I could ride my bike (on the dirt road) just like kids did on pavement, couldn't do that on the gravelled roads. You can't till wet gumbo, you would sink to China!
But, oh man oh man, can gumbo ever grow the crops! Awesome!

[TZ -OH6]

The forum has become much more tolerant of nonorganic gardeners in the past year or so. The righteous vigor expressed whenever someone mentions Sevin now used to occur whenever anyone mentioned mineral fertilizers (salts are poison) and/or tilling the soil (aka murdering microbes). I had to laugh the other day when I saw an add for Roundup on the same page with the Monsanto is the Devil thread.

[jal_ut]

I do not fit in the permie, the true organic, nor some other techniques of gardening. I don't even fit into the plow and chemical crowd!

I am guessing this fits most of us on this forum. We each develop our own style. I guess you can give your style a name and write a book? It will be worth as much as the other styles and books.

[gixxerific]

Jal or anyone don't fell bad if this has gone off topic. It has grown and I think we may have grown with it.

as far as this

I do not fit in the permie, the true organic, nor some other techniques of gardening. I don't even fit into the plow and chemical crowd!

.

Hell I don't even fit any crowd. I'm the most non gardening type on here I believe. Though I know I'm a true gardener at heart. You would never be able to tell if I never told you by meeting me. My outer shell is as harcore as they come yet I have a gooey inner shell that is soft as it can be.

But I try to be organic as much as possible I do love my Earth and want to keep it in shape fro the kids. But if I'm out with a tiller this year and you all come by harping on me why I shouldn't, you just might find yourself under that tiller. Okay maybe not that would bring in nasty critters.

Yes we all have very different beliefs of what is right, or maybe not what is right, but just how we do it. We can all gain from each other, this here and that there and vice versa.

I'm not really sure where this is going so I'm off the garden I hear some tomatoes calling my name.

All you guy's and gals are the greatest.

[garden5]

Jal, What you said is so true! I just read the other day about several types of gardening styles. There was the French intensive, the Biodynamic, the Grow Biointensive (a combination of the aforementioned two, Square-foot gardening, and now, the subject of this book, mini-farming .

In then end, everyone does what works best for them......some folks just don't like some of those things .

[gixxerific]

G5 somewhere in there is where I lie.

Let's see I don't use chemicals, I do use organic pesticides and fertilizers though minimally if at all. I use compost but not hay, I use grass and leaves and horse manure, I'm trying to get away from tilling but not so much this year, I do hand pick insects and most of the time I spray individual insects and sometimes I go spray crazy (though with organic options that still might not be the best but I'm trying). I do somewhat row plantings but my garden is more or less inter-planted (let's see you not row crop, more than 2 of the same plant next to each other is a row so give me a break). I plant beneficial attractors, I spend most of my time in the garden or at least thinking about my garden, I used mostly all heirloom plants this year started by me. I try to water in a ecologically safe yet garden friendly way.

So tell me why mo tom's suck so friggin bad.

But we are all who we are learn "this" from that guy and "that" from that girl. Then do what feels right to you. And most importantly what works for you.

[rainbowgardener]

G5 somewhere in there is where I lie.


So tell me why my tomatoes suck ....

I really have been thinking about that a lot gixx, worrying about you and wondering what is happening since you work at this so hard and certainly deserve to be getting better results. I'd hate for you to be a negative example or start getting convinced that this stuff doesn't work.

I really don't know, but I'm still thinking that this is some kind of transition effect... From the pictures you posted, it looks like your whole subdivision is newish (at least compared to my neighborhood where the houses were all built 100 years ago! ). Your garden is newer, including some parts that were only turned in to garden this year, I think. And you've been gradually changing the way you garden.

So we are trying to garden more ecologically, which is really a systems approach (as opposed to an individual plants approach). It's like trying to get a whole little ecosystem going in your backyard. It takes awhile to get the system going well and all the parts in balance. And this was a difficult year to do it in with heat and drought (though we all may have to get used to it, this may be becoming the new norm).

So hopefully next year will be a better year and your system will get all nicely balanced out!

[gixxerific]

RBG I sure hope next year will be better.

What you said gives me hope for the future, I have heard it before probably form you and others as well. But this is a transition time. But the way you just aid it makes me rethink my "transition".

I am not and have not been a big pesticide user ever. Though I have been a MG and tiller user in the past. But this is a new subdivision and a new garden on top of that. Maybe that is the transition. Not to mention I have a few neighbors with gardens, one right on the other side of the fence from me that is all about death sprays that could be a "part" of the problem.

It will all come around I hope!! I have been doing all I can to turn a lawn into a productive garden like I had at my old house, but that garden was 7 years old with no problems. This one is basically brand new and ravaged with problems.

But you are right saying you don't want me to be the one that say's heck* this organic stuff it aint working for me. And maybe I have been leading towards that somewhat. But that is not the problem I don't think. I am just pissed my garden isn't how it normally is and I "want to blame something. The easiest thing to blame is you guy's, "well you told me to do this so I did and look what happened" I can blame not tilling, not adding manure in the spring, this and that. But the real the problem is as RBG said my garden has not found the yen for the yang yet. I keep thinking this myself but it is easier to blame someone esle, cause How could I be wrong?

So to the others reading this thread please ignore my ramblings and do what feels right to you. But at least don't use all those nasty chemicals or I might have to send my kids over to ask you not to and that may make you shed a tear or two, they want a nice planet to live in as well.

What I'm trying to say is you are right RBG. I keep telling myself the same thing if only I would listen. it will all work out in the end. I'm just not patient man, herein lies the problem.

So on a lighter note: Let's get those fall garden going, what are you waiting for?

[garden5]

I'd hate for you to be a negative example or start getting convinced that this stuff doesn't work.

Ya hear that Gix, you're giving all of us a bad image ....just kidding

I think, too, that it's your brand new ecosystem that you're building. You're just starting to get things going (now, I say this with the perspective that this is only the beginning of a garden that will be amended and grown over many years) and I'm thinking that it's just going to take a little time for all of the levels of biology to even out (if that even makes sense ) There could be a lot of reasons for the less than stellar garden this year, but I'm sure that not one of those reasons is you.

I think that the best thing I could tell you is one of the most common phrases heard in gardening : just give it time. I know, easy to say, hard to do.

Anyway, on the subject of a fall garden, my bush peas and beans have just sprouted .