To till or not to till?

[garden5]

I have heard that when you till a garden, you disrupt the microbiological life that is going on under the soil. The best thing to do, I read, is to use a broad fork, and loosen the ground without mixing the soil levels. A broad fork looks like a garden rake, but with longer tines. You push the tines straight into the ground and rock them back and forth.

I, however, till mine with a shovel. I flip the soil over and then chop it up. I'm considering getting a tiller since my garden is getting too big to go at with a shovel.

Which do you think is better for the soil, a shove, rototiller, or something else (please specify)? How do you till your soil?

Thanks for your experienced advice.

[jal_ut]

I till.

If you put organic matter on the soil then till, you incorporate the organic matter into the soil. This organic matter is the food for the soil community of worms, insects, and microbes. You also loosen the soil and introduce oxygen into the soil. You also disrupt weeds and incorporate them into the soil as additional organic matter. This is sometimes called sheet composting, and as you know, it takes oxygen to make compost.

Too frequent tilling is not a good thing. I suggest deep tilling in the fall to incorporate organic mater into the soil. Then only very shallow tilling in the spring to make a seed bed or for cultivation and weeding. 1 or 2 inches deep at the most. Deep spring tilling also causes the loss of moisture from the soil. Here in Dry Utah, we must conserve that spring moisture.

Another note: that one inch deep tilling forms what is sometimes called a dust mulch. The layer of loose soil on top prevents the moisture from being wicked up to the surface and evaporating.

Have a great day!

[petalfuzz]

I am also in OH--and can say to till is better than no till. I have tried both ways in 2 years of gardening. Our Ohio clay soil needs to have lots of help so this is what I did that works for me:

early in spring, add lots of organic material. Till it with a garden fork (involves digging up a huge clump then repeatedly pounding on it to bits with the side of the fork)--maybe 6-10 inches deep at max. Let sit until planting time. I tried tilling in the fall, but the winter just packs it down tight again by spring time. In fall, I just cover with straw mulch or leaves then till that in again in spring as well.

After I did this, at planting time I couldn't believe that my clay soil could behave like it did. It was very small dirt bits and a nice dark color. Easy to plant in and the worms loved it. Plants did the healthiest with this method as well.

[gixxerific]

I have always tilled my garden twice a year. This year I didn't till in the fall. I have been layering (sheet mulching) the garden with manure, grass, leaves, compost etc. This spring I will more than likely till it lightly.

I myself am trying to get away from heavy tilling too much because as you said it disrupts the microbiology in the soil. I'm no expert but the soil has different levels of life in it when you till you mix it all up and it takes a while for it to regain a good foothold. It is more complicated than that but you get the idea.

The thing I don't understand is if tilling is so bad than turning the soil with a shovel or garden fork is doing the same thing just without a motor involved, am I right here or wrong.

Tilling also relases more carbon into the atmosphere.

[garden5]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

Jal-ut, you say that 1-2 in. is a shallow till, how deep, then, would you consider a deep tilling to be? If anyone else has any tilling tips, please give the depth you are tilling at (it doesn't have to be exact).

Petalfuzz, your garden fork method sounds like it's identincal to my shovel method: flip up a clump, and break it all up. Do you hit it with an electric tiller just before you plant, or is this the only spring tilling it gets?

Gixxerific, you know where I'm coming from with the soil layers, etc. and I see your point about shovel vs. tiller. If the shovel pulls a giant plug of soil up and then scrambles it, how could a tiller really be any worse?

I guess that is the heart of my question, is a motorized tiller or a shovel better for the health of my garden?

From what everyone is saying, it sounds like a tiller would be better since you have better control over the depth you are tilling. Also, it seems like a tiller would put compost, oxygen, and organic matter into the soil better than a shovel. I originally worried that it would disturb the soil biology too much, but I suppose that a shovel is just as bad, if not worse. If only till once or twice a year, like you all recommend, the soil biology should have plenty of time to recoup.

Another question I have is this: why so shallow in the spring? Won't this just cause the seedlings to easily take root, but then struggle to get down deeper as they become large plats? Then there's carrots, would you want to till a carrot or other root-crop row deeper than the rest of the garden?

Thank you all very much for your tilling information. This is an area that I really want to gain knowledge in.

[NaeMo]

We have to till twice in the spring if it is very wet (like last year). The clay soil just does NOT dry out. jal_ut is in Utah and apparently has drier soil than in the midwest. We till deeply the first time, as deep as our tiller will dig, then we let it dry out for a week or so, then go back and break up the bigger clumps. I hope this year to only till once. We've been amending the soil a little bit, and *eventually* believe we won't have as much clay to break up.

[applestar]

I don't till. I have been no-till gardening and sheet mulching -- techniques that, for me, are working out very well. I posted a bit about it in [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12259&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=till+agriculture&start=0]this thread[/url] Great contributions by other members as well. With another growing season behind me, I can tell you that this really works, and I've described how well my garden beds have improved several times in other threads.

FWIW and FYI -- I don't Double Dig, but when Double Digging, the correct way to do it is to fracture the bottom of the trench, then shift a shovel-ful WITHOUT DISTURBING THE LAYERS from the next row to the trench, not to turn the shovel-ful over and pound/break it apart.

[gixxerific]

The most important thing to do is to keep adding compost manure etc. That will feed your soil if you are not doing that than no form of soil break up will do you much good. In fact tilling will add more air to the soil which will speed up the breakdown process of the goodies in there. Which in turn means more fertile compost must be added to make up for losses.

I believe the shallow depth jal referred to is because his ground is in good condition, proper care has been taken, so a light till will be all that is need just to make the seeds grow a little easier with looser soil. Again this is because he has already added compost for some time and has healthy soil. With healthy soil tilling isn't needed as much because the organisms in the soil are doing it for you. Healthy soil also has our best friend the earthworm in abundance which you just can't touch the work they do with 100 tillers.

Now will I till again more than likely, will I do it as much as I have in past NO.

Good luck on this one it is a hard question to answer because everyone has a slightly different view as to what is best.

[jal_ut]

To answer a couple of questions.

What is a deep tilling? As deep as the tiller will go. Usually around 6 inches. I keep hearing people say they till a foot deep. I just have to grin.

There are good reasons for me not wanting to deep till in the spring. The first is the loss of moisture. Another is that my soil is clay based, and I don't want to work it when wet, which it always is early in the spring. If you work clay based soil when wet you get clods that won't break up for months.

Here the action of frost during winter always leaves the soil mellow in the spring. There is no benefit of spring tilling if the soil has been tilled good in the fall and lots of organic matter worked in.

gixxerific In fact tilling will add more air to the soil which will speed up the breakdown process of the goodies in there. Which in turn means more fertile compost must be added to make up for losses.

I don't agree with your reasoning. The reason for adding organic matter is three fold. It feeds the micro community. The humus that is left after the bacteria gets done improves the tilth of the soil. As the bacteria reduces the organic matter, plant food is released. This is what it is all about, feeding your plants so they will feed you.

Incorporating oxygen into the soil speeds up the decomposition of the organic matter. Which is just what I want to see, so my plants will have food come spring.

Reducing the organic matter to things useable by the plants is not a loss as you state, but a gain. Perhaps it is not really the organic matter in the soil that is of utmost importance, but what remains of it after the bacteria get done with it? Plant food and humus.

I won't buy the idea that tilling disrupts the micro-biology of the soil.
(An arguement that is always used by the no till advocates.)
Those little guys are everywhere. They are on everything. If you work some food for them into the soil, and some oxygen too you will dramatically increase their numbers. Its just like starting a compost heap. You give them some food and water, and turn it now and then to let in some oxygen and watch the little fellers go to work.

Here is another thought for you all to consider: The roots of many plants are extensive. We have little idea of how deep and far they go because we can't see them. However it might be said that there is as much organic matter in the roots as in the above ground plant. This abundance
of roots also adds tremendously to the organic matter in our soils. Do some research on the roots of plants and see what you find.

[vermontkingdom]

I've gardened a long time. For many years, I did my garden the "old fashioned way", I had to, I turned the soil with a shovel. About 25 years ago we got a Troy Built tiller and I used it in the fall to deep till the remnants of that year's garden and in the spring, to incorporate lots of compost and manure into the coming year's garden. After 39 years, I have a pretty good garden soil and have decided to try the no till method. There are positives and negatives in all things and, "To Till or Not To Till" is not the only question.

[garden5]

To answer a couple of questions.

What is a deep tilling? As deep as the tiller will go. Usually around 6 inches. I keep hearing people say they till a foot deep. I just have to grin.

There are good reasons for me not wanting to deep till in the spring. The first is the loss of moisture. Another is that my soil is clay based, and I don't want to work it when wet, which it always is early in the spring. If you work clay based soil when wet you get clods that won't break up for months.

Here the action of frost during winter always leaves the soil mellow in the spring. There is no benefit of spring tilling if the soil has been tilled good in the fall and lots of organic matter worked in.

gixxerific In fact tilling will add more air to the soil which will speed up the breakdown process of the goodies in there. Which in turn means more fertile compost must be added to make up for losses.

I don't agree with your reasoning. The reason for adding organic matter is three fold. It feeds the micro community. The humus that is left after the bacteria gets done improves the tilth of the soil. As the bacteria reduces the organic matter, plant food is released. This is what it is all about, feeding your plants so they will feed you.

Incorporating oxygen into the soil speeds up the decomposition of the organic matter. Which is just what I want to see, so my plants will have food come spring.

Reducing the organic matter to things useable by the plants is not a loss as you state, but a gain. Perhaps it is not really the organic matter in the soil that is of utmost importance, but what remains of it after the bacteria get done with it? Plant food and humus.

I won't buy the idea that tilling disrupts the micro-biology of the soil.
(An arguement that is always used by the no till advocates.)
Those little guys are everywhere. They are on everything. If you work some food for them into the soil, and some oxygen too you will dramatically increase their numbers. Its just like starting a compost heap. You give them some food and water, and turn it now and then to let in some oxygen and watch the little fellers go to work.

Here is another thought for you all to consider: The roots of many plants are extensive. We have little idea of how deep and far they go because we can't see them. However it might be said that there is as much organic matter in the roots as in the above ground plant. This abundance
of roots also adds tremendously to the organic matter in our soils. Do some research on the roots of plants and see what you find.

Thanks, jal_ut, for the great information.

I am curious as to why you reccommend not tilling any deeper than 6 in.. Is this maximum depth only for established gardens? Mine is very new and has hardly and organic matter in it right now (something I will be changing).

So, since my soil is mainly dirt, should I till deeper until I get more compost mixed in, or does your 6in. rule still stand? Maybe if I keep adding organic material and compost on top (first 5-7 in.) the soil beneath it will become loosened and better because of the increased microbiological life going on down there. Is this why you don't like to till super-deep?

Thanks for following this thread and sharing your knowledge.

[gixxerific]

gixxerific In fact tilling will add more air to the soil which will speed up the breakdown process of the goodies in there. Which in turn means more fertile compost must be added to make up for losses.

I don't agree with your reasoning. The reason for adding organic matter is three fold. It feeds the micro community. The humus that is left after the bacteria gets done improves the tilth of the soil. As the bacteria reduces the organic matter, plant food is released. This is what it is all about, feeding your plants so they will feed you.

Incorporating oxygen into the soil speeds up the decomposition of the organic matter. Which is just what I want to see, so my plants will have food come spring.

What I was trying to say is if you just till your ground every year without adding compost etc. is not good. We all know that the nutrients won't be there forever so they must be added by hand or by nature.



Gardern5If you have a new garden like I do I would be adding compost etc. a like it's going out of style and tilling in. That is what I have been doing. I have a new house with a new garden and have been giving it a good workout. The soil was terrible when I got here now it is much better. I really think that this year will be the year for me. The first year was not so great with last year being much better. I can see my soil is getting much more lose and full of nutrients, if you don't believe me ask the millions of earthworms in there that weren't there before.

But what do I know, I just can't seem to say the right thing here lately.

good luck

[garden5]

gixxerific In fact tilling will add more air to the soil which will speed up the breakdown process of the goodies in there. Which in turn means more fertile compost must be added to make up for losses.

I don't agree with your reasoning. The reason for adding organic matter is three fold. It feeds the micro community. The humus that is left after the bacteria gets done improves the tilth of the soil. As the bacteria reduces the organic matter, plant food is released. This is what it is all about, feeding your plants so they will feed you.

Incorporating oxygen into the soil speeds up the decomposition of the organic matter. Which is just what I want to see, so my plants will have food come spring.

What I was trying to say is if you just till your ground every year without adding compost etc. is not good. We all know that the nutrients won't be there forever so they must be added by hand or by nature.



Gardern5If you have a new garden like I do I would be adding compost etc. a like it's going out of style and tilling in. That is what I have been doing. I have a new house with a new garden and have been giving it a good workout. The soil was terrible when I got here now it is much better. I really think that this year will be the year for me. The first year was not so great with last year being much better. I can see my soil is getting much more lose and full of nutrients, if you don't believe me ask the millions of earthworms in there that weren't there before.

But what do I know, I just can't seem to say the right thing here lately.

good luck

Gixxerific, I definitely want to do just that. The one problem is my compost heap is new and mainly dirt. I just can't seem to get enough compost together to make a big difference.

Also, I don't know if I can till leaves directly into my garden or if I must wait for them to compost first, but that's a question for another thread (literally).

Thanks for the guidance, everyone.

[gixxerific]

Check around there might be somwhere you can get compost to buy. I'm lucky to have a city near by that is VERY proud of there recycling program and so am I. That is where I get my bulk comost from to add to my own compost. My place is super cheap compared to nurserys or whatnot here. Like 10$ a yard as compared to 30$ for the next cheapest. It's good quality though and has helped my garden considerably considering I don't have the greatest place yet to hold a compost pile of any great size.

Here is somwhere to start: https://www.ohiocompost.org/

[garden5]

Check around there might be somwhere you can get compost to buy. I'm lucky to have a city near by that is VERY proud of there recycling program and so am I. That is where I get my bulk comost from to add to my own compost. My place is super cheap compared to nurserys or whatnot here. Like 10$ a yard as compared to 30$ for the next cheapest. It's good quality though and has helped my garden considerably considering I don't have the greatest place yet to hold a compost pile of any great size.

Here is somwhere to start: https://www.ohiocompost.org/

Thanks a lot for that resource. In my area, they recycle yard waste to make mulch for yards. I don't think that this is the same as compost.

One reservation I have always had about buying compost is that I don't know for sure that there are no pesticides or other inorganic chemicals in the mix. I like to know where all my stuff is coming from.

I'm thinking on a compost tumbler to make things speed up. I want to hunt around and get some reviews before I make a purchase, though.

[jal_ut]

I am curious as to why you reccommend not tilling any deeper than 6 in.. Is this maximum depth only for established gardens?

My point is that 6 inches is about the maximum depth garden tillers will go. Even my big tiller mounted on a 55 Horse Power tractor only goes 6 inches deep. People who say they till a foot deep with a garden tiller are full of it!

I find 6 inches to be adequate. If you want to grow some very long rooted carrots, then it may be advisable to take a digging fork and loosen the soil to a greater depth. Personally I prefer to plant the shorter varieties of carrot. Even the short ones are enough work to dig.

[garden5]

I am curious as to why you reccommend not tilling any deeper than 6 in.. Is this maximum depth only for established gardens?

My point is that 6 inches is about the maximum depth garden tillers will go. Even my big tiller mounted on a 55 Horse Power tractor only goes 6 inches deep. People who say they till a foot deep with a garden tiller are full of it!

I find 6 inches to be adequate. If you want to grow some very long rooted carrots, then it may be advisable to take a digging fork and loosen the soil to a greater depth. Personally I prefer to plant the shorter varieties of carrot. Even the short ones are enough work to dig.

Ok, jal_ut, I now see what you meant. Sorry, I misunderstood your earlier post .

But, this does bring up something I have been wondering about. If you do not deep till (as many say not to), how will you get loose, rich soil?

I mean down deep. I know that you add compost, etc., but won't all this just stay in the top level of soil?

Does the compost eventually find it's way down to the lower soil levels and make them rich too, or is it normal for the soil to be hard once you get past, say, 8 or 10 in.?

I'm sorry if these questions are pretty dumb. I just want learn all I can about improving the soil and part of that is knowing what the soil should ideally be like.

You really know your stuff; thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[smokensqueal]

My step father tills his garden and I don't. In the fall I just cover mine with leaves and in the spring I pull the top layer off. I only work up where I'm putting my seeds or plants and leave the rest alone. I mulch with compost through out the year. I've found that my soil is just as loose after a few years of heavy compost additions and leaves in the fall as my step fathers after he tills. It saves me from having to own a tiller. But depending on your soil you may have to till until you get your organic matter built up in your soil.

[jal_ut]

garden5: Ok, jal_ut, I now see what you meant. Sorry, I misunderstood your earlier post .

But, this does bring up something I have been wondering about. If you do not deep till (as many say not to), how will you get loose, rich soil?

I mean down deep. I know that you add compost, etc., but won't all this just stay in the top level of soil?

Does the compost eventually find it's way down to the lower soil levels and make them rich too, or is it normal for the soil to be hard once you get past, say, 8 or 10 in.?

All good questions. How hard your soil is below the tilliing depth depends on the soil type and the condition of the soil. On a plot where there has been plenty of organic matter applied there will be worms active and they go deeper with their burrows. This makes the soil easier for roots to penetrate.

I think we often underestimate the power of roots to penetrate soils. Many of our garden plants send roots to the four foot deep level. When the plant dies in the fall, these roots will decompose leaving their remains for future plants to absorb, and incorporating organic matter and humus into those lower levels.

What it boils down to is that if you put plenty of organic matter on your soil, it will become rich and fertile and mellow. Even the no-till acvocates will agree. The microbes and the worms work the material into the soil.

https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137ch26.html

https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137ch32.html

Check out these two links on root development. I think that the roots of plants have as much organic material in them as the above ground plant. So it can be said that the roots themselves add lots of organic material to our soils and at much deeper depths than we would ever till.

[jal_ut]

https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137ch34.html

There are a number of other plants addressed on this site. You have to check this one out about lettuce roots. They are amazing.

Now perhaps you can begin to see how the lower levels of our soil improve too?

https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137toc.html
Here is the home page.

[garden5]

Thanks a lot jal_ut, for all these great resources! I have a lot of reading to do:D!

You've cleared up a lot for me regarding soil development. I kind of thought that the increased worms and microbes brought into the soil from the compost would both break up the lower soil levels and bring the fertile soil from up top down in.

I agree with you that plant's roots are stronger than what we believe. I think that because we always hear so many people (especially those selling tilling/cultivation products) constantly talking about loose soil and its benefits, that we begin thinking that it is an absolute necessity for plant to grow. While it really helps, they will be able without it (within reason, of course).

However, I'm thinking that for really new soil like mine, a tiller would allow me to work in compost and organic materials more effectively than just a shovel.

Thanks for your information.