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gixxerific
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I guess it's time for me to get thinking about his myself. Last year was the first fall planting for me and I think I did it a little late but still had a lot of produce from some things other things not so much.

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cherishedtiger
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TZ -OH6 wrote:https://www.veggieharvest.com/Vegetable-Planting-Calendar/zone-5/
Thank you for the link! I was beginning to wonder what exactly "fall" crops were and what I could plant out here in sunny California. This helped big time!

Thank you for re-posting it!!
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Charlie MV
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applestar, I couldn't get the Southern Exposure link to open but I already know what it should say. It's hot down here.

We do a second planting about now but it's all summer crops. We never had luck planting corn a second time so we dedicate the first planting to getting a year round supply of corn.

This week we'll be pulling up corn and pink eyes and replanting pink eyes and butter beans because that's what we ran out of last year.

As gawd is mah witness, ah'll nevah be hungreh foah butta beans or pink eyes again in January.

We plant winter crops in November. There are only about two weeks of what most of y'all would call winter here.

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applestar
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This link right? https://www.southernexposure.com/KenFallGardenTips.html

I tried it, and it worked, so I don't know why it didn't work for you....

Pink eye (beans?) (southern peas?) and butterbeans -- have not tried growing either of them. How long to maturity? Do they need support? Do you can them?

I tried 2nd crop of corn last year. I thought it would work since the corn was an extremely fast maturing one -- 60 something days. Well, they grew knee high and started tassling. :roll: In an open field near here, they planted corn, so in the beginning, I though I did right. As it turned out, THEIR corn grew to maybe 3~4 ft and tassled, so maybe they didn't know what they were doing either, or it was a throwaway crop. Grackles had a grand time in that field.

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Are potatoes warm weather crops only? Is there a certain breed/type or anything that cna grow in cooler weather? All my spring crops are finally starting to produce (yay! first tomato coming tomorrow!) but i've got two halves of a box where I can plant something for cooler weather. I've already picked up some beans, and brocolli and brussels sprouts are already in ground from the spring, i don't want to rip them up yet cause they might end up being okay.

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On top of fall crops, there are also winter crops. Here in the north, the main one is garlic, but carrots and lettuce can grow pretty well through the winter if mulched.
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Charlie MV
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Pink eyes and Lima beans grow in anything. The pink eyes are ready in 70 days here and butter beans about 90.

The pink eyes are exceptionally high in protein. We substitute them for meat.

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I am in central virginia. I want to have sugar snap peas and broccoli and lettuce. when should i start them inside or out?

I also started some more tomatoes on July 1 inside, will grow them about 6 weeks inside then try them outside...
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Read the southern exposure link above. They are located in Virginia just like you, and their bulletin is applicable to you without need for tweaking.

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ok, so if it says this:
Broccoli (6/1-7/1) - 28°

that means i have to start the seeds indoors by 7/1 ??
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applestar
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OK I read it to mean they(broccoli) have to be in the ground within the range either depending on maturity dates or when seeds are started (in other words, I read that to mean start seeds indoors 6/1 and plant by 7/1). Since I was too late to grow starts, I went with jal's pre-sprouting technique described on the 1st page of this thread. Then planted the sprouted seeds directly in the ground and put a popup shade screen over the area. As of two days ago, the seed leaves are up. I have PVC hoops set up over the bed so if they need it, I can provide frost/temp protection later on, and other plants in the bed are all harvest and clean up by or after first frost. I planted [url=https://www.southernexposure.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=21105&Category_Code=BROC]Waltham29 from Southern Exposures[/url].

There's a red speckled Romaine lettuce volunteer that is now flowering in the bed. I intend for it to self seed among the tomatoes, peppers, cukes, and bush beans, and that will most likely be the rest of the fall/winter plants for that bed.

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Ozark Lady
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I am still starting summer crops.
Last year, I picked the last of the tomatoes, and harvested the tobacco (nightshade like tomatoes and peppers) the day after Thanksgiving.
My frost free runs April 1 to about Nov.15, contrary to what the charts say. I am close to a large lake and I attribute that to my extra 2 weeks spring and fall.
Zuchini, cucumbers, beans, pink eye purple hull peas, watermelons, are just breaking the ground and I am soon to plant okra.
My corn is about 18" tall, and I will start some more.
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Potatoes are a cool-warm weather crop. They are frost sensitive, but don't like hot weather (lowers tuber production), which is why they are mainly farmed in northern states (Idaho, Maine, etc. and northern Europe (and high altitude Andes Mountains).

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I hate to think about cold weather coming, summer was too short.

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I'd be awesome if I could plant a "fall crop" but I guess in zone 4a, just not enough fall to get a crop. :(

Anyways, I planted our flowering kale, quiona, and bunny grass in the early spring, along with all the other plants. A few have survived, but this year not getting the rosette growth on all of them. I find it better to plant our "fall" stuff at the same time I plant the other stuff. (usually around early March, indoors).
Otherwise the only way around it would be to buy the stuff as bedding plants, and that is painfully expensive lately.
Please excuse some of my typos. My keyboard has a busted spacebar.

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FieldofFlowers wrote:I'd be awesome if I could plant a "fall crop" but I guess in zone 4a, just not enough fall to get a crop. :(
When is your first frost? Couldn't you still plant fast growing stuff like leaf lettuce, spinach, radish, turnips, oriental greens? All about 45 days. 28 days for radish. You could also extend the season using floating covers and/or hoop covers.
Last edited by applestar on Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Yesterday after dinner, I suddenly remembered my jar of Lincoln peas that were pre sprouting. :shock: Roots were already about 1/4~1/2" Long but luckily not entangled in the paper towel. So I planted them. Hopefully they'll make it. BB's are growing -- 8~10" already. But it was 80 degrees at midnight last night so I'm still waiting to see if this is all going to work out. I plan on continuing to soak, pre sprout, and plant peas until I run out of seeds or of growing space so I can determine the best timing, if there is one. I'll also find out how the California #5 Blackeyed peas fare in the taste test later on. (Next year I'll try growing the Pinkeyes that CharlieMV mentioned he can't live without. 8) )

P.S. Charlie, how do you preserve them?

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Southern Exposures also has a [url=https://www.southernexposure.com/EvenStarFallGardenTips.html]Winter Gardening Guide article[/url]. That's going to be a little more challenging for me because it'll get colder around here and I need to work out some serious protection to succeed. But I'm definitely experimenting again this year.

Last year's exceptional snowfall was a boon and quite a few plants unexpectedly survived. I'm not sure how well it's going to work out this winter. But NEW PROJECT! :() -- I've ordered some seeds to grow and try in addition to what I have already. :wink: I'm also experimenting with a variety of winter covercrops this year.

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Covercrops I have to experiment with. Some are grain crops that could be grown for harvest and need to be planted at the right time/season for harvesting. Some will winterkill, others won't and will be difficult to deal with since I don't till. If anyone has experience and/or planting suggestions/recommendations, please let me know.

• Buckwheat: obviously for the warm season -- I could (and probably should) sow some right now - winterkills, but selfseeds and grows next spring
• Clover:
- Yellow Sweet Clover - winter hardy
- Scarlet Clover
- also if I collect seeds
-- Red Clover - winter hardy
-- White Clover (existing -- Dutch White, I think) - winter hardy
• Hairy Vetch
• Hulless Oats - winterkills. only grows to about 6" when sown late Sept. Want to try growing for harvest though.
• Spelt - can handle wet ground -- better than barley or winter rye for rice paddy since I can't get it to dry out?
• Triticale - winter hardy?
• Winter Rye - winter hardy
• (Barley) - didn't get seeds as it will winterkill and I don't normally eat it.

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gixxerific
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Nice link Apple. I just planted some Brussels Sprouts today I hope I'm not too late. I definitely am wanting to do a fall/winter garden. In fact I am kind of waiting for things to die down so I will have room. It is so hot here right now though it almost seems insane to even be thinking about it. We will be seeing upper 90's maybe 100 this week. The heat wave doesn't seem to be going away to soon either.

I started a fall garden for the first time last year and it was wonderful. So I need to get my notes and do a little more research soon to get things going.

Keep up with this thread you are inspiring me yet again. :D

Thanks,
Dono

Actually Aug 5 I plan on going to a "Summer/Fall Vegetable Gardening" seminar put on by my local ext. office. They will have plants for sale as well.

I would also like to try a cover crop which will require some research. I almost want something that will die down in the winter as well as not spread. I'm kinda thinking red clover would be something that would do what I want it to.

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:lol: You sure you want to follow me along here? :lol:

It turns out that when you're thinking about fall crops, you need to think about the winter cover crops/winter crops (what to plant, where to plant).

... and if you want to think about winter cover crops/winter crops, you need to think about what you'll be planting in that bed next spring and summer.

8) following me?

For example: I have a pre-designated sequence to follow for the rice paddy (as per OSR, M. Fukuoka)
Summer: Grow Rice
Early Fall: Sow Clover + Rye or Barley (I'll be using Rye)
Fall: Harvest Rice / Grow Clover + Winter Rye
Late Fall/Early Winter: Sow Rice
Early Spring: supplement Clover if necessary
Late Spring: Supplement Rice if necessary / harvest Winter crop

I'm trying to rotate out the curcurbits, and only bed I have that isn't growing any this year is the New Kitchen Garden. I'll want plenty of N and plenty of mulch, so I'm thinking Hairy Vetch and winter killing Oat for Winter Covercrop. I'll want to sow parsley to overwinter too. In spring, I'll want to only sparsely plant things that will come out by late June/early July so they'll be out of there by the time the pumpkins and squash neeed the room. Pumpkin and Butternut Squash seems to be a common combination.

I've started thinking about all my garden beds in these terms.... :wink:

p.s. that seminar sounds interesting. Please let us know what you find out. :D
Last edited by applestar on Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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gixxerific
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applestar wrote::lol: You sure you want to follow me along here? :lol:

I'd follow you anywhere, if I get lost I can always ask for directions. :D

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sheeshshe
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can you explain to me "cover crops"? what are they exactly, what are their purpose?

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gixxerific
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sheeshshe wrote:can you explain to me "cover crops"? what are they exactly, what are their purpose?
The simple explanation is that cover crops are crops that you put in while your regular garden is down. They would be something more than likely that fixes nitrogen from the air and puts it in the soil. They can also be just a crop that grows in your garden space and is turned into a "green" mulch for the following season. They also serve the purpose of keeping weeds down. They are usually turned in or lust let to die on their own adding nutrients to the soil. Some can be harvested for food others just for compost or turning back into the soil as is.

You saw the list Apple posted there are many different types of cover crops and they all have their own purposes of what they do and how long they last.

Google Cover Crop there is a ton of info on them.

I Hope this helps.

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Good answer Gixx. :D
Here's a link to a Cover Crop Chart I use (there are others, but this one's pretty good with lots of details. You DO have to consider regional climate differences.):
https://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/features/0104/no-till/chart.shtml

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gixxerific
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Aww shucks Apple :oops:

By the way nice link (bookmarked).

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sheeshshe
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OK this is SO interesting!!!!! I am just blown away that I've never heard of this before and this is just SO stinkin cool!!!

I checked out that link and wow, what a resource!

Any idea what "tender" means where the temps are? I couldn't find it in the link.



OK, so bare with me because I have lots of thoughts rolling around. So lets say I want to grow a grain. There is winter wheat and rye that says is ok for my temps. So, in the fall I would uproot all of my plants that are in my garden right now and then plant winter wheat instead and then in june I'd mow the wheat, harvest the grain, and then use the rest to mulch my garden? if this is true then this is genius and I am just like HOLEY WOW THIS IS AMAZING!

seriously, someone tell me that I"m understanding this right!

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gixxerific
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Sounds like you are on the right track.

But don't uproot your plants cut them off at soil line throw the rest in the compost. Let the roots become part of the earth for next years garden. :wink:

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sheeshshe
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OK, cut them at the soil line, guess I always did it wrong. ooops! so that isn't a problem in the spring? like all the roots and stuff in there? it couldn't be broken down by then right?

BUT, if I wanted to do my whole garden in wheat instead then those roots would be in the way right? so I should uproot them?



OK, nitty gritty details here because I am so excited right now you don't even know. seriously my DH is looking at me like I have 2 heads. like uh, why are you so excited about this? LOL! here is the deal. Iw anted to grow some grains and I thought I'd have to knock down some trees or something to get more garden area to do so, I didn't realize that i could put it where my existing garden is and have it go through the winter!!! is the snow going to be a problem? serioulsy, I hope this really will work because I am very excited and um, yeah. LOL!

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sheeshshe
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well bummer :( according to this my plan won't work. bah!

https://www.mofga.org/mofga/other/mofjun2.htm

I can't pick it in august. I would have to do beginning of june at the latest ya know?

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sheeshshe wrote:OK, cut them at the soil line, guess I always did it wrong. ooops!
You didn't do it WRONG just different. 8)

If wheat won't work for you than you may have to find something else. There are so many different choices out there you just have to find something that works with your time schedule. Wheat would be great if you didn't have to use that space next year right away like if you had had several acres or way too many veggie beds. That is my problem I want something that will fixate nitrogen and will die back in the winter so it's easy for me. Still not sure myself what to do but there is still time for that. I'm not going to rip out my garden for something that will gain me no harvest. My garden may not allow for too many choices so hopefully I can find something that does what I want it to do but that may be difficult in with my agenda.

I'm no expert but I wish you luck.

Oh and don't get discouraged. you seem excited just look at different alternatives.

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If I read your link right,
Winter wheat, he said, fits well when rotated with summer crops, such as dry beans.
means the recommendation is to follow winter wheat with beans. So you need to look at it as rotation over SEVERAL years.

Let's say you planted half your garden with winter wheat this fall. You would harvest that late July/Aug -- in other words, about now next summer -- then sow beans for growing in that space rest of the season. Note that technically, you would sow the beans a few days before or as you harvest, BETWEEN where the wheat plants used to grow. But maybe it doesn't have to be dry beans, maybe you could grow an early variety of snow peas.

OK, leaving them to grow, let's get back to the other half of your garden -- WHAT do you WANT to grow there next year? Let's say you want to grow tomatoes. You need the bed available by beginning of June... Is there cool weather crop that will come out by then? Lettuce and spinach may be? You could sow those a month before last frost. if that's what you want to do, go with winter cover crop that winter kills, like oats and less hardy clover like crimson. Or you could try planting winter mustard or arugula in the fall. I find Dinosaur Kale to be pretty hardy too. You could also plant garlic.
See how you have to plan BACKWARDS?

Now let's go back to next fall after you've harvested the beans... Well, that might be the time to plant garlic in this bed. You could have also sown clover or maybe lettuce and other fall crop under the beans. After winter is over, you could sow the early spring-sown grain like oats here or maybe peas. OR you could undersow the beans with winter killing cover crop and plan to plant tomatoes HERE next year.

It's getting too complicated but I think you get the idea. If you have the space, it's a good idea to have 4 areas to rotate around.

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sheeshshe
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woah, ok... yeah getting a little complicated LOL! this is something to make a type of graph or something to show how it all works. so if I pick the things I want to grow I can put them into a rotating graph type thing?

I was reading on the hairy vetch and I like how it says it kills out the weeds. how long does it keep weeds out for once you plant your summer stuff? because I have a major weed problem and I'd like to get it under control. I know there is nothing to harvest from it besides the straw to use as weed cover, but it could possibly be worth it just for the weed control. yes?

My garden isn't huge so I like to try and get as much out of it as I can. I like the idea of growing some beans for drying. so do you think that if I planted wheat I would still have enough time to do the beans? do they do Ok after frost or do they die? I want to get into protein crops so I can have a variety of things for my family to eat.

I'll have to measure my garden again. I was thinking about maximizing space next year and doing some container gardening around my garden. Like tomatoes maybe. BUT I'm afraid a 5g bucket isn't enough for a tomato plant the way mine grew this year ya know? they got so huge I'm sure their root system is massive and I don't see how a 5gal bucket would be able to contain those roots without being bound. but the tomatoes took up half my garden this year and they're overcrowded and diseased becuse of it. I want a lot of tomatoes so I need to do something, I can't have my entire garden to be tomatoes!

let me measure my garden this morning or afternoon and maybe you guys can help me plan this whole cover crops thing based on my garden size? I don't know anything about it and how much space I need etc, so maybe with my dimensions it will make clear sense to someone else. I really am liking the idea of a rotating thing though!

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OK, the whole thing is 37x 16 1/2 on one end of that it narrows to 3ishx10ish (fence division) and the other end (there is a fence division here from before I added on) is approx 8ftx 16 1/2. so what is left in the middle I guess is about 24 feet (this is what I have written down from before) so the large space is 24x 16 1/2.

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The more I thought about it, the more complicated it got, because I realized I had to take into consideration [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28648]how the crops should be rotated[/url] in each bed.

I had to draw a diagram... :lol: :wink:
Still noodling the details but here's what I have so far. Sorry about the quality, I had to take a screen capture because the app wouldn't export.
[img]https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll272/applesbucket/IMG_0251.png[/img]

Overthinking it? Probably. But I'm learning a lot and really enjoying working it all out. :>

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I'm still deciding what....if...my cover crop will be. Like Gix, I want to have full use of my garden come spring, so I think growing a cover crop to maturity is out of the question for me.
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I think growing a cover crop to maturity is out of the question for me.
This is a bit confusing and somewhat misleading. Usually covercrops are NOT grown to maturity but are cut down or tilled under (bleh! :wink:) before they set seed -- more like just as they're starting to flower -- as green manure.

The function of cover crop is to keep the soil "covered" while it's not in use and outcompete the weeds.

If you're saying you can't sow the seeds EARLY enough -- I've been thinking about that too because I'm in the same situation. I believe that with some cover crops, you can UNDERSEED while there are still existing crops in the bed. M. Fukuoka does this with every next crop in his rice fields. He sows the clover and rye/barley seeds two weeks prior to harvesting rice. He sows rice seeds in late fall/early winter and sows supplemental rice seeds two weeks prior to harvesting rye/barley. With those crops, he says it's OK to step on the newly emerged ±2" seedlings. According to jal_ut, it's OK to step on newly sown seeds -- so it's probably safe to step on them for 3~5 days at least.

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My thing is wanting to have a spring garden but more importantly I want to have a fall garden. And around here that is kind of late. So after cleaning up the fall garden I don't have much time to plant a cover crop before the big freezes come. That is my biggest hurdle.

Around here we go from summer to winter in a short time and than back around winter to summer. Or so it seems.

I don't have a lot of space to be planting cover crops when I could be planting usable crops. Now I know some cover crops are usable but do I have the time for them?

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That's why I'm working out the complicated diagram. I'll have some beds that won't be planted with fall crops and some that won't be planted with spring. Some with both fall and spring, etc. all different combo choices. And the cover crop selection will depend on those choices as well as the winter micro climate and/or equipped for and level of frost protectionboth in fall and spring, and early spring soil conditions. :wink:

As crazy as all this sounds, I think if planned out properly, it'll be just a matter of sowing the appropriate seeds and forgetting about them There may be varying degrees of success, but it's better than NOT doing anything. They'll still add some organic matter, and there will be some growth that are not weeds.

That said, some "weeds" are useful and desirable. My goal is to replace some of the truly unwanted weeds with selections of my own.

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Good point Apple and I think I can find some room for that we shall see. I am still new to some of this way of thinking so it may take me a while to come around. But I just don't have the time to invest at this moment to be thinking about all this.

3 kids, a job (finally) and all the "right now gardening" has got my hands full. Heck I'm about to go get some kind of soil for starting my fall crops with. I figure it's never too early to start some things.

Look at us last winter starting crops as early and some of us before Jan. By the way a shot of me in front of my Jan planted cherry coming soon, it's over 8 feet tall already.

But I hope to learn some more over the winter that is my down time maybe I will be able to put some thing in for this fall/winter. I already have some blank section in my garden that have just been prepped for fall planting. So after these are full the summer veggies will go down leading to more room.

It's all a gamble being somewhat broke and not much time we shall see what happens.

I just want something that is easy. And I am all about turning something in this spring or early winter. I even looked at a few farm supply shops around for seed but most of it is in 50 lb. bags that is a LITTLE more than I need.

One step at a time for me. I'm just now getting this garden into the swing of things (it's new). So one step at a time.

I just can't wait for next year. I am learning day by day. :D

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