What can you tell me about root systems?

[Dixana]

I mentioned in another thread how crammed together my plants are going to be.
Toil mentioned something about how not to plant plants with similar root systems together.
Can anyone tell me which plants have similar root systems and should be spaced with a different plant in between?
I have: several tomato varieties, a few papper varieties, snap pea, green and yellow bush beans, zucchini, yellow squash, eggplant (black beauty), and watermelon (crimson sweet).
Thoughts?

[applestar]

I guess you haven't seen these yet. They are definitely food for thought:
https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137toc.html
https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010139fieldcroproots/010139toc.html

[applestar]

I have: several tomato varieties, a few papper varieties, snap pea, green and yellow bush beans, zucchini, yellow squash, eggplant (black beauty), and watermelon (crimson sweet).
Thoughts?

OK, I read your other thread, and what you're asking "clicked".

You need to think about not only root systems, but upper foliage development as well as sun, water, soil, and nutrition needs. Also, growing seasons/temp requirement.

It gets pretty complicated, but it's also kind of fun if you think of it like a jigsaw puzzle.

For example, are you saying your already have snap peas in place? Since snap peas will be done very soon, AND since they will have enriched the soil with their nitrogen-fixing, you could plant your zukes and squashes near by, CUT OFF THE pea vines at root level when done (do NOT pull out the roots or you defeat the entire purpose of growing Nitrogen Fixers), and the wide spreading squash roots AND vines will overtake the area. That would be one example.

I think bush beans are good to grow near winter squash, but judgment is called for regarding distance. The idea is that bush beans will be done sometime mid-summer, then the winter squash can overtake the area. Watermelon might work too, depending on how long the maturity is. I remember reading that Crimson Sweet is a shorter maturity -- was it 80 days? Bush beans range between around 55 days to 75 days to harvest.

Last year, my bush bean/delicata squash combination because the bush beans grew faster than I expected and became too dense to allow the squash to overtake in growth habits (first time growing Delicata and I didn't know its growth characteristics). On the other hand, the bush bean/pumpkin combination worked beautifully because the pumpking promptly grew some giant leaves to shade away the bush beans and then grew a long vine to ESCAPE out of the bush bean foliage zone. The bush beans continued to grow and the pumpkin produced 1-1/2 fruits. One really nice one. The second one failed due to a sudden attack of powdery mildew.

Modest growing/sized peppers and eggplants -- again, best to pair with earlier cool season crops that are going away -- like peas, add shallow rootedness of lettuce, spinach, onions. Garlic planted previous fall could also work as they're harvested away by mid-summer. Tomatoes -- same reasoning but they grow deeper, wider, and taller.

Around late July/early August, I might plant fall lettuce and spinach under tomatoes.

I'm not saying my ideas always work, and I ask you to keep in mind that I grow mostly for fun and not necessarily for production or size. With that caveat, here are some of my mixed plantings:

Here's a packed to the hilt 4'x4' bed. This one is designed mostly for seasonal succession:
[img]https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll272/applesbucket/Image6926.jpg[/img]
Seed sown Spinach in the far left corner, transplants of Kale, then different kinds of lettuce along the near edge, succession seeded carrots/radish with one odd turnip in between. A center tee pee of sugar snap peas, cilantro in the shaded far right quadrant. Dill here and there. Three earliest planted tomato transplants, of which I thin you only see the one in the near right corner. The center front tomato was recently planted after two lettuce were harvested from that spot, and you can see a tiny tomato seedling that was planted yesterday just beyond the Kale. The big Kale leaves will be harvested -- probably tomorrow (I only left them in place to help shade and protect it.) When the tomato starts taking off, the kale will be declared forfeit and cut at ground level. Don't know if you can see the other large tomato just past the left edge of peas, and the tiny seedling planted in the far left corner after taking out some sacrificial spinach. I know you can't see the 3rd large tomato in the far right corner. As a sort of an experiment, I scattered carrot seeds in the center of the peas where there should be some open space. With some luck, I'll find carrot seedlings growing there when I cut the pea vines after they're done. They should be able to grow if they're not too shaded by the tomatoes.

Here's a perennial plant grouping:
[img]https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll272/applesbucket/Image6945.jpg[/img]
Shallow-rooted strawberry, intended to multiply and fill the front, two shallow-rooted (but deeper compared to strawberry) lowbush blueberries, then the deep rooted rhubarb in the back. Some more strawberries, yarrow, and sedum in the back.

[applestar]

Here's another one:
[img]https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll272/applesbucket/Image6927.jpg[/img]
We have a gone to seed daikon radish dominating, but it'll soon be gone. The carrot, I'm pretty sure, is another one that was supposed to go to seed, though I may pull it soon because there's no sign of flower stalk. I have some Bulls Blood and Chioggiea beet seeds sprouting in the near front and scattered. One miniature cabbage that is started to head up, with a tomato transplant waiting to be planted in its place. A lone pole pea (the others planted along the left side under the trellis didn't grow) A whole bunch of self-seeded leaf lettuce, with hard to see but a row of garlic along the back. There's an open quadrant in the far left where I just sowed melon seeds. By the time they start growing, the lettuce should be gone. The melons are intended to grow up the fence and trellis. When the daikon plant is gone, I'm putting in sweet potato slips here.

This is what's to the right of the above photo. You can see the Red Glacier iceburgs are almost ready to come out to make room for the cabbages, and the cabbages (or at least I think they're cabbages, the red one is, one or both of the green ones maybe cauliflower ) will be gone by the time the sweet potatoes venture out this way. The garlic will be harvested by late July/early August.
[img]https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll272/applesbucket/Image6923-1.jpg[/img]

[Dixana]

WELL +$#&!
My peas aren't close to done, they got planted 3 weeks ago in an area of the garden about 12 inches from a cement retaining wall and be slightly shaded where they will hoepfully still grow. My options at this point are rather limited aside from sticking tons of stuff in containers....

this is a very rough idea of the garden thus far:
..........................................southside and retaining wall.......................
PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
.....................................................................................................................Z
W ................................................................................................................Z
W...................................................................................................................
W .................T..............................................................................................
.......................T............................................................................................YS
......................T............................................................................................YS

........... .............................................................................Shed sits here

P is peas, T is tomatoes, W watermelon Z zucchini YS yellow squash. I placed the vining stuff on the edges so I can trail it out on the lawn. There are literally only 3 toms in the ground right now as I found another huge rock I'm digging out. ORIGINALLY I was going to row my beans right alongside the peas, now I'm thinking perhaps I should put beans in little rows between tomatoes and eggplants......
UGH I just don't like this. I'm spoiled and used to having seperate beds for everything. I never had a problem planting toms 18 inches apart cuz they were on row, side by side in front of the house, zucchini and yellow squash 12 inches apart one vine down the side of the garage the other down the back......
It never even occurred to me one plant will shade the other etc etc..
HELP! I can't even expand anything anymroe unless I want to rip out plants first

[Dixana]

I got the letters to stay now......so thats a rough idea of my garden.....
Between rocks and sudden concern my plants aren't going to grow I'm ready to rip my hair out :'(

[applestar]

Go back and edit your post -- replace the <spaces> with <.> so we can see the spacing. For some reason the text editor doesn't allow spaces. Also indicate which way is south -- a likely direction the vines will grow.

[Dixana]

AS you're my favorite person today........
The eastern side is where the watermelon are southside is the peas and retaining wall. There's NO 5HADE at all on the garden from 8 am til about 5.
To give you another rough idea, the garden is a smidge over 13 feet from retaining wall (peas) to shed and about 24 feet the other way....
How I'm going to stick beans, 3 eggplants, 13 peppers and a load of tomatoes I don't know

[applestar]

Well, I would start by building a 7 ft trellis along near edge by the shed and planting the tomatoes along that long near side. At 24' you could plant 12 tomatoes.

This is experimental so I can't say for sure it will work, but here's my New Tomato Area. with two 7'x4' concrete reinforcing mesh trellis standing up next to the house. I have another one on its side on the far side, and I intend to do a modified "Florida weave between the panels and the tomatoes. Read the rest of the story for this area in [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=134662#134662]this thread[/url].
[img]https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll272/applesbucket/Image6916.jpg[/img]

I like your idea for planting the bush beans between tomatoes and eggplants. Remember that bush beans don't need full sun and can manage a bit of shade.

The beans could be between watermelon and the rest of the vegs too -- the beans grow about 18"H at the most. Arrange tallest to the north (I'm thinking tomatoes), shortest to just this side (unshaded by wall) of south.

You could also arrange an arched concrete reinforcing mesh or hog panel (apparently) trellis for the vining plants to grow on. Remember, an arch is a longer distance/area than a flat line/area. In addition, watermelon can technically be trained on a vertical trellis if you provide a hammock/sling for the fruits unless you're growing the really huge kind (but I think you're not).

[Dixana]

How big do eggplant get? I only have 3 I was thinking I could stick them north to south alongside the squash.
I was just going to stake the toms, I had better luck with that last year than cages the year before, not a good idea? The majority of my toms are pear and cherry indeterminates and I don't let them get past 4 feet I keep them trimmed.....
My peppers have never gone over 2 feet in the past so maybe plant those east to west next to the peas, then then beans east to west next to peppers then the toms on the northside east to west so they get good sun??? I wasn't planning on doing rows per se but I will if that will utilize space best.......

[Dixana]

My honey loves me and in honor of my birthday (today! and he came home for a bit to see me!), mothers day and our anniversary he has decided to grab the rototiller and give me a bigger garden!
I'm thrilled but a tiny bit concerned about digging up the watermelon and toms but its all good!

[applestar]

!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!

Good luck and and have fun with your (bigger) garden!

[Dixana]

Thanks AS!
And now I don't have to feel guilty about buying that black krim tomato this morning

[scot29]

For example, are you saying your already have snap peas in place? Since snap peas will be done very soon, AND since they will have enriched the soil with their nitrogen-fixing, you could plant your zukes and squashes near by, CUT OFF THE pea vines at root level when done (do NOT pull out the roots or you defeat the entire purpose of growing Nitrogen Fixers), and the wide spreading squash roots AND vines will overtake the area. That would be one example.

HB Dixana Also - those are great looking beds AS!
I didn't know that pulling legumes negated their nitrogen fixing. For those of us who till, should we just till them in at the end of the season, or maybe pull them the following spring?

[applestar]

If you must till (:roll: ) then definitely till in the roots AND the tops at the end of the season so they'll break down in the soil over the winter.

I used to put the tops in the compost pile. Now I'm using them as mulch as per Ruth Stout and Emilia Hazelip, as well as Masanobu Fukuoka (though I can't recall if he was as specific about using legume tops as mulch -- he DOES use rice straw as mulch).