1yr garden at the new house...

[DoubleDogFarm]

jal,

I agree with the smothering by soil or compost. I just suggested the cardboard, for it will be gone in a year or so. No plastic.

How about the natural or un-natural barrier. Building a box on the native soil then filling it with all kinds of fluffy stuff. Isn't the native soil a barrier for a few years. Eventually worms, roots, ect will break through.

[The Helpful Gardener]

I'd agree with JAL... the barrier also would inhibit the interchange of fungal mycelia, which some real smart folks like [url=https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_stamets_on_6_ways_mushrooms_can_save_the_world.html]Paul Stamets[/url]think is how soil talks to itself...

HG

[Rob_NZ]

Wow THG.

That Mycelia lecture blew my mind. Fungi as a nutrient transporter really does open the mind in regard to soil structure in our hallowed beds. I took from the lecture though Mycelia repairs very quickly after being disturbed, I.e. tilled? Did I pick that up right? If not then is this a convincing argument for not tilling at all?

Cardboard I have been wondering about for some time and I was thinking about posing this question in a seperate thread. Is it totally safe, that is, are there any chemicals used in the manufacture of it (or newspaper and carpet) that may contaminate our food?

Very interesting thread

[AndrewH_TX]

Here's my personal philosophy on the subject. Take it as you will.

The ground my bed sits on was not prepared properly so to naturally kill off anything living there (in my case hay and weeds - Indiana Paint Brushes, Dandelions, Milk Weeds, etc.). I do not want to be fighting the hay and existing weeds in the garden, so I put down a nice thick barrier to prevent the weeds from growing up (at least to slow them down a bit and hopefully time to smoother them).

Also, the soil under my bed will be somewhat "depleted" of nutrients in comparison to the compost enriched soil I added into the bed. So the hay (and any "weed seeds" just laying on the ground) will seek out my veggie bed, not to mention my nutrients would "leak" out of the bottom if it where simply sitting on the dirt with no barrier. Why add compost if the nutrients will end up in the hay field and not the garden?

I want my veggie garden separated from everything else. I don't want to water the veggie garden and 10' all the way around because all the water leaks through the bottom (as in through the soil). When it's summer time in Texas, water is a precious commodity.

I appreciate the links. Hopefully I get a second or two today to look over them. I know there's a lot I still have to learn about gardening, but I do think most of it is common sense.

Heck if nothing else, it might be the subject of a good debate: sealed bed vs. non-sealed bed.

Guess it'll come down to several variables, but mostly "what's the bed going to be sitting on, and is it safe & beneficial or harmful and going to cause problems?"

[rainbowgardener]

And there is no general answer to say sealed or non-sealed is better. ALL GARDENING IS SITE-SPECIFIC. In Texas sealing it might be just what you need. Here in Ohio, where water just falls out of the sky all summer (tons of it last summer!), my plants would likely drown....

[AndrewH_TX]

And there is no general answer to say sealed or non-sealed is better. ALL GARDENING IS SITE-SPECIFIC. In Texas sealing it might be just what you need. Here in Ohio, where water just falls out of the sky all summer (tons of it last summer!), my plants would like drown....

LOL, exactly.

If the soil under the garden is going to cause problems (add weeds, rob nutrients, etc.) separate the garden from it. If it could help the garden, use it.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Andy, weeds are not mobile and cannot "seek" better soil than they land in. When they become buried, many can wait long periods of time (crabgrass can wait up to six feet down for a century!) to get back to the right level to germinate... BUT...

If we leave them at a lower level, and maintain biologies at sufficient levels in the soil (especially fungi), we can simply rot them, turning them from unwanted pest to welcome soil nutrition...

Not to worry; your stuff will grow, but you have limited the ability of the good soil you are building up top to extend its goodness further into your soil beneath. Or for any beneficial soil biology below to come up, which is why you are hearing so much naysaying...

Rob, if Paul Stamets doesn't blow your mind a little you are not paying attention. But no, fungal nets do NOT repair; they can regrow, but once you break mycelia, it cannot grow from the broken section (it may branch from a node, but there is no further growth from that broken end; like when you top bamboo)

DDF, that's exactly right. We have found that a soil interface (where two different soils meet) is a barrier of sorts to roots; they cross it very reluctantly. After the fungal mycelia and other biologies begin to turn that black and white interface into a gray area, then the roots begin to cross it more freely. Your high carbon cardboard is just the thing to facilitate the fungal growth that stimulates that process...

Andy, as for common sense in gardening, I have been doing this a long time and have been finding out for about the past three or four years that everything I thought I knew was mostly wrong, so I do count on what I feel a a lot of the time nowadays. Some of those gut feelings, like stopping tilling, have come to be some of my best decisions. So I won't try to talk you out of following your hunches, just offer that there is a lot of new science shedding light on what we humans do with soil and most of it has been very, very, wrong to date. I just want to discuss better ways to do it with folks...

HG

[jal_ut]

Heck if nothing else, it might be the subject of a good debate: sealed bed vs. non-sealed bed.

I take it you did not take time to read the link I gave you about how deep plant roots go? The truth is that by putting in a barrier you have severely hampered your plants ability to send down roots in search of water and nutrients. You will need to water more because of this. Try one with and one without. You don't need to believe me. It is easy to make the test.

Truth be known you could probably grow a better garden in the native soil without the bother of constructing a raised bed. Where do you suppose most of the worlds food is grown? In the native soil.

[AndrewH_TX]

Andy, weeds are not mobile and cannot "seek" better soil than they land in. When they become buried, many can wait long periods of time (crabgrass can wait up to six feet down for a century!) to get back to the right level to germinate... BUT...

Problem with hay, it doesn't seed to propagate. It'll send runners towards the surface unless there's a physical barrier. I've seen tons of farm equipment that's just been sitting in a field to prove this.

If we leave them at a lower level, and maintain biologies at sufficient levels in the soil (especially fungi), we can simply rot them, turning them from unwanted pest to welcome soil nutrition...

I personally believe the compost and the dormant soil I added will have plenty of nutrients without the extra provided by the hay underneath. Though the hay would have been beneficial I believe the potential weed factor was more of my concern. I can always add more compost, but I HATE weeds .

I still haven't ruled out the fact that "weeds" (weeds - meaning anything you didn't intend to plant/grow) may play an important role in a natural "garden".

Not to worry; your stuff will grow, but you have limited the ability of the good soil you are building up top to extend its goodness further into your soil beneath. Or for any beneficial soil biology below to come up, which is why you are hearing so much naysaying...

I do realize the fact that I've completely separated the veggie bed from the soil below, but I actually like that fact.

1. I can more precisely control the acidity and nutrients that are in the veggie bed (meaning there are less variables to deal with). And it will remain relatively consistent from top to bottom within the bed (of course growing crops within the bed will deplete the nutrients, which I'll simply add back during/after the growing seasons). I do realize I cut the bed off from a potential "nutrient supplement" by separating it from the ground below, but that also means I separated the bed from anything negative from the ground below as well.

2. I can more precisely control the moister content of the bed, and do not have to add extra water to compensate for the moister the ground below the bed will take. The beds are located within a "low spot" on the property. Not ideal by any means, so separating the ground below from the bed above was also to help control excess moister.

3. Not to mention I'll have a good idea of the soil content of what I add to the bed, but not so much the soil under the bed. There is an unused pump jack, metering equipment and holey storage tanks on the property which have been there for a long time, so separating the two soils will help prevent any contamination transfer (not that it's 100%, but better IMHO than directly touching). And we're working on getting this equipment and any contamination fixed though we don't think there is any, at least not yet .

4. This is a long term endeavor, so the ground under the beds will more than likely never be used but to support the beds.

I believe a sealed bed was the right solution for my particular set of circumstances, but I could definitely end up being proven wrong. In which case I have the opportunity next winter to change it all up, tear it all down and rebuild Rome in a day .

Andy, as for common sense in gardening, I have been doing this a long time and have been finding out for about the past three or four years that everything I thought I knew was mostly wrong, so I do count on what I feel a a lot of the time nowadays. Some of those gut feelings, like stopping tilling, have come to be some of my best decisions. So I won't try to talk you out of following your hunches, just offer that there is a lot of new science shedding light on what we humans do with soil and most of it has been very, very, wrong to date. I just want to discuss better ways to do it with folks...

HG

Oh I understand what you mean. I've always tried to stay under the mindset that I'm always in a state of "continued education". I know what has worked in the past, so that's my starting point and I'll continue to research better and easier ways to achieve the same or better results.

The links and guidance is much appreciated from all!

[AndrewH_TX]

Heck if nothing else, it might be the subject of a good debate: sealed bed vs. non-sealed bed.

I take it you did not take time to read the link I gave you about how deep plant roots go? The truth is that by putting in a barrier you have severely hampered your plants ability to send down roots in search of water and nutrients. You will need to water more because of this. Try one with and one without. You don't need to believe me. It is easy to make the test.

Truth be known you could probably grow a better garden in the native soil without the bother of constructing a raised bed. Where do you suppose most of the worlds food is grown? In the native soil.

[img]https://www.dfwfishbox.com/forums/production/images/smilies/mrs_5paperbag.gif[/img] I have not worked my way down to that link, yet.

I was thinking of the plants' roots when I built the bed, so it's approximately 18"-24" deep. I would have gone much shallower (trust me I would have loved to do less than 20+ wheelbarrows full of dirt), but one major problem about my native soil is the fact that there's a huge potential for oil/oil drilling processed to have contaminated the soil. I do not trust the soil (even if there are plenty of plants/weeds growing everywhere) until I've had it tested. Why take a chance with my daughters', or anyone else's for that matter, health? Even if the contaminates are within the "safe range", I want to know what's there before I eat what's grown within.

If it were an ideal situation, I would have simply fenced off a little section, tilled the soil and planted the seeds. But I live about 1000'-2000' from a major river and the native soil is very, very rocky. Not that rocks are necessarily a problem, but rocks in addition to the other situations I felt I needed to overcome, I believe a thick heavy barrier under a raised bed was the best solution.

I will definitely go back and read the link you provided (thank you). I don't feel I'm anywhere close to a "gardening gnome guru", so I'll take all the advice, insight and experience from others as I can get!!!

[DoubleDogFarm]

Andrew

All good thoughts, but have you thought about the mattress

What kind of nasties are outgassing from it. Will it break down add little pieces of plastic The fuzzy fake felt

Just thoughts, low concerns.

[AndrewH_TX]

I had thought about it, but figured it'd be about par with any other plastic barrier.

Though the mattress might be less suited than simple plastic it is thicker, I'm not too worried. Might look at it closely after this growing season to evaluate it's condition for next season.

[Rob_NZ]

Rob, if Paul Stamets doesn't blow your mind a little you are not paying attention. But no, fungal nets do NOT repair; they can regrow, but once you break mycelia, it cannot grow from the broken section (it may branch from a node, but there is no further growth from that broken end; like when you top bamboo)

Well, like I said he blew mine and I've been thinking a lot about it since. Since it does not repair I think for next spring (we're in Autumn now) I'm going to allocate some land to a no-till bed system based on the Emilia Hazelip system which you linked to previously in this thread. With dug paths around "raised" beds, the Mycelia will be intact across the top of the beds and I can compare crops like for like with my more traditional beds in another area. I must have high Mycelia levels because there is always Fungi popping up everywhere.

A bit concerned about cardboard/newspaper still, how much does soil need an air supply? And are there any manufacturing chemicals in cardboard and/or newspaper which we need to be concerned about?

[The Helpful Gardener]

Paper is permeable for water, so certainly for gas...

Most news inks are soybean based now, and I have used cardboard and newprint, even office paper, without incidence in a pretty well tested commercial vermicomposter.

Besides, you watched the video; how would we clean it up better than the shrooms do anyway?

HG

[DoubleDogFarm]

Rob,

Haven't research the cardboard and newsprint thoroughly. I believe most newspapers are printed with soy inks these days.

We have noticed in gardening and landscaping that cardboard usually decomposes within a year. It smothers competition then goes away.

[applestar]

Besides, you watched the video; how would we clean it up better than the shrooms do anyway?

I think that's a valid argument.

Some time ago, someone mentioned that corrugated cardboard may be treated with formaldehyde for fire retardance. But at some point, HG pointed out that it would readily break down in the outdoor environment, and I suspect that the soil biology would thoroughly take the chemical compound apart into more useful elements.

I do wonder about cardboard boxes that were shipped from overseas. I have a strong suspicion that freight ship cargo is regularly fumigated....

So folks -- all color printing on newspapers are OK now? Not just black ink?

[Dixana]

Not ALL colored paper is ok but something like 80% of colored paper is soy based these days. I've been using colored newspaper and construction paper in both my worm bedding and ny garden for several years without a problem.

On another note, I haven't had time to go and research the ppl mentioned in this link (ruth stout etc) but I'm wondering if what I've been doing for ages is along those lines....my grandma referred to it as lasagna gardening. Each fall after harvest I lay down 3-4 sheets of newspaper and soak it. Then I pile on layers of compost, manure, grass clippings, leaves, dead plants, food scraps, wood ash, sawdust....well the list goes on essentially whatever I can find. Come spring everything is all basically compost and I dig my new plants right in. I should mention in fall the pile can be as big as 3' high but come spring its only 12-18". This method has always given me awesome plants and I have never seen a weed in my garden ever. Even the bugs stay away tho I still think that is due to worm tea... Is this similar to those peoples theories? If so I might seriously consider reading up in it.
Anyway, after moving to a new house in Dec I'm not looking forward to the classic tilled weed ridden garden

[The Helpful Gardener]

Back to lasagna ASAP, eh? So would I...

Now, I'm not Ruth Stout, but I can channel her now and then and she'd say that sounded like a lot of work and she liked gardening well enough, but really, just throw down the seeds or potatoes, or whatever, cover them with straw, and you were done. That was the large extent of her gardening prowess, that and pull a few weeds. Fukuoka-sensei has interrupted my link with Ruth to say she was wrong about pulling the weeds, and she just called him a... dang, lost them. Those two...

I'd like to throw a new name into the mix, one my friend and sometime poster Paul introduced me to, and this one is even still alive!

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw7mQZHfFVE&feature=player_embedded]Meet Sepp Holzer[/url]...

Shiny colored paper (pictures and printed ads usually) are best left out, but the funnies? They're fine...

HG