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applestar
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Already time to think FALL CROPS! WINTER & COVER CROPS t

Came across this:
https://www.southernexposure.com/KenFallGardenTips.html

Johnny's sent around this: (note it says to add 2 weeks to days to maturity for fall crops)
https://growingideas.johnnyseeds.com/search/label/JSS%20Advantage#produceJuly2010

I'm sure there are others. I think rainbowgardener posted another link recently.
-- ETA -- found it!
https://www.thevegetablegarden.info/resources/planting-schedules/zones-5-6-planting-schedule

Do you have any personal experiences to share for those of us new :? to the concept of planting cool weather crops in the sweltering heat of the summer?
Last edited by applestar on Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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rainbowgardener
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Seems early yet, it's barely July. I will plant my cool weather seeds mid-August. Around here the heat and especially humidity is pretty well done once we get past Labor Day. We we still have warm weather, but not so darn hot and muggy. So the garden perks up. So planting mid-Aug by the time it is well sprouted we will be through the really stressful heat.

I have some space where the spring lettuce and spinach was that I never filled back in. I have some space where the spring broccoli was in the bed with the tomatoes. The tomatoes have now filled a lot of that in, but I can plant some lettuce in their shade, which the lettuce will like while it is still warm. I have some space where the potatoes died :(
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applestar
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I have seeds for Blauschokker Blue Pod Peas: 80-85 days. So yesterday 7/1afternoon, I decided to follow jal's instructions for pre sprouting them to plant for fall crop. When I rinsed them tonight, I saw that the radicle roots have emerged! Already! :shock: I guess I'm sowing these peas first thing in the morning! :wink:

I'm also presprouting a 76 day watermelon seeds I just got in the mail called Early Moonbeam --don't know if it'll make it but it can't hurt to try, edamame seeds, two kinds of early eggplants, and broccoli. the broccoli seeds are looking like they may sprout by tomorrow.
jal_ut wrote:If planting in warm weather it is good to presprout them. They sometimes are balky to germinate when the weather is hot.

Here is how I presprout seed: Put the seed in a quart bottle and fill the jar with water. Let soak over night. In the morning drain the water off and invert the bottle on a paper towell sitting on the counter. It works best to hold the towell over the top of the jar as you turn it over and set it down. This lets any excess water come off the seed, but holds the humidity high. Each evening and morning take up the bottle and rinse the seed with lukewarm water, drain and again invert the bottle on the paper towell. It takes two or three days usually to see a root emerge on the seed. As soon as you see this go plant them. Don't wait until the roots get long.

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jal_ut
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I guess my fall crop will be the corn I planted 3 days ago. It should come ready about mid October. I did also plant some peas, but have yet to see them come up. I may have to follow my own advice. :roll: There is always such an abundance of goodies in August and September from the spring planted crops.
Gardening at 5000 feet elevation, zone 4/5 Northern Utah, Frost free from May 25 to September 8 +/-

TZ -OH6
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I'm going out to the local nursery today and see if they have their overgrown spring Brussells sprouts on clearance. They will go in as soon as I pull the garlic, which should be any day now.


Somebody some place posted this planting calendar (Thank You). You can change the zone by changing it in the addres bar.

https://www.veggieharvest.com/Vegetable-Planting-Calendar/zone-5/

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Gary350
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Last year I planted peas the first week of August. I planted a 20 ft long row. I put a lot of seeds in and 8" side row as instructed in my garden book. Peas all came up and I had peas in cold weather but my pea crop is always small. My pea crop is always so small it seems to be a waste of time to plant peas. I picked the whole crop of peas and ate pods and all and there was enough for one meal.

Maybe I need to try a different type pea I have been planting Alaska snow peas. I have not planted peas in several years because my experence with peas has never been good. I'm not sure what I need to do to get a larger crop of peas.

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I planted the fall crop around September last year, and I had a very late harvest. I'd have been better off planting in August.
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jal_ut
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You folks talking about planting in September leaves me agast. Here it will freeze hard about mid September. End of growing season! To get fall peas I have to plant now. That leaves about 70 to 80 days before killing frost. It is hard to convince peas they should be germinating and growing when its so hot, but if you don't plant them now, they will get frozen when in flower. No crop!!! I like Wando peas for a fall crop. They seem to get along better in warm weather than some other varieties.
Gardening at 5000 feet elevation, zone 4/5 Northern Utah, Frost free from May 25 to September 8 +/-

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jal_ut
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Gary, plant peas early in April. Plant Victory Freezer, Lincoln, Laxton's Progress, Little Marvel, or Wando. Plant 3 15 foot long rows ten inches apart. Seeds can go close together, 1-2 inches Have a Great harvest!
Gardening at 5000 feet elevation, zone 4/5 Northern Utah, Frost free from May 25 to September 8 +/-

orgoveg
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For fall crops, I usually do lettuce, spinach, kale, turnips, and more green beans (which I sow all season). I wait until mid-august and I don't put them in full sun. The heat and bright sun is usually still too much for the young seedlings. I keep hearing everybody talk about peas, which I have never grown before. I'll have to try them this fall.

Beyond fall, I look forward to garlic mustard, violet, and dandelion which are available all winter long and taste best after they are treated with frost.

hit or miss
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I planted fall green beans Friday night. I've never planted a fall crop before so this will be somewhat of an experiment. According to my records, they should begin producing the first of September. They're Jade Beans and the spring ones are producing fair right now with the extreme heat we're getting.

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I think I screwed myself. The local nursery had already gotten rid of all of their spring brussels sprouts so I couldn't use the rescues for my fall crop, which meant starting seeds late, and using a less reliable nonhybrid variety. Luckily we have frost here long before freezing weather sets in and the brussels sprouts keep on growing during that time. I'll plant next to the house for some added protection.

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This year, I started Brussels sprouts along with cabbages and cauliflower back in March 1, and planted out. Along with late started Romanesco broccoflowers, they stalled when the hot weather arrived when they were around 12"~18". I'm hoping they'll manage NOT to bolt (they're in noon shade/late PM shade area) and resume growing in fall. Last year, I started the BS's too late (mid~late June) and they didn't finish growing in the fall. They overwintered but bolted rather than forming sprouts in the spring when we had that crazy heat wave. :x So I'm still trying to find the right timing.

The sprouted peas I mentioned above looked like this in the morning:
[img]https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll272/applesbucket/Image7420.jpg[/img]

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Zapatay
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:shock:

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applestar
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FYI -- The little pea shoots came up a couple of days ago and are about 2" high.

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gixxerific
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I guess it's time for me to get thinking about his myself. Last year was the first fall planting for me and I think I did it a little late but still had a lot of produce from some things other things not so much.

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TZ -OH6 wrote:https://www.veggieharvest.com/Vegetable-Planting-Calendar/zone-5/
Thank you for the link! I was beginning to wonder what exactly "fall" crops were and what I could plant out here in sunny California. This helped big time!

Thank you for re-posting it!!
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Charlie MV
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applestar, I couldn't get the Southern Exposure link to open but I already know what it should say. It's hot down here.

We do a second planting about now but it's all summer crops. We never had luck planting corn a second time so we dedicate the first planting to getting a year round supply of corn.

This week we'll be pulling up corn and pink eyes and replanting pink eyes and butter beans because that's what we ran out of last year.

As gawd is mah witness, ah'll nevah be hungreh foah butta beans or pink eyes again in January.

We plant winter crops in November. There are only about two weeks of what most of y'all would call winter here.

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applestar
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This link right? https://www.southernexposure.com/KenFallGardenTips.html

I tried it, and it worked, so I don't know why it didn't work for you....

Pink eye (beans?) (southern peas?) and butterbeans -- have not tried growing either of them. How long to maturity? Do they need support? Do you can them?

I tried 2nd crop of corn last year. I thought it would work since the corn was an extremely fast maturing one -- 60 something days. Well, they grew knee high and started tassling. :roll: In an open field near here, they planted corn, so in the beginning, I though I did right. As it turned out, THEIR corn grew to maybe 3~4 ft and tassled, so maybe they didn't know what they were doing either, or it was a throwaway crop. Grackles had a grand time in that field.

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Are potatoes warm weather crops only? Is there a certain breed/type or anything that cna grow in cooler weather? All my spring crops are finally starting to produce (yay! first tomato coming tomorrow!) but i've got two halves of a box where I can plant something for cooler weather. I've already picked up some beans, and brocolli and brussels sprouts are already in ground from the spring, i don't want to rip them up yet cause they might end up being okay.

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On top of fall crops, there are also winter crops. Here in the north, the main one is garlic, but carrots and lettuce can grow pretty well through the winter if mulched.
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Charlie MV
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Pink eyes and Lima beans grow in anything. The pink eyes are ready in 70 days here and butter beans about 90.

The pink eyes are exceptionally high in protein. We substitute them for meat.

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I am in central virginia. I want to have sugar snap peas and broccoli and lettuce. when should i start them inside or out?

I also started some more tomatoes on July 1 inside, will grow them about 6 weeks inside then try them outside...
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applestar
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Read the southern exposure link above. They are located in Virginia just like you, and their bulletin is applicable to you without need for tweaking.

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ok, so if it says this:
Broccoli (6/1-7/1) - 28°

that means i have to start the seeds indoors by 7/1 ??
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applestar
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OK I read it to mean they(broccoli) have to be in the ground within the range either depending on maturity dates or when seeds are started (in other words, I read that to mean start seeds indoors 6/1 and plant by 7/1). Since I was too late to grow starts, I went with jal's pre-sprouting technique described on the 1st page of this thread. Then planted the sprouted seeds directly in the ground and put a popup shade screen over the area. As of two days ago, the seed leaves are up. I have PVC hoops set up over the bed so if they need it, I can provide frost/temp protection later on, and other plants in the bed are all harvest and clean up by or after first frost. I planted [url=https://www.southernexposure.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=21105&Category_Code=BROC]Waltham29 from Southern Exposures[/url].

There's a red speckled Romaine lettuce volunteer that is now flowering in the bed. I intend for it to self seed among the tomatoes, peppers, cukes, and bush beans, and that will most likely be the rest of the fall/winter plants for that bed.

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I am still starting summer crops.
Last year, I picked the last of the tomatoes, and harvested the tobacco (nightshade like tomatoes and peppers) the day after Thanksgiving.
My frost free runs April 1 to about Nov.15, contrary to what the charts say. I am close to a large lake and I attribute that to my extra 2 weeks spring and fall.
Zuchini, cucumbers, beans, pink eye purple hull peas, watermelons, are just breaking the ground and I am soon to plant okra.
My corn is about 18" tall, and I will start some more.
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Potatoes are a cool-warm weather crop. They are frost sensitive, but don't like hot weather (lowers tuber production), which is why they are mainly farmed in northern states (Idaho, Maine, etc. and northern Europe (and high altitude Andes Mountains).

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Gary350
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I hate to think about cold weather coming, summer was too short.

FieldofFlowers
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I'd be awesome if I could plant a "fall crop" but I guess in zone 4a, just not enough fall to get a crop. :(

Anyways, I planted our flowering kale, quiona, and bunny grass in the early spring, along with all the other plants. A few have survived, but this year not getting the rosette growth on all of them. I find it better to plant our "fall" stuff at the same time I plant the other stuff. (usually around early March, indoors).
Otherwise the only way around it would be to buy the stuff as bedding plants, and that is painfully expensive lately.
Please excuse some of my typos. My keyboard has a busted spacebar.

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applestar
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FieldofFlowers wrote:I'd be awesome if I could plant a "fall crop" but I guess in zone 4a, just not enough fall to get a crop. :(
When is your first frost? Couldn't you still plant fast growing stuff like leaf lettuce, spinach, radish, turnips, oriental greens? All about 45 days. 28 days for radish. You could also extend the season using floating covers and/or hoop covers.
Last edited by applestar on Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Yesterday after dinner, I suddenly remembered my jar of Lincoln peas that were pre sprouting. :shock: Roots were already about 1/4~1/2" Long but luckily not entangled in the paper towel. So I planted them. Hopefully they'll make it. BB's are growing -- 8~10" already. But it was 80 degrees at midnight last night so I'm still waiting to see if this is all going to work out. I plan on continuing to soak, pre sprout, and plant peas until I run out of seeds or of growing space so I can determine the best timing, if there is one. I'll also find out how the California #5 Blackeyed peas fare in the taste test later on. (Next year I'll try growing the Pinkeyes that CharlieMV mentioned he can't live without. 8) )

P.S. Charlie, how do you preserve them?

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applestar
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Southern Exposures also has a [url=https://www.southernexposure.com/EvenStarFallGardenTips.html]Winter Gardening Guide article[/url]. That's going to be a little more challenging for me because it'll get colder around here and I need to work out some serious protection to succeed. But I'm definitely experimenting again this year.

Last year's exceptional snowfall was a boon and quite a few plants unexpectedly survived. I'm not sure how well it's going to work out this winter. But NEW PROJECT! :() -- I've ordered some seeds to grow and try in addition to what I have already. :wink: I'm also experimenting with a variety of winter covercrops this year.

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Covercrops I have to experiment with. Some are grain crops that could be grown for harvest and need to be planted at the right time/season for harvesting. Some will winterkill, others won't and will be difficult to deal with since I don't till. If anyone has experience and/or planting suggestions/recommendations, please let me know.

• Buckwheat: obviously for the warm season -- I could (and probably should) sow some right now - winterkills, but selfseeds and grows next spring
• Clover:
- Yellow Sweet Clover - winter hardy
- Scarlet Clover
- also if I collect seeds
-- Red Clover - winter hardy
-- White Clover (existing -- Dutch White, I think) - winter hardy
• Hairy Vetch
• Hulless Oats - winterkills. only grows to about 6" when sown late Sept. Want to try growing for harvest though.
• Spelt - can handle wet ground -- better than barley or winter rye for rice paddy since I can't get it to dry out?
• Triticale - winter hardy?
• Winter Rye - winter hardy
• (Barley) - didn't get seeds as it will winterkill and I don't normally eat it.

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gixxerific
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Nice link Apple. I just planted some Brussels Sprouts today I hope I'm not too late. I definitely am wanting to do a fall/winter garden. In fact I am kind of waiting for things to die down so I will have room. It is so hot here right now though it almost seems insane to even be thinking about it. We will be seeing upper 90's maybe 100 this week. The heat wave doesn't seem to be going away to soon either.

I started a fall garden for the first time last year and it was wonderful. So I need to get my notes and do a little more research soon to get things going.

Keep up with this thread you are inspiring me yet again. :D

Thanks,
Dono

Actually Aug 5 I plan on going to a "Summer/Fall Vegetable Gardening" seminar put on by my local ext. office. They will have plants for sale as well.

I would also like to try a cover crop which will require some research. I almost want something that will die down in the winter as well as not spread. I'm kinda thinking red clover would be something that would do what I want it to.

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applestar
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:lol: You sure you want to follow me along here? :lol:

It turns out that when you're thinking about fall crops, you need to think about the winter cover crops/winter crops (what to plant, where to plant).

... and if you want to think about winter cover crops/winter crops, you need to think about what you'll be planting in that bed next spring and summer.

8) following me?

For example: I have a pre-designated sequence to follow for the rice paddy (as per OSR, M. Fukuoka)
Summer: Grow Rice
Early Fall: Sow Clover + Rye or Barley (I'll be using Rye)
Fall: Harvest Rice / Grow Clover + Winter Rye
Late Fall/Early Winter: Sow Rice
Early Spring: supplement Clover if necessary
Late Spring: Supplement Rice if necessary / harvest Winter crop

I'm trying to rotate out the curcurbits, and only bed I have that isn't growing any this year is the New Kitchen Garden. I'll want plenty of N and plenty of mulch, so I'm thinking Hairy Vetch and winter killing Oat for Winter Covercrop. I'll want to sow parsley to overwinter too. In spring, I'll want to only sparsely plant things that will come out by late June/early July so they'll be out of there by the time the pumpkins and squash neeed the room. Pumpkin and Butternut Squash seems to be a common combination.

I've started thinking about all my garden beds in these terms.... :wink:

p.s. that seminar sounds interesting. Please let us know what you find out. :D
Last edited by applestar on Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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gixxerific
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applestar wrote::lol: You sure you want to follow me along here? :lol:

I'd follow you anywhere, if I get lost I can always ask for directions. :D

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sheeshshe
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can you explain to me "cover crops"? what are they exactly, what are their purpose?

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gixxerific
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sheeshshe wrote:can you explain to me "cover crops"? what are they exactly, what are their purpose?
The simple explanation is that cover crops are crops that you put in while your regular garden is down. They would be something more than likely that fixes nitrogen from the air and puts it in the soil. They can also be just a crop that grows in your garden space and is turned into a "green" mulch for the following season. They also serve the purpose of keeping weeds down. They are usually turned in or lust let to die on their own adding nutrients to the soil. Some can be harvested for food others just for compost or turning back into the soil as is.

You saw the list Apple posted there are many different types of cover crops and they all have their own purposes of what they do and how long they last.

Google Cover Crop there is a ton of info on them.

I Hope this helps.

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Good answer Gixx. :D
Here's a link to a Cover Crop Chart I use (there are others, but this one's pretty good with lots of details. You DO have to consider regional climate differences.):
https://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/features/0104/no-till/chart.shtml

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