Damaged seedlings, what did I do wrong?

[Mr_Wellington]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum, and new to gardening as well

It looks like I damaged some seedlings that I recently transplanted outside, the photos are below.

These happen to be cabbage seedlings. I started them from seed in my indoor growing station (in my garage). For the first week or so (from planting) they got full heat and light and germinated quite nicely. Temps were about 75F or so.

Then I *tried* to start hardening them off. I put a fan on them for about 4 hours a day. Then I turned the heat lamp off and temps were about 55F or so for about 10 days. I also started giving them only 18 hours of light per day.

Towards the end, they were getting 8 hours of fan, no artificial heat, and 18 hours of light per day.

Then I transplanted them outside. Highs were about 55F, and lows got close to freezing, but never below 34F. Winds were very strong however, from 10 to 20 mph gusts.

It was mostly cloudy the first few days, very little direct sun.

I have them one dose of "seed starter" liquid fertilizer a week before transplanting them outside (after they started to show two true leaves), then then I fertilized them again the same way right after planting them in their new homes outside.

I kept all of them well watered. Drenched them upon transplanting, then twice a day after that, in well drained soil.

Half were transplanted while still in the same peat pot they were grown in, and the other half I ditched the pot and planted directly into soil. They all ended up the same. However, for the ones that I directed planted ... they all fell over completely flat on their sides within 4 hours of transplanting outside (the ones in the peat pots remained upright). But they all ended up withering anyway.

What killed/damaged these little guys? Too much cold? Too much sun? Too much fertilizer? Too much water? Not enough of any of these?

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[Mr_Wellington]

This is only a guess, but I think that real sunlight did them in. The grow lights are great, but hardening off consists of getting the plants used to sunlight as well as wind.
Next time try moving the little guys out for an hour into dapple shade, next day three or four hours in dapple shade, then a couple of hours in direct sun, then more sun until after 10-14 days, they are on their own. I know this sounds like a lot of toting plants around, but it does help them acclimate.

Thank you Marlingardener. You may very well be right ... I believe the grow light is 40 watts. I thought 18 hours a day was enough to "UV harden" them, but perhaps not. For the first few hours after transplanting them in the garden, there were thick clouds in the sky, yet half of them fell over at that time. That might have been because of the strong winds, hence why I tried propping them up with toothpicks. But for the next several days, they did indeed receive 15 to 30 minutes of direct direct sun a few times a day, I suppose that is likely what did them in. Next time I will be sure to gradually expose them to direct sunlight as you suggested. Yes it is a lot of toting around, but I suppose it's worth it

[Joyfirst]

You can also put milk jugs with bottoms cut out and caps open over them to protect them from wind and exessive sun at the beginning.

[elementfiftyfour]

Seeing how moist the soil looks in the pictures and that you mention watering them a lot then I would suspect that may be what did them in.

[GardenJester]

oh man... fertilizer, overwatering, grow lights, tranplanting without hardening? I think the plants died from ODing on kindness. The ones that died on transplant is because you didn't harden it first. It's like throwing your pampered hosue cat that never set paw outside, into the woods and ask it to survive.

[StorageSmart2]

oh man... fertilizer, overwatering, grow lights, tranplanting without hardening? I think the plants died from ODing on kindness. The ones that died on transplant is because you didn't harden it first. It's like throwing your pampered hosue cat that never set paw outside, into the woods and ask it to survive.

lol. That's not necessarily true, but I see where you're coming from. I agree that sometimes people can go a little over board. It's natural to be nervous when you're just starting out.

Half were transplanted while still in the same peat pot they were grown in, and the other half I ditched the pot and planted directly into soil. They all ended up the same. However, for the ones that I directed planted ... they all fell over completely flat on their sides within 4 hours of transplanting outside (the ones in the peat pots remained upright). But they all ended up withering anyway.

I would guess that the ones that died on transplant might have been root damage, because they wilted immediately and the ones that remained in the peat pots stayed upright for awhile.

[DoubleDogFarm]

Mr_W,

I'm thinking you should have waited for them to become a little bigger before hardening off and transplanting. Picture #3 looks a little spindly. Near the ground level its actually broken, probably do to the wind.

Did you start these brassicas in the peat pots Maybe try starting the seeds in open flats, then prick and pot up. This way, if they get leggy, you can pot them up deeper.

Here is a Thompson Organic Broccoli. This is the size I like to transplant.

[img]https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/eric_wa/DSC02107.jpg[/img]

Now if I could only get spinach starts to work for me

[rainbowgardener]

I can't see your pictures, so I just have to go by what you and others have said here.

You got a lot of responses quickly, so mostly I'm just agreeing with what people have said.

1) Sounds like you tried to do some kind of indoor hardening off program. Doesn't work! Doesn't matter how much light you have on plants for how many hours (and actually 40 watts doesn't sound like a lot), direct sun is like 100's of times more. Our eyes are so good at adapting we don't even realize how much brighter even a dim day outside is than the brightest lit indoors. Hardening off MEANS gradually adapting them to outdoors conditions.

2) WIND is killer for tender plants. Try real hard not to move plants out on a windy day. Just dessicates them.

3) Re all the toting the plants around. A lot of that can be avoided with judicious siting. I put my plants out to harden off on my deck which only gets AM sun and is a bit protected re wind etc. Start by putting them under benches or next to walls, protected spots. The first few nights I bring them in at night, but after that if all is going well and the weather is not too fierce, they stay out. They gradually get moved from more protected sites to less protected sites and eventually down off the deck to more full sun locations. But any given day I just put the plants in the spot they are going to be that day and leave them. I have to go to work, so I can't be moving plants around during the day.

4) I agree (even without seeing the pictures) that you probably started a bit too soon, with seedlings that weren't very big yet.

5) Never plant things still in the peat pot! In fact at the beginning it may have protected them a bit and they did better. If they make it and start growing though, the peat pot will just smother the roots and eventually kill it. They are supposed to break down, but they don't (in any reasonable time).

We all learn from mistakes and all of us experienced gardeners got that way by killing a bunch of plants along the way!

[DoubleDogFarm]

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Hope you don't mind, I removed the image brackets.

[Ozark Lady]

Thanks Doubledog, wow, those poor guys do look rough.
I have their twins right here!
This has been a tough year for some seedlings for me too.
Hey, don't sweat it, it is early. Just start some more seeds!
Mine that looked like that got too little light, I was simply overloaded with plants, and some suffered like that.

I move plants to the glass doors for all day sun as it moves around, and I have to watch these too, sometimes they aren't ready even for that sun.

Then they go outside, in a cage, where I can put a shade cloth over them for most of the day, gradually increasing what sun they get. The cloth also slows the winds. The cloth is not plastic, in that, it will allow light, air, and rain through. Also, I don't feed them for a couple days prior to, and a couple days after beginning to harden them off.

I would say, you just got excited, and moved too fast, changed their world too quickly. We all do that, still!
It is warmer now, so try again, this time, it won't shock them so much, if you just shade them a bit.

[Mr_Wellington]

You can also put milk jugs with bottoms cut out and caps open over them to protect them from wind and exessive sun at the beginning.

Thanks Joyfirst for that idea, I like it, I think I will do that to help protect the little guys from wind and cold nightly temps.

Seeing how moist the soil looks in the pictures and that you mention watering them a lot then I would suspect that may be what did them in.

Yes they were very wet, but the soil is seedling soil which I'm told drains very quickly and dries quickly too? Still not sure if too much water was the issue. I did a couple of autopsies and the inside soil didn't seem too soggy. Moist, but not soggy. Although one of the ones I autopsied had a growth of white "postules" about an inch below the former soil line. It looked like some kind of fungus. A bunch of little white pasty granules all balled up about the size of a pea. Maybe that was club root? Only one of three transplants had that.

oh man... fertilizer, overwatering, grow lights, tranplanting without hardening? I think the plants died from ODing on kindness. The ones that died on transplant is because you didn't harden it first. It's like throwing your pampered hosue cat that never set paw outside, into the woods and ask it to survive.

LOL, yes I think that is certainly the case, I really pampered these little guys. Next time I need to show them some real tough love.

Did you start these brassicas in the peat pots Question Maybe try starting the seeds in open flats, then prick and pot up. This way, if they get leggy, you can pot them up deeper.

Thanks for your help DoubleDog. Yes I did plant them from seed into 3" peat pots. I only planted 6 seeds (with the plan to thin out the weakest 3 later on) because I only wanted to grow 3 cabbage plants at this time (with the plan to grow 3 more cabbage plants 2 weeks later, and so on). I don't want all my veggies to come up at once, so I am trying to sow many things in 2 to 3 week rotations so I will have a continual bounty to harvest throughout the year.

Anyway, I seeded them on 3/12. By 3/16 the first started to germinate, by 3/19 the rest had all germinated. By 3/24 the first true leaf started to appear on many. By 3/30 the second true leaf started to appear on many. On 4/7 I transplanted them outside. Less than a month.

Again, I slowly "temp hardened" them to adjust to cooler temperatures.

I think what really did them in was the abrupt exposure to real sunlight, albeit cloudy/filtered sunlight. Still way more than they could handle.

Wow, your broccoli transplant in huge! I will try to get to that size next time, after properly hardening them off of course. Not sure I have enough room in my grow station for a bunch of transplants that size
Thanks for the photo/example.

Sounds like you tried to do some kind of indoor hardening off program. Doesn't work! Doesn't matter how much light you have on plants for how many hours (and actually 40 watts doesn't sound like a lot), direct sun is like 100's of times more.

You are exactly right rainbowgardener! Indeed I did try to harden them off indoors, and it sure didn't work. I thought the cooler temps was ok, and I put the fan on them a good amount, but there is just no substitute for pure direct sunshine. I'm sure that's what killed them - the mighty sun can giveth, and the mighty sun can taketh away


I bought a cheapo light meter and I measured how much light the 40W grow light was giving off. It was about 200 on my meter. Then I took it and measured the light next to my closed glass patio door, still about 200. Then I simply slid the door open and it jumped to about 800. So even just glass can really block the full power of the sun. Then I took it out into direct sun and it pegged out to the max at 2000, more than my meter could measure. So yes, UV hardening them is essential.

WIND is killer for tender plants. Try real hard not to move plants out on a windy day.

And unfortunately we often get very strong winds where I lived, all year long. Great place for a wind turbine, bad place for little transplants. I guess the answer there is to use milk jugs as suggested above, or wait till they grow bigger until transplanting them. I'll try both.

Never plant things still in the peat pot! In fact at the beginning it may have protected them a bit and they did better. If they make it and start growing though, the peat pot will just smother the roots and eventually kill it. They are supposed to break down, but they don't (in any reasonable time).

Wow! I really surprised to hear you say this! I thought peat pots were the best new thing in the gardening world. I read elsewhere that peat pots were great because they quickly dissolve and don't hinder the plant in anyway. But then I had my doubts because I seeded them in peat pots, watering quite frequently for weeks, even had them standing in water a few times, and the peat pots never broke down at all. They seemed quite sturdy actually. I was wondering about their ability to actually breakdown. Well, I already have a bunch of other plants in the ground right now, I'll just wait and see if they grow ok. These are 3" pots. Ok, next time, I will try to avoid using peat pots, because it also seems to me that they don't breakdown fast enough.

Hey, don't sweat it, it is early. Just start some more seeds!

Done and done. As I said, I am attempting to grow most of my veggies in waves/intervals of every 2 to 3 weeks. This way, I should have veggies of all different stages of development at any one time. Not all my veggies, but many.

I think this is also a good way to learn what works and what doesn't work, then quickly learn, adjust, and try again.


Thanks for your help everybody, much appreciated!!