Worst Garden Ever

[gixxerific]

I'm about ready to give up. This is the worst garden ever I just don't know what happened. Stuff is growing but not how it should. Something with the soil. I have things doing better in pots than I do in the actual garden.

Maybe unfinished compost, maybe too much added finished compost. Maybe it's because I didn't throw a bunch of blood meal and bone meal down like I normally do. Maybe it has something to do with not tilling up the ground like I normally do. Could be a bunch of things.

It's really upsetting me. My neighbor who tilled his garden last fall did nothing but add topsoil and a bunch o 12-12-12 has lush dark green tomatoes that he planted after me and mine are looking like they are about to die any minute now.

I have never had problems like this before. I'm just sick thinking about it. I had done so much prep for this to come up with messily plants.

[crobi13]

(((hugs)))

[applestar]

Gixx, only thing I can think of, is that it's TOO MUCH compost/manure. I know you got a lot of the really good rich stuff. If you have inches of that sitting on top, the whole thing might be too rich or unbalanced. My failed transplant/seed starting mix was 1/3 sand and 2/3 bagged compost with no soil in the mixture. My luffa starts are suffering in that mix still, though the toms and peps have started to turn around after being outside directly on the ground with earthworms and other soil biology visiting through the drain holes, and maybe after being rained on and having had some extra stuff leached out (rather than the water being retained in the drip tray to be sucked back in again).

I know you grew a lot of great tomato and pepper starts -- they look a heck of a lot better than mine, to tell you the truth -- but maybe the thing to do is to try using up all that richness with things that appreciate it.
You said yourself some things are growing well.

You could also try scraping away the compost layer so there's only an inch or two and plant through the compost into the underlying soil, no matter how bad you think that is. I guess you can also try tilling a section to see if the mixing with the underlying soil will help, and push back your no-till soil development until fall. I rather think your soil is going to be unbelievable next spring WITHOUT tilling after Mother Nature has been given the chance to do her stuff.

[Ozark Lady]

Hugs!

Did you buy organic seeds? I have heard tell, and I don't know if it is fact or fiction, that plants are addicted to chemicals. And the first generation away from the chemicals will not do well. Only second generation away will begin to recover and not be dependant on the chemicals. This chemical dependence is even inherited. And when you save seeds from survivors, you are breaking that cycle. Where did I read it? I don't recall.

I have noticed seeds saved by individuals are outperforming the store bought seeds that I have planted.

[gixxerific]

I cant do too much this year most of my stuff is planted for now. I do still have some tomatoes ready to go I thought about maybe replacing some of the worst looking ones. Than digging a bigger hole and putting in good potting/.garden soil. There is really not much if any room to change things up at the moment. Maybe after the spring crops die down I will make some changes.

Now I did dig down deep on the tomatoes probably 8 or more inches till I saw clay, but the majority of the top layer is compost and composted manure. You would think that would be good. They might come around.

I really need to get as soil sample done but I can't spend the money on that right now we are getting more broke by the week.

OL all my seeds are organic and a few from members on here are actually the ones hurting the most. But the thing is they were all doing great with no fertilization until I put them in the ground. Like I said the ones I put in pots with a bagged soil mix and some compost are doing much better.

Maybe things will turn around. Maybe I'm expecting too much too early. But than I look at my neighbors plants that look like they should be on the cover of a magazine, than I see my sad examples.

[cynthia_h]

Nothing to do with a neighbor hitting your plants with chemicals?

Cynthia

[gixxerific]

Nothing to do with a neighbor hitting your plants with chemicals?

Cynthia

No I wish it was that simple.

[Organic4Life]

Maybe your garden will turn around real soon...

I have the best garden (raised bed-organic) this year that I've had in my 40-years of gardening.

Goliath tomato plants almost shoulder high, Celebrity tomatoes now waist high... all loaded with blooms and small tomatoes near golf ball size. Also, lots of pepper plants growing and blooming nicely.

All were put in the ground the week before Easter, in zone 8.

Best wishes...

[farmerlon]

I have heard tell, and I don't know if it is fact or fiction, that plants are addicted to chemicals. And the first generation away from the chemicals will not do well. Only second generation away will begin to recover and not be dependant on the chemicals. This chemical dependence is even inherited. And when you save seeds from survivors, you are breaking that cycle. Where did I read it? I don't recall.

That's very interesting. That theory seems like it could be factual, but also seems that it might be an "urban legend" (or garden legend).
I would cartainly be interested in reading more about that, if you happen to recall or rediscover any of the sources.

gixx ... So sorry to hear about your current struggle with the garden; it can certainly be frustrating to poor a lot of heart & soul (and work) into something, and then have it not pan out as you might have hoped.
I hope it turns around for you soon ... best of luck!

[DoubleDogFarm]

Did you buy organic seeds? I have heard tell, and I don't know if it is fact or fiction, that plants are addicted to chemicals. And the first generation away from the chemicals will not do well. Only second generation away will begin to recover and not be dependant on the chemicals. This chemical dependence is even inherited. And when you save seeds from survivors, you are breaking that cycle. Where did I read it? I don't recall.

I'd also be interested in reading this. I'm thinking it's FOO I do believe that seed can become climatized to your zone by collecting Open Pollinated seed for generations.

[rainbowgardener]

I'm a little confused, gixx. I saw the pictures of tomato plants that you posted in the June Racers thread, yesterday morning. Some, but not all, of them look a bit pale and yellow-y still, but not as bad as earlier pictures, looks like they are recovering. All of them are pretty good sized, sturdy stems, and have tomatoes on them that are well ahead of the little baby tomatoes I have.

Doesn't look so bad to me! Hang in there!

I do think some of Apple's advice about just mixxing (gixx mixxes!) the compost in to the soil a little better sounds good. You could just do that with a trowel around the plants without disturbing them. And keep watering as much as you can (without waterlogging them), to flush some through.

[jal_ut]

but the majority of the top layer is compost and composted manure.

Manure and compost are great soil amendments. I said soil. Yes, soil is that wonderful layer that covers much of the earth and is what plants grow in. Start with Soil then add a bit of manure or compost. An inch of manure or compost is plenty if mixed in well. If your soil is heavy in clay, add some sand to loosen it up.

Manure and compost are very close to the same thing; partially digested organic matter. Rich in plant nutrients, but too "hot" for good growing by themselves. I have seen garden plots ruined for two years by the application of too much manure. Nothing would grow. ("If a little manure or compost is good, a whole lot is better." is a poor assumption. )

Most soils contain clay, silt, sand, humus, organic matter, chemicals, water, and a host of living organisms: bacteria, yeasts, fungi, worms, and insects. A vital part of soil is the mineral part, sand silt and clay. I think too many gardeners try to make phony soil and forget or ignore this requirement.

Our goal should be to improve our soil, not try to make soil. Have you ever wondered how long it took to make the soil that covers this earth? Have you taken a moment to see the bounty that grows in real soil?

May I suggest that we start with real soil and amend it with the goal of improving its fertility?

[BrianSkilton]

Jal_Ut nicely written. Your 100 percent right. Gixx try not to kill yourself about the plants not growing how you want them. I remember last year I planted my tomato plants in JUNE in JUNE as the weather in May was down right cold, some days were in the 40's only (for May that is pathetic). This year again we have had a better April with days in the 80's and a week of upper 40's in May. Lucky I have the Wall O Waters that are helping. However my Tomato plants last year took forever to grow, but when that weather hit high temps they were sky rocketing! Keep a positive mind, things will work out...

[Jbest]

I'm a little confused, gixx. I saw the pictures of tomato plants that you posted in the June Racers thread, yesterday morning. Some, but not all, of them look a bit pale and yellow-y still, but not as bad as earlier pictures, looks like they are recovering. All of them are pretty good sized, sturdy stems, and have tomatoes on them that are well ahead of the little baby tomatoes I have.

If the tomatoes were that big, what size pots were they in and were they root bound. All the roots may be competing for the same moisture and nutrients. I would give them time to send out roots into the garden soil. In the mean time make sure the root ball is getting plenty of water also.

[Zapatay]

That stinks Gixx.
Sounds like there could be some light when this weather turns warmer


Gardening has a way of humbling us, doesn't it?

[Kelly_Guy]

but the majority of the top layer is compost and composted manure.

Manure and compost are great soil amendments. I said soil. Yes, soil is that wonderful layer that covers much of the earth and is what plants grow in. Start with Soil then add a bit of manure or compost. An inch of manure or compost is plenty if mixed in well. If your soil is heavy in clay, add some sand to loosen it up.

Manure and compost are very close to the same thing; partially digested organic matter. Rich in plant nutrients, but too "hot" for good growing by themselves. I have seen garden plots ruined for two years by the application of too much manure. Nothing would grow. ("If a little manure or compost is good, a whole lot is better." is a poor assumption. )

Most soils contain clay, silt, sand, humus, organic matter, chemicals, water, and a host of living organisms: bacteria, yeasts, fungi, worms, and insects. A vital part of soil is the mineral part, sand silt and clay. I think too many gardeners try to make phony soil and forget or ignore this requirement.

Our goal should be to improve our soil, not try to make soil. Have you ever wondered how long it took to make the soil that covers this earth? Have you taken a moment to see the bounty that grows in real soil?

May I suggest that we start with real soil and amend it with the goal of improving its fertility?

Getting back to gardening after a long hiatus, and doing raised bed gardening versus till and row for the first time, I am learning this personally. Thanks for your post.

Kelly

[gixxerific]

RBG yes some have tomatoes on them and they are somewhat greening up. Those in the pics are not the same ones I took before when I was wondering what was wrong with them. They still look bad but slightly getting better. Also quite a few of the ones with tomatoes are only about a foot out of the ground. I almost think the tomatoes are slowing the plant down that could be another thing.

Jal I understand I went overboard and that may be the main concerning factor here. If I would have tilled it all in together I believe it would be doing better. That was my goal to till it all in than I decided to try without tilling. There is somewhat virgin soil at the bottom of the holes but since they are being transplanted the roots will grow more laterally than straight down.

BrianS I'm am hoping once thing warm up they will skyrocket. They were planted pretty early.

Jbest I had them in gallon pots, but some were about 2 feet give or take. Yes they were a bit rootbound. Hoping they will figure it out.

All I know right now that this is the worst garden I have ever had and am not liking it. Even last year in some fairly crappy soil I had mammoth tomatoes and other veggies that simply took over the place. I know next year will be good I think, of course I thought this year was going to be great. But as some of you have said it's not over yet.

[Delilah]

It might actually be the manure. Crops have been devastated all over the UK because of residues of chemical herbicides that pass through animal guts unchanged, end up in the manure and go on to kill and maim plants everwhere. It's a huge contamination scandal that is also affecting the US:

https://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jun/29/food.agriculture

https://www.rachelcarsoncouncil.org/index.php?page=a-gardener-alert--update

Possible?

[garden5]

Man, Gix, that really stinks! From reading what everyone else has said, it does sound like it may be the compost. Did you till it or just layer it on top (I think you just layered it)? One thing that's coming to my mind is that it wasn't completely finished. I've read that compost should sit for at least a month after it looks ready to use.

The bacterial may be drawing nutrients (nitrogen) from the soil to continue breaking down the organic material.

You may also need a string of nice weather, too. Some warmth may be what you garden is waiting for.

Just sit tight, I'm sure everything will work out great.

[gixxerific]

Possible delilah but unlikely. I have been getting free manure from this same place for 10+ years and have never had a problem.

If it ever stops raining here I will try to rough up the soil a bit.

But I believe this fall I will get a load of topsoil an till in. After mixing the garden real good. The microbiology will just to make a comeback. I know there will be worms because there are so frigging many now. I shouldn't have gone no-till so soon in my newer gardens progress.

Yeah G5 It was basically just layered on. It was pretty well finished. Still warm but nice and crumbly like good compost should be. I did let it sit for a month or so as well before planting.

[Ozark Lady]

Gixx, be careful with hauling in topsoil.

I hauled one load and it is junk, plain and simply, now residing in my compost bin for the bacteria and worms to fix it. The second load is better, but really, not as good as my own garden soil.

I would just use hay to mulch and wait and see.

[cynthia_h]

Possible delilah but unlikely. I have been getting free manure from this same place for 10+ years and have never had a problem.

If it ever stops raining here I will try to rough up the soil a bit.

W/regard to the manure situation in Britain, that was in 2008. It took several months (from March to perhaps June or July) for the chain of contamination to be figured out, but I haven't read anything since then about a recurrence. Thank goodness.

And, gixx, I think the major clue to your garden's performance is your own words..."If it ever stops raining here..." The soil is water-logged and the plants are cold. Nashville has flooded, middle Tennessee is soaked. The weather patterns are weird (again). Plant roots need air to breathe just like people and animals do.

It could be as basic as this.

Cynthia

[gixxerific]

OL thanks for the heads up on topsoil. But I know a few good places around to get stuff and I know a LOT of bad places. I always check it out first. Last year my neighbor bought some locally, I wish he would have talked to me first I would have told him not to go there. But he ended up with wild onions taking over his flower bed.

Cynthia thanks for your advice but again I don't think it was over watering. It has been weekend rains here and this soil/compost drains rather well. Just this week is a sever thunderstorm every day for a week straight. Some places got over 2 inches in a little over an hour this morning. That will not help but before this it was about right I even had to water a few times.

All in all I think it will be alright eventually I have never had this slow of a start before.

Now on to a thread about possible early blight on my spuds. Will it ever stop. At least I haven't seen any bad bugs yet, last year was my worst bug year ever.

[applestar]

Quick question: Have you fractured/forked the underlying soil?

[gixxerific]

Quick question: Have you fractured/forked the underlying soil?

I dug pretty deep into the clay if that is what you mean. I did break it up a bit than threw in some loose soil/compost before putting in the plants. I did mix it up a bit at least the top layer with a shovel and rake.

[applestar]

Nope. I meant when you were layering on the manure/compost. Plunge the garden fork in as far as it would go, and wiggle. I stand on mine to get the tines into the clay, then sway a bit before stepping off and yanking it out. About every big step in all directions. -- My standard prep before sheet mulching a lawn area. The holes made by the tines as well as the fracturing creates fissures for the worms and other soil organisms to travel -- they make their own cross tunnels. All that fissuring and tunneling creates micro-passageways for the air, water, nutrients, and microbes to penetrate deeper into the clay and begin the conversion into good soil.

In my garden, the moles follow the worms and make even more tunnels that then presumably get flooded with each rain, washing even more good stuff into the clay. The plant roots will follow the fissures and tunnels -- I really don't have to dig around much and by the end of the season, there's nice fluffy soil. Then, of course, I don't pull out the plants but cut them at soil level, leaving all those roots to break down in the soil to whatever depth and root growth pattern they made.

[rainbowgardener]

"Then, of course, I don't pull out the plants but cut them at soil level, leaving all those roots to break down in the soil to whatever depth and root growth pattern they made."

That sounds like a nice idea.. So far when the tomatoes and peppers and stuff are done for the season, I have pulled them out roots and all. Put the soft stuff in the compost pile, let the stuff that is too tough and woody dry out for awhile and then run thru the chipper/shredder, then compost.

When you leave the roots in the ground in the fall, have they mostly broken down by the next spring's planting, or are there still root clumps sitting around under ground? The latter result would deter me a bit, since I just have my few raised beds, I can't just go plant somewhere else while I wait for the roots to finish breaking down.

Thanks! RBG

[Jbest]

"Then, of course, I don't pull out the plants but cut them at soil level, leaving all those roots to break down in the soil to whatever depth and root growth pattern they made."

That sounds like a nice idea.. So far when the tomatoes and peppers and stuff are done for the season, I have pulled them out roots and all. Put the soft stuff in the compost pile, let the stuff that is too tough and woody dry out for awhile and then run thru the chipper/shredder, then compost.

When you leave the roots in the ground in the fall, have they mostly broken down by the next spring's planting, or are there still root clumps sitting around under ground? The latter result would deter me a bit, since I just have my few raised beds, I can't just go plant somewhere else while I wait for the roots to finish breaking down.

Thanks! RBG

Its a good idea to leave the roots in place. The Mycorrhizal Fungi colonize on the roots which will stimulate next years roots. The only part that I can find in the spring is the main stem which will pull out easily.

[gixxerific]

No I didn't do the fork method I don't own one though I would like to get one if I ever start working again.

I also cut off plants at soil level and leave the roots to rot. Though not tomatoes since they are known to harbor disease plus they take forever to break down.

[jal_ut]

gix, I would just give it some time. I think we need some warm weather. I understand you are trying to go the no-till way. May I suggest this fall after frost, you till it deeply one more time and mix some of the underlaying soil/clay with the top material. The addition of a little sand would be good at this time too. By spring things will be fine. Then you can go with no-till and add mulch and a little compost or manure each season. The bio community will work the organic matter into the soil. The roots of plants go quite deep and this also adds organic matter to the underlying layers. You should have a great garden next year. I think things are a little out of balance right now.

Clay is not all bad. A soil with about 1/4 clay is great in fact. The clay holds water well and comes in close contact with the root hairs so the roots can absorb the water and nutrients. Clay, silt and sand work together to eliminate large air pockets which allow roots to dry out. Also the clay, silt and sand provide many minerals that your plants need.

You don't need to worry about disturbing the bio community by tilling to mix your soil ingredients together and incorporate organic matter. The spores of those organisms are everywhere. They will take off and grow if given the oportunity and a favorable environment.

[gixxerific]

Thanks Jal that is what I intend to do. I'm already planning for next years garden and this one hasn't even started yet. I should have tilled deeply last fall, I'm pretty sure I didn't. I will be adding another row, which I have already started to sheet mulch. So I will give it all a good workout this fall.

It should be great next year, but that is what I said last year. Who know there is still time it may still be great this year. I just have to stop being so hard on myself.

[applestar]

It'll get there, Gixx. My goal is to leave this property in better condition than I found it -- in terms of soil biology, environment and habitat, natural community, and productivity. You're already well on your way.

Jbest is right. Only stalks that can be persistent are corn, and those I just leave in place and plant around, unless I HAVE to put something there or the stalks keep getting in the way, then I cut those flying buttress roots and they just fall over. Even sunflower stalks are ready to come out by spring. I just bury the 1/2 decayed stem along the border or put them in the compost pile.

I throw out in trash any tomato stalks that had suffered disease but leave the roots in place. I don't plant tomatoes in the same spot the following year. Same with potatoes. I'm not as consistent with peppers and eggplants, but I'll follow the same regimen if they get diseased.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Containerized plants can be really finicky about coming out of the root ball and soil they have been in for a long time; we call this a soil interface and it can be a real setback for a plant. I think John might well be on to something...

I think you might have hit on it yourself to some degree, Gixx. Too much unfinished compost could be causing nitrogen lock as the bacteria propagate to finish the digesting job. If that is the case some hay (as I have often suggested) will add a huge shot of cililates that will tear into a big bacterial population and start some nitrogen release. You can be dumping on nitrogen and only locking it up in bacteria; protozoa are our first line of predatory nitrogen looping for bacteria...

I suspect the combination of the two might produce the results you are seeing... organics is complex, and you need to get a lot of things right to get it to all line up, but at least it gets easier every year... We'll help Gixx...

Umm... man-hug (high-shake in between, with back thump)

HG

[gixxerific]

I have 0 cash but there is a place 2 minutes selling straw. WE shall see how things go.

I believe the container may have something to do with it. But than again the same containerized potted plants are in bigger containers and all are about 3 feet + tall just setting fruit this week, all with bagged soil and very little fertilization. The ones in pots are a diff variety if that matters and from what I read they (spirodonovskie) are only supposed to get about 2 foot tall.

But it's not just the toms doing poorly so are some other things. It is growing but slowly. Maybe the bacteria are catching up with themselves. Or the compost is mellowing out I should say.


Side note: My peas and potatoes are doing good so far (in the ground). And my onions and carrots in pots are 30-40 times bigger than the ones in the ground.

[lakngulf]

I fill your pain, gix. Last year I kept looking at my garden and saying "What the xxxx" Squash plants just sat there, tomato plants would wilt and die, etc. Very discouraging after so many years of just great produce. But that was probably the biggest problem.....so many years.

This year I brought I top soil from some old farm land, actually moved some of the existing soil and replace it with the new top soil. At other spots I just worked the new soil in with the old. I put the rippers on a box blade at full length and ran thru the garden as much as I could. Also, I build two long boxes that have only a layer of sand and the new top soil.

Most of the garden is doing great (I need a fingers crossed emoticon) BUT three or four tomato plants are just sitting there. There are about six plants in a row, two are thriving, and the others just sit. All other plants in the garden are doing fairly well. Needless to say this area will be dug out and replaced.

Good luck with it. Maybe the warm weather will cure it all.

[gixxerific]

I just thought of something it hasn't been overly warm or overly cool here. I keep saying my tom's in the 10 gallon black pots are doing better. Maybe that is because the soil is warmer in the pots .

[garden5]

I just thought of something it hasn't been overly warm or overly cool here. I keep saying my tom's in the 10 gallon black pots are doing better. Maybe that is because the soil is warmer in the pots .

Now you're on to something, Gix! That could easily be the case. I've always heard that tomatoes that are planted in the cooler weather will kind of just sit and languish...until it warms up. They will then really take off once the weather has warmed.

I'd wait to see what happens when the weather gets consistently warm. If there is still little growth, then I'd start to be concerned. I'm sure you'll still have a great garden this year.

Good luck.

[The Helpful Gardener]

"In the beginning of August, the rice plants in the neighbors fields are already waist high, while the rice plants in my field are only about half that size. People who visit here are always sceptical and ask, "Fukuoka-san is the rice going to turn out alright?" "Sure" I answer. "No need to worry."

I do not try to raise tall fast growing plants with big leaves. Instead I keep the plants as compact as possible. Keep the head small, do not overnourish the plant. and let them grow true to the natural form of the rice plant.

Masanobu Fukuoka, One Straw Revolution



HG

[gixxerific]

"In the beginning of August, the rice plants in the neighbors fields are already waist high, while the rice plants in my field are only about half that size. People who visit here are always skeptical and ask, "Fukuoka-san is the rice going to turn out alright?" "Sure" I answer. "No need to worry."

I do not try to raise tall fast growing plants with big leaves. Instead I keep the plants as compact as possible. Keep the head small, do not overnourish the plant. and let them grow true to the natural form of the rice plant.

Masanobu Fukuoka, One Straw Revolution



HG

Yeah that's...... uhhhh...... what I'm ...... uhhhh...... doing..... yeah that's it.

You got me, I couldn't pull the wool over your eyes.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Gixx, I'm just sayin' (like it says on the cover of the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy)...

DON'T PANIC!

HG