To Till Or Not To Till That Is The Question

[The Helpful Gardener]

More than one way to do things, Tom. Couldn't agree more.

HG

[gixxerific]

I'm not getting rid of my tiller, just rethinking it's purpose. I'm with you Tom I believe I will leave the majority of my garden go with some of it getting a light till. The parts getting a till (maybe) are the newer parts. As many of you know this garden at this house is very new, and a thousand times better than when I got here. But it has come in sections little by little, each time grabbing more land for the garden. Some of it has never been worked due to having a wood pile rack sitting there. But even that has been worked somewhat with all the wood debris falling down and turning to humus. That area should be fungal but it is still very solid (clay).

I'm no idiot, I still only know of one gardener personally that has ever had a better producing garden than me and this year might be the year to surpass them. Totally chemical free is my staple from now on though I was never crazy about them before, but for the tiller it won't get too much action.

Come on spring, which by the way is my birthday (the first day of spring that is). Maybe that's why I love it so much.

You can send me a pm for my address for where to the send the presents.

[garden5]

Ruth Stout uses hay, I've heard of using grass clippings for tomatoes, but what about leaves?

Now, I bet if you just deposited loose leaves around the garden, they would either blow away or compact too much with the rains and get moldy, but what if you mulched them up a bit, like with a weed whacker, lawn mower, or hedge clippers? After all, they seem to make a pretty good humus on the forest floor, so why not mulch the garden with them. Would the high carbon content be a problem?

[The Helpful Gardener]

Leaves are fungal side carbons; not sure I'd go there... hay brings sort of a mix of nitrogen and lignin; a slow breakdown green...

HG

[garden5]

Leaves are fungal side carbons; not sure I'd go there... hay brings sort of a mix of nitrogen and lignin; a slow breakdown green...

HG

Thanks, got it. It is still good to use leaf mold, though, isn't it? If I understand it correctly, leaf mold is strictly composted leaves. Is it very acidic?

[The Helpful Gardener]

Thinking like a chemist again...

The leaf mold is to add fungal inoculants...

HG

[garden5]

Thinking like a chemist again...

The leaf mold is to add fungal inoculants...

HG

Argh ......that's right! Acid and alkaline are just as chemistry as NPK, I forgot . Oh, well, I'm getting there HG . But wait a second, you just said

hay brings sort of a mix of nitrogen and lignin

. Isn't nitrogen part of that chemistry set we were supposed to throw away ? Also, what is lignin?

Now then, straight leaves = bad; composted leaf mold = good. Should one add the leaf mold sparingly so as not to add too much fungi?

Thanks for keeping me in the biology mindset .

[The Helpful Gardener]

pH balances itself in a natural system; nobody does it for the plants, they do it for themselves by selecting the biologies. You were insinuating YOU needed to do something. You do not.

I was talking about nitrogen, which plants do need to grow, no doubt, but I was talking about natural systems to provide that chemistry; in other words, biology. SO I was thinking like a biologist 9who does have to know something about chemistry, but not TOO much)

Don't split hairs with me G5... I'm a master at it...

HG

[garden5]

So, we can add all the organisms we want and the plants will just pick and choose what they need? That makes sense. Are you saying that if I got my soil tested, and they said that it was too one way or too the other, it would actually be just right for each plant in the plants root zone? I'll bet this happens due to what the plants exude from their roots so as attract the types of organisms that bring with them the right ph.

I didn't mean to get smart with you about the nitrogen, I know that you know way more about this stuff than I may ever know . But, I can at least try to learn as much as I can. It was just that you were the one who trained me to quit thinking in terms of NPK, so it was kind of funny to hear you mention it. In the end, I guess the NPK is like the key that starts the engine, but it is the microbes that put it in the ignition and roll it forward. This is just my impression of how they relate to NPK; I know that there are many more ways that microbes help the plants and soil.

Anyway, I knew I must have been missing something with your hay-post. Where does the nitrogen come from; microbes that decay the hay or from the hay itself?

I'll try to stay on subject so as not to turn this into another ACT thread .

[The Helpful Gardener]

I'm just joking, G5, so don't take my guff too personally...

Look, the trick here is not to do more it is to do less. Every time man interferes with the soil, he brings his ideas along with him. Some are good, but most of them over the years stink.

Everyone still talks about how we need pesticides and fertilizer to grow plants or feed the world, but they said that in the 50's when they were spraying DDT and Aldrin and all sorts of other junk. "We need to eradicate salt marsh mosquitoes", so they cut drainage ditches through the marshes and sprayed with wild abandon. We got dead fish and crustaceans for miles, osprey and eagles wiped out, and marshes that are still in recovery from the damage to their structure. The mosquitoes are still there...

They said we need to wipe out gypsy moths, so they started spraying entire cities from the air. Bird llife wiped out for miles; people calling to say there are twelve dead robins on my front lawn, people sickened and even dead. We still have gypsymoths.

So whenever somebody starts to tell us we need to do something in our garden, or when WE think we need to do something in our garden, our very first thought should be "How can Nature handle this?"

because when we do what we think needs to be done, it can take decades to repair it...

HG

[gixxerific]

Maybe Scott you could us what you "don't" do in your garden than we can try to "not" do the same thing. (does this make sense it does to me)

You do have a garden don't you? I never hear about it, just why what we are doing is wrong.

[garden5]

I had a feeling you joking, HG.

I like the way you put that. Ultimately, give nature more nature, in the form of organics and the microbes to feed on them, and you will have an awesome garden. What better way to give nature more nature than to mulch. I think that the decaying underlayer of mulch will help keep organisms around, too, which makes it a two fold benefit. After reading on this thread and thinking about my mulch experience last year (I mulched three rows of tomatoes with grass clippings) I think I may try mulching the entire garden this year...what to you think, HG? I will probably go with grass clippings, since I have easier access to those than I do hay. Does it sound good?

[rainbowgardener]

I'm not HG , but I agree, mulch everything, all the time. I mulch in the fall. In the spring I turn (not till!) that mulch under. Leave the soil bare just long enough for it to warm up thoroughly, get things planted and then mulch it all again. In mid summer if too much mulch has disappeared, I do it again. I use leaves, grass clippings, wood chips (home made from cleared brush), whatever I have.

[farmerlon]

Ruth Stout uses hay, I've heard of using grass clippings for tomatoes, but what about leaves?

Now, I bet if you just deposited loose leaves around the garden, they would either blow away or compact too much with the rains and get moldy, but what if you mulched them up a bit, like with a weed whacker, lawn mower, or hedge clippers? After all, they seem to make a pretty good humus on the forest floor, so why not mulch the garden with them. Would the high carbon content be a problem?

I recently attended a "class lecture" on Composting, and the speaker advised that he did not enjoy tending or turning a compost pile, and that he spread all of his leaves on the garden in the Fall, and then turned them into the soil in the spring.
He admitted that he had to cover the leaves with Chicken Wire to keep them from blowing away.
Everybody is free to garden however they want to ... but, for me, wrestling chicken wire all over my garden would be a lot harder work than a traditional compost pile.

Also, I am of the opinion that "sheet composting" Leaves on top of the garden is not really Composting. Typically, the leaves sit there all Winter, the top layer regularly dries out... and the leaves just don't seem to decompose all that much. From my observations, tilling the leaves into the soil in the Spring brings on much quicker decomposition than the months that they spent on top of the soil.

[gixxerific]

I'm with you RBG (except for my tilling which may change). I mulch all the time too with grass, leaves, whatever in the bed. I also wait until after planting or sprouts come up, until after you can see what you have than pile it on thick.

G5 I usually put on grass straight out of the bagger. Sometimes I would let it sit. I have heard lately that it might be better to let it sit and brown up a bit before adding the grass. Though I will probably do both again this year I will try to let it sit out a bit first for the most part.

[rainbowgardener]

Also, I am of the opinion that "sheet composting" Leaves on top of the garden is not really Composting. Typically, the leaves sit there all Winter, the top layer regularly dries out... and the leaves just don't seem to decompose all that much. From my observations, tilling the leaves into the soil in the Spring brings on much quicker decomposition than the months that they spent on top of the soil.

Very odd, a composting class where they discourage people from composting!

I agree that just spreading leaves on the gardening is MULCHING, but it isn't composting. I mulch my bed with fall leaves. By spring they are kind of weathered and then I crunch them up and turn them under. But they weren't composted. I do have leaves in my compost pile, mixed in with lots of greens and aerated and watered, composting!

[applestar]

I really want to jump in and say, "I mulch all the time too!" but I can't...

The trouble is, I'm trying to get some things to self-seed. I also scatter seedballs and bare seeds in the fall. My beds, when planted, are pretty closely packed, and it's tedious to try to mulch around them, and they pretty much crowd/shade out weeds for the most part.... I do mulch over strawberries in fall, and around brambles all through the season.... where else do I mulch...? Potatoes....

So I have heavily mulched areas and unmulched~lightly mulched areas where I expect last years seeds to grow. I think I can do better once I learn WHEN those seeds come out -- maybe then, I can mulch in fall but push the mulch back in time for them to grow.

Though come to think about it, no area is really BARE earth. When a crop is finished, I cut off at soil level (compost the top, though I'm wondering if I should leave it there as per Ms. Stout) and top the area with some compost. When I plant, I put some compost in and around the planting hole....

I AM planning an experimental strictly Ruth Stout bed for this year.

Another thing I'm going to try is to use some sand along with compost. Judging by the way my root veg's come out, I think my soil is missing the sand portion of the ideal loamy garden soil structure.

[gixxerific]

Apple if your beds grow strong and dense than the plants act as the mulch. Mulch in my opinion is to keep down weeds, mainly. If you are worried about the decomposition factor not being there for nutrients than that is another story.

[The Helpful Gardener]

AS, Fukuoka-san used seed balls and straw mulch...

What don't I do? Well I have done less and less to my soil over the years with increasingly better results. I haven't EVER owned a tiller and see no reason for one; I DO generally till the first time establishing a bed but will be attempting my first no-till this year based on my readings and the success of a few others I have spoken to. I NEVER add chemical fertilizers and only use pesticides (organic pesticides, mind you) when I see insects, never preventatively. I had been stepping away from pulling weeds for a while, preferring my action hoe, and now I have some back-up for that practice as well.

Mostly I have been trying to think how to do less and get the same or more back. It's laziness at the heart of it, pure indolence on my part. I think many of us like the toil and trouble of the garden, the battle with elements and Nature, the rewards of "hard work". It ain't me.

I like to spend as much time in my kayak as my garden, and want to find ways that allow my gardening time to bring me in line with Nature as much as my kayaking does. To that end I have been doing more of what I do in my kayak that brings me the most joy; passively observing Nature. That doesn't mean I passively observed the squash bugs eat my squash, or left my tomatoes and potatoes to their own devices to fend of the late blight, but I did very little hoeing last year, only when it got a touch rampant (or the DW did, because "company is coming!") I spent more time watching and less time working, and it worked out great.

I got more crops than ever before, I caught every disease and insect issue at an early stage (except for the voles chewing the roots out on the cukes and beans; if only I could observe below ground level). I spent more happy hours in the garden than hard labor, and while it didn't have quite the a**l retentive quality it has had in seasons past, the plants didn't seem to mind one bit. Actually seemed to like it (and some of the reading I have done of late supports that scientifically as well).

So while it is very human of us to want to tackle our chosen hobby like a middlelinebacker taking out a QB, diving in with full force and gusto and inserting ourselves into every process, I am saying that good things come to he who simply waits and watches. Many people are frightened away from gardening by the prospect of hours of drudgery and toil, and I am saying, "It ain't necessarily so." There are actually benefits to my "lazy" gardening, one of which is Nature gets to do her thing more, and that is good 90% of the time. Keep an eye on the 10% and let her do the rest. Nature likes it, and is good at it; she has been doing this a few billion years longer than us...

HG

[gixxerific]

Great post HG.

The more I learn what should be doing the more I realize it should just do what I did, with some little changes here and there. I totally agree with the lazy gardener thing. Even though all this seed starting has gotten me a bit batty. I am even beginning to let that go some what.

I do spend a LOT of time in my garden, but it is not fertilizing or weeding mainly just chillin' and taking in the beauty and wonder of my little paradise.


Plant it and it will grow if it doesn't try again. Dang, I love dirt, oops I'm sorry I meant soil.

[freedhardwoods]

I don't own a tiller.

I have never owned a tiller.

Reason
1. I have rocks... rocks would break a tiller.
2. I have tree roots... roots would break a tiller.
3. I don't have the money to buy one.

I take exception to 2 of the 3 above.

1. I can till up a rock driveway with no problem.

2. I have hit more roots and various other solid objects than I could ever remember, usually yanking the 200 lb tiller right out of my hand. It has a kill switch so I don't have to run after it. After hitting something I will dig it out so I won't hit it again.

3. My tiller did cost a lot when I bought it 17 years ago (about $1800), but it was well worth the money. I am on the second set of tines and it still does a fantastic job. It is very easy to use; I guide it with one hand while walking beside it.


I am not going to try to change anyone's thinking or method of gardening, but I am going to continue to garden as I have for many years. I use very large amounts of sawdust to give the soil lots of organic matter, I use synthetic fertilizer, and I till the soil many times per year.

I really don't understand why people say a tiller compacts the soil. The soil in my garden used to be almost like concrete before I bought my tiller and started adding sawdust. Now it is very loose and rich, and my crops grow really well if given halfway decent weather. I have about 6000 sq ft of garden, and my tiller makes it fairly easy to take care of.

[garden5]

Hmmm, I have a huge heap of leaves that has been sitting in a heap since fall, I think that I will spread them out over the garden once all the snow melts and "flip" them in, under the soil. I'm leery of mulching solely with whole leaves, since they seem to compact when wet. I'm kind of concerned that it would be detrimental to have something like that on your soil around your plants. It seems like a mulch should "breath," but this is just my thought, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

How do you feel about weeds, everyone? Do you let them grow rampant, someting I think should not be done, or do you just hit them with the hoe when they get to a few inches tall and let them lie. What do you do with your weeds, HG?

[Ozark Lady]

I suppose that as a kid I hit so many rocks, and roots with the lawnmower, that I assumed a tiller would be messed up also.

Since, I have never owned one, obviously I have no idea if they would or not... I did say... I have never owned one... never operated one... never gardened where one was ever used...

I did not post as an expert, but as an opinion and reason for not particularly wanting one.

[freedhardwoods]

I suppose that as a kid I hit so many rocks, and roots with the lawnmower, that I assumed a tiller would be messed up also.

Since, I have never owned one, obviously I have no idea if they would or not... I did say... I have never owned one... never operated one... never gardened where one was ever used...

I did not post as an expert, but as an opinion and reason for not particularly wanting one.

You are generally right in your original statement, I just wanted to brag on my tiller . Most tillers on the market wouldn't be able to take that kind of abuse. Even Troybilt is just a cheap throwaway brand since MTD bought the company and ruined it. I have a Troybilt made when they were guaranteed for life. Ask anyone that owns an original. They don't break.

[gixxerific]

I agree with hardwoods I tilled a "grass" section of lawn today for a new bed and "tilled" up quite a few BIG rocks while I was doing it. Nothing to it just stop pick out the rocks and keep going.

Don't be scared it will all be good in the end.

[cynthia_h]

How do you feel about weeds, everyone? Do you let them grow rampant, someting I think should not be done, or do you just hit them with the hoe when they get to a few inches tall and let them lie. What do you do with your weeds, HG?

Let's keep this thread on-topic re. tilling and its evident near-relatives, rocks and the downfall of Troybilt.

There is a mighty thread already in existence on weeds. I have been unregenerate in my treatment of them (as you'll see when/if you read completely through the 6-page thread). I know my enemies by name and I remove them--root, stem, and leaf.

There are others who ... well ... want to let the weeds live in their gardens. To which I say, good luck, especially if those gardeners have dogs + weeds that generate burrs, thorns, stickers, and the like. (Indigenous plants are *not* by definition weeds; I'm pretty sure each of my enemies is non-native. They're def. invasive, and a couple are also "noxious.")

The intense (but not hostile; never fear! ) discussion is at https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21366

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[garden5]

How do you feel about weeds, everyone? Do you let them grow rampant, someting I think should not be done, or do you just hit them with the hoe when they get to a few inches tall and let them lie. What do you do with your weeds, HG?

Let's keep this thread on-topic re. tilling and its evident near-relatives, rocks and the downfall of Troybilt.

There is a mighty thread already in existence on weeds. I have been unregenerate in my treatment of them (as you'll see when/if you read completely through the 6-page thread). I know my enemies by name and I remove them--root, stem, and leaf.

There are others who ... well ... want to let the weeds live in their gardens. To which I say, good luck, especially if those gardeners have dogs + weeds that generate burrs, thorns, stickers, and the like. (Indigenous plants are *not* by definition weeds; I'm pretty sure each of my enemies is non-native. They're def. invasive, and a couple are also "noxious.")

The intense (but not hostile; never fear! ) discussion is at https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21366

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

Sorry about that...I just got way ahead of myself . We can post about mulching, though, right? After all, this thread is about tilling or not tilling. One of the alternatives to tilling is cover-cropping and mulching.

I guess I just started thinking about all the weeds that the mulch suppresses and wanted to deviate to talk abut them . I'll try to read the thread title before I post .

[vermontkingdom]

Thanks for posting the links to Ruth Stout's videos. I just spent a very enjoyable 25 minutes watching them. What a remarkable person.

[Ozark Lady]

I thought about this thread today, as I planted a bed.

I took the leaf rake and got all the leaves off of it.

It even picked up alot of rocks and moved them right to my hands... ha ha

Then I switched to the garden rake, and raked across the bed... I was uprooting grass growing there from the mulch that I used in the goat bedding last year. It only took a few minutes.

Then I got my hand trowel to make rows... I had to laugh, they were crooked and only 4' long...

But, I had to dig deep enough to bury the onion bulbs up to the little tops... and I thought... hmm..

How deep is tilling?

Even in not tilling, you have to dig.. Is there a break off point?
Like over 6" deep is tilled?

Or is it the mechanized tilling that we are mostly dealing with?

I felt guilty... saying I don't till, and then digging to plant my onions!

But, I don't know how to grow onions above ground!

[The Helpful Gardener]

Ruth threw her stuff on top of the soil and covered with straw...

FHW, you are adding some humus so it looks light and fluffy now, but you pulverize your soil a little more everytime you till it. DO it every year and soon you will have dust for parent material and whatever humus you introduce. But you can't put the grains of minerals back together once you break them...

We have lost 40% of the soil in the US since colonization, mostly from tilling...

HG

[Ozark Lady]

I use alot of leaves.

I have heard that they aren't so good.

But, it is using what I have available. And the soil in forests is not without life, or breathing, or even all clumped down. Not really. Sure, after a rain the leaves are soggy and clumped... but after a rain, so is straw, and so is soil.

So, I will continue to use leaves, (gotta get rid of them somehow, other than landfills!) What I need to know is how best to amend the leaves so that they are giving me the best soil possible.

I love the get a leaf pile, and bunch of kids together... ha now that is my kind of gardening... let the kids do it! I have been thinking of... cloth bags, filled with leaves, and the kids use them as clubs to hit each other with, perhaps knock each other off a 2x4 on the ground, modern day jousting? And I get shredded leaves... And no leaves scattered to rake up again! Would it work?

[gixxerific]

Straw will never get as "clumpy" as leaves or grass. Leaves are not bad they just take along time to break down being so high in carbon. They also make a more fungal humus when broken down.

I redid my bed yesterday some of you will be happy to know I didn't till it.
I did rake it up a bit to break up the horse cookies and mix in that layer with the grass and leave layer. Than I added a bunch of compost than mixed it together a bit than added another layer of compost on top of that. Now for some tea making I save a pile of compost just for that.

[The Helpful Gardener]

OL leaves are just fine as long as you get lots of nitrogen in with the carbon (10:1 to 13:1 C/N). Manure is a fine way to do that, and between chickens and goats you should do just fine there. I might compost them together first, but you could sheet compost over the winter and be ready for spring anyway...

Gixx is right, straw won't clump; FUkuoka-san said you must be sure to throw it on "in disarray" and not in sheets so it lines up; additionall precaution against it compacting, but it is a fine idea and I will be buying bales this year to do my garden....

HG

[garden5]

I second that you should mix in some nitrogen-heavy material with your leaves, this will help them break down better. It would probalbly alos be good to break them up smaller so that they can decompose faster,

As for me, I don't plant on mulching with leaves this spring mainly because they have been sitting in a soggy heap all winter, so I can't mow them and make them smaller, and I don't think that they are an ideal stand-alone mulch. They seem to get too compacted with the rain. I could be wrong, but this looks like an invitation for some aerobic microbes and disease.

I think I will go with grass clippings all across the board, this year. I think that the first benefit the mulch will provide is allowing me to not weed so much. I really compacted my soil tight last year by regularly walking through it to do my weeding (but that's another thread). Hey, mulch may even protect you soil a little bit from compacting when you walk on it to prune, harvest, ect. .

OL, I don't think that there is a real "depth threshold" for what is and in't tilling. Some people use their tillers to till as shallowly as 1 in. to make a light, dust-like covering to plant seeds in.

[gixxerific]

I believe you mean anaerobic G5. Get them leaves turned a bit and add them with your grass. The grass will help the leaves break down and you will have some good soils because of it.

I checked out the area my wood rack was last year, I almost forgot how totally awful this soil is. Or should I say was, the rest of the garden is doing great.

"That time" is right around the corner for me. I simply can't wait. The weatherman said the other day that this coming week will be the first time in 90 something day's we won't be waking up to below freezing temps.

[Ozark Lady]

With acreage for the goats and chickens, I really don't get alot of manure in one place. Sure, their bed time areas, but nothing like what folks with penned up animals would get...
I thought of diapers... (joking)
Can you imagine, walking over about 2-3 acres of pasture with a trowel to scoop up goat berries?

I started on chicken tractors for tilling, and decided it needed it's own thread.