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Gary350
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- Location: TN. 50 years of gardening experience.
What is an heirloom vegetable?
There are heirloom tomatoes, heirloom squash, heirloom beans, heirloom corn, heirloom okra, heirloom peas, heirloom carrots, heirloom melons, heirloom onions, heirloom everything. So what is the deal?
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Sybil_Vimes(4a)
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- Location: Saint Paul, MN (Zone 4a)
The term 'heirloom' when applied to plants, has (as far as I'm aware) the same meaning as it does when you speak of antiques or your grandmother's jewelry -- that it's been handed down from generation to generation.
In the case of vegetables, not only has the original seed been preserved (in a very few cases, from the 1700's and earlier! Not the actual seed, of course, but the specific type of seed) but also kept pure, and handed down in the pure form from gardener to gardener.
Put simply, an heirloom is not a hybrid, which are new varieties specifically altered and genetically tinkered with to produce specific traits, like standing up under the pressure of shipping, or ripening way earlier than is typical.
I may be a new gardener, but I am a food historian of some experience, and heirlooms are right up my alley.
Heirlooms are important to us now because they have not been chemically enhanced, genetically altered, or tampered with in any way. They are a vital part of preserving the world's food chain, and essential to preserving variety.
Why are they so vital? Simple. Heirlooms can reproduce. Hybrids can't. Some hybrids can breed (for lack of a better term) but they won't breed true, and the offspring might not be edible or may not be able to produce another generation. Heirlooms breed true to themselves every time and they don't fire blanks -- another reason they're so important to preserving the world's food supply.
Some people say that heirlooms taste better and have better nutrient content, too. Certainly that's true with tomatoes -- tomatoes in a grocery store have been studied and have been found to have much less food value (like vitamins and so on) than heirloom, on-the-vine tomatoes. I have yet to try this theory myself, being a new gardener, I went with the hybrids this year because they are easier to grow, supposedly, bred for disease resistance and so on. Next season, however, I'll be adding heirlooms to my garden.
That help?
Sybil V.
In the case of vegetables, not only has the original seed been preserved (in a very few cases, from the 1700's and earlier! Not the actual seed, of course, but the specific type of seed) but also kept pure, and handed down in the pure form from gardener to gardener.
Put simply, an heirloom is not a hybrid, which are new varieties specifically altered and genetically tinkered with to produce specific traits, like standing up under the pressure of shipping, or ripening way earlier than is typical.
I may be a new gardener, but I am a food historian of some experience, and heirlooms are right up my alley.
Heirlooms are important to us now because they have not been chemically enhanced, genetically altered, or tampered with in any way. They are a vital part of preserving the world's food chain, and essential to preserving variety.
Why are they so vital? Simple. Heirlooms can reproduce. Hybrids can't. Some hybrids can breed (for lack of a better term) but they won't breed true, and the offspring might not be edible or may not be able to produce another generation. Heirlooms breed true to themselves every time and they don't fire blanks -- another reason they're so important to preserving the world's food supply.
Some people say that heirlooms taste better and have better nutrient content, too. Certainly that's true with tomatoes -- tomatoes in a grocery store have been studied and have been found to have much less food value (like vitamins and so on) than heirloom, on-the-vine tomatoes. I have yet to try this theory myself, being a new gardener, I went with the hybrids this year because they are easier to grow, supposedly, bred for disease resistance and so on. Next season, however, I'll be adding heirlooms to my garden.
That help?
Sybil V.
Wonderful, well-written response, Sybil-Vimes. Thank you.
For others who might wonder, "open-pollinated" often is used as a parallel phrase to "heirloom variety." Technically, they aren't the same, but for the purposes of most of us (and definitely for me personally) they're pretty close.
Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9
For others who might wonder, "open-pollinated" often is used as a parallel phrase to "heirloom variety." Technically, they aren't the same, but for the purposes of most of us (and definitely for me personally) they're pretty close.
Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9
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Sybil_Vimes(4a)
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- Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 1:28 am
- Location: Saint Paul, MN (Zone 4a)
You're welcome 
I had to learn about heirloom plants (and animal species, too) for an article I was getting paid to write, a while back, and the information was fascinating. I don't think I agree with some of the more 'out there' stuff surrounding heirlooms (the conspiracy theories talking about how the New World Order wants to get rid of heirloom varieties altogether so that they can control us through the chemicals in the hybrids is a classic example), but heirlooms are very important to life!
Before I did all that research, I used to think that the term 'heirloom' was just a marketing ploy or some kind of foodie snobbery that didn't really mean anything. Now, I know better
Sybil V.
I had to learn about heirloom plants (and animal species, too) for an article I was getting paid to write, a while back, and the information was fascinating. I don't think I agree with some of the more 'out there' stuff surrounding heirlooms (the conspiracy theories talking about how the New World Order wants to get rid of heirloom varieties altogether so that they can control us through the chemicals in the hybrids is a classic example), but heirlooms are very important to life! Before I did all that research, I used to think that the term 'heirloom' was just a marketing ploy or some kind of foodie snobbery that didn't really mean anything. Now, I know better
Sybil V.
A little bit of clarifaction here. When talking about hybrid vegetables we mean crossing two strains/varieties of the same species, which if talking about people would be the same as having two different individuals as parent, so from an horticultural standpoint you and I are hybrids. Strains/varieties of vegetables have been stabilized (homozygous genes)so that they are basically genetic clones of each other, so if you cross a Roma tomato plant with another Roma tomato plant you will get another Roma tomato plant, but if you cross a Roma with a Brandywine you will get a combination of traits. This first generation offspring will be the same, so if you crossed roma x brandywine 100 times all of the offspring would be the same. This is what you are getting in your hybrid tomato seed such as "Better Boy". But if you plant seeds from a Better Boy you will start to see genetic segregation and the offspring will be more or less variable in size, taste, shape production etc. The variability is why you don't generally want to plant seed from hybrids if you expect to get the same thing you grew the year before. This type of hybid reproduces itself without any problem because it is still a tomato. Only that first generation coming from two differnt parents (F1) is consedered a horticultural hybrid. Once it self pollinates the next generation is then an unstable open pollinated variety, not a hybrid.
What is confusing is when speaking from a biological rather than an horticultural standpoint. Biological hybrids are crosses between two differnt species (a tomato x pepper (doesn't work BTW), or a horse x donkey (= mule) for example) in the rare cese where an offspring is produced it is usually sterile because its chromosome number is incompatible with other species or because the chromosomes can't separate during cell division leading to the formation of sperm and eggs. This is more the case with animals than plants. Alot of interspecies plant hybrids reproduce just fine (But alot don't). Most commercial orchids are an example of successful hybrids as they are a mix of many species. and in this case, because they originated from two different species they and all the generations that follow are considered hybrids.
The term 'heirloom', as it applies to vegetables is a sore spot for many people. Purists feel that the variety must be at lest 40-50 years old. But seed venders call anything that is open pollinated (not hybrid) to be at least a potential heirloom (because you can save seed and get the same thing in the next generation). The term 'Heritage', is sometimes used to describe those varieties developed by a family long ago, something with a history. If you go looking to buy heirloom tomatoes you will notice alot of Heirloom Russian varieties on the market. Do not think for a second that these were passed down through the generations by Russian peasants because personal gardens were outlawed during communism and people had to grow seeds provided by the state to feed the state, so nearly all of those Russian heirlooms are soviet commercial varieties developed by the state. They are open polinated, and many may be more than 40 years old, but they certainly do not have a romantic peasant history.
Are all 'heirloom' vegetables better tasting and less roductive than hybrids? No, only a select few heirloom varieties taste as good or better than the best tasting hybrids, and many heirlooms are even more productive than hybrids. Hybrids are however, more consistent year to year, and because they have been bred for commercial qualities (shipping, storage life, beauty, and flavor accepability to a wide audience) they are all pretty much the same compared to the variety you find in heirlooms. When was the last time you saw a pepper shaped green and yellow striped tomato at the grocery store?
Disease resistance bred into hybrids is more important to farmers fighting off soil diseases than home gardeners. With tomatoes, home gardeners deal mainly with a different set of diseases (foliage fungal diseases) than the things hybrids can fight off. The hybrids are just as susceptible to the foliage diseases for the most part. If you have soil based problems such as nematodes, and wilts (fusarium, verticilium etc.) then you may need to grow hybrids resistant to them, but you have to pick your hybrid to your problem. There is a great deal of variability in disease resistance in heirlooms. In my patch of 24 varieties of heirloom tomatoes, two varities have been hit hard by leaf problems, three have some damage, and the rest are ignoring diseases.
What is confusing is when speaking from a biological rather than an horticultural standpoint. Biological hybrids are crosses between two differnt species (a tomato x pepper (doesn't work BTW), or a horse x donkey (= mule) for example) in the rare cese where an offspring is produced it is usually sterile because its chromosome number is incompatible with other species or because the chromosomes can't separate during cell division leading to the formation of sperm and eggs. This is more the case with animals than plants. Alot of interspecies plant hybrids reproduce just fine (But alot don't). Most commercial orchids are an example of successful hybrids as they are a mix of many species. and in this case, because they originated from two different species they and all the generations that follow are considered hybrids.
The term 'heirloom', as it applies to vegetables is a sore spot for many people. Purists feel that the variety must be at lest 40-50 years old. But seed venders call anything that is open pollinated (not hybrid) to be at least a potential heirloom (because you can save seed and get the same thing in the next generation). The term 'Heritage', is sometimes used to describe those varieties developed by a family long ago, something with a history. If you go looking to buy heirloom tomatoes you will notice alot of Heirloom Russian varieties on the market. Do not think for a second that these were passed down through the generations by Russian peasants because personal gardens were outlawed during communism and people had to grow seeds provided by the state to feed the state, so nearly all of those Russian heirlooms are soviet commercial varieties developed by the state. They are open polinated, and many may be more than 40 years old, but they certainly do not have a romantic peasant history.
Are all 'heirloom' vegetables better tasting and less roductive than hybrids? No, only a select few heirloom varieties taste as good or better than the best tasting hybrids, and many heirlooms are even more productive than hybrids. Hybrids are however, more consistent year to year, and because they have been bred for commercial qualities (shipping, storage life, beauty, and flavor accepability to a wide audience) they are all pretty much the same compared to the variety you find in heirlooms. When was the last time you saw a pepper shaped green and yellow striped tomato at the grocery store?
Disease resistance bred into hybrids is more important to farmers fighting off soil diseases than home gardeners. With tomatoes, home gardeners deal mainly with a different set of diseases (foliage fungal diseases) than the things hybrids can fight off. The hybrids are just as susceptible to the foliage diseases for the most part. If you have soil based problems such as nematodes, and wilts (fusarium, verticilium etc.) then you may need to grow hybrids resistant to them, but you have to pick your hybrid to your problem. There is a great deal of variability in disease resistance in heirlooms. In my patch of 24 varieties of heirloom tomatoes, two varities have been hit hard by leaf problems, three have some damage, and the rest are ignoring diseases.
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Charlie MV
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- Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 11:48 pm
Thanks to all for the info on heirlooms. I asked a question about Brandywines inthe tomato forum and didn't get much. The consensus there was that the heirlooms would produce 3 or 4 fruit and be done. I had that experience for my first gardening year. This year, several plants bore 5 or 6 fruit and one plant so far has made 25 or 30.
As to taste, nobody in my family seems to think the taste is that much better if any. Our experience with the brandywines is that we can't justify the space to grow such an unpredictable plant anymore. We plant about 8 different types of hybrids totaling 25 plants and get well over 100 fruit per plant. With the cherry and tumblin tom, we get up in the 5 or 6 hundreds per plant.
Another thing we didn't care for with brandywines is that while they get huge, much less of it is edible in that we have to cut out a large core.
We are able to plant hybrids that are resistant to various difficult conditions in our garden situation, nenatodes specifically. I will never understand how heirloom varieties command such prices in the store. While their flavor may be superior to store bought hybrids they may or may not be even as good as our organically grown hybrids.
As to taste, nobody in my family seems to think the taste is that much better if any. Our experience with the brandywines is that we can't justify the space to grow such an unpredictable plant anymore. We plant about 8 different types of hybrids totaling 25 plants and get well over 100 fruit per plant. With the cherry and tumblin tom, we get up in the 5 or 6 hundreds per plant.
Another thing we didn't care for with brandywines is that while they get huge, much less of it is edible in that we have to cut out a large core.
We are able to plant hybrids that are resistant to various difficult conditions in our garden situation, nenatodes specifically. I will never understand how heirloom varieties command such prices in the store. While their flavor may be superior to store bought hybrids they may or may not be even as good as our organically grown hybrids.
I don't think brandywines are that good in the taste department either. don't write all heirloom tomatoes off based on one, however. Many have explosive fllavor. I prefer heirloom tomatoes because they are very easy to start, if you want to start your own. I save some of my seed and purchase some, and find it very cost efficient. I also like the idea that I CAN save my seed and reduce the cost even further.
The whole heirloom label had gained a mystique that isnt warranted. It is just the old fashioned varieties, and manner of gardening that fell out of favor at some point in pursuit of the equally unwarranted mystique that hybrid varieties gained at some point. They all have their advantages and disadvantages.
Just have fun and find what works best for you and your garden....and enjoy!
The whole heirloom label had gained a mystique that isnt warranted. It is just the old fashioned varieties, and manner of gardening that fell out of favor at some point in pursuit of the equally unwarranted mystique that hybrid varieties gained at some point. They all have their advantages and disadvantages.
Just have fun and find what works best for you and your garden....and enjoy!
Unfortunately, Brandywine is the public face of heirloom tomatoes, becasue it is in fact an anomaly, different from almost all other heirloom tomatoes. It doesn't grow/produce well for many people, there are many varieties of Brandywine so the flavor quality varies, and even on the best strains, the flavor may or may not be there year to year or fruit to fruit. Brandywine is special because the flavor is slightly different from other tomatoes and when it is good it makes your eyes pop open and you immediately know that it is one of the best tomatoes you have ever tasted.
Most of the best heirloom varieties are like Cherokee Purple, consistent fairly high yields year to year with a superb tomato taste that is more complex than hybrids. It won't make your eyes pop open with the first bite, but by the end of the season you find yourself reaching for the Cherokee Purple rather than the Better Boy and telling yourself that you are always going to grow it no matter what (until nematoes etc make it impossible to grow anything in your garden that hasn't been bred to fight off the problem). Luckily for many of us those problems are confined to certain parts of the country. Actually, a large percentage of heirlooms were very productive and flavorful commercial varieties at one time, slowly displaced by hybrids having a slightly higher profit margin.
Variety is the other reason to grow Heirlooms. You will not find any hybrid that come close to Green Giant or Cherokee Green,... green when ripe varieties that make heirloom snobs say "Dang that's good!". You won't find them because creating the hybrid seed would be unprofitable because too many people are turned off by anything that is not the flavor, color and shape of store bought red tomatoes. Hybrids are designed for small to large scale farmers selling to the public, not adventurous home gardeners. I always laugh when my neighbors won't take free tomatoes that have won Best of Show at tomato festivals because the fruits are not round and red.
Most of the best heirloom varieties are like Cherokee Purple, consistent fairly high yields year to year with a superb tomato taste that is more complex than hybrids. It won't make your eyes pop open with the first bite, but by the end of the season you find yourself reaching for the Cherokee Purple rather than the Better Boy and telling yourself that you are always going to grow it no matter what (until nematoes etc make it impossible to grow anything in your garden that hasn't been bred to fight off the problem). Luckily for many of us those problems are confined to certain parts of the country. Actually, a large percentage of heirlooms were very productive and flavorful commercial varieties at one time, slowly displaced by hybrids having a slightly higher profit margin.
Variety is the other reason to grow Heirlooms. You will not find any hybrid that come close to Green Giant or Cherokee Green,... green when ripe varieties that make heirloom snobs say "Dang that's good!". You won't find them because creating the hybrid seed would be unprofitable because too many people are turned off by anything that is not the flavor, color and shape of store bought red tomatoes. Hybrids are designed for small to large scale farmers selling to the public, not adventurous home gardeners. I always laugh when my neighbors won't take free tomatoes that have won Best of Show at tomato festivals because the fruits are not round and red.
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Charlie MV
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The last thing in the world I am is an adventurous home gardener. I grow enough for my family of 3 to eat year round. I am very serious about my eating. I enjoy the organic aspect of gardening but if I'm ever faced with losing a major crop, I'll consider the nuclear options. 
Losing a years food is serious. Eventually, I may experiment as I gain experience. But I have to be fairly sure a plant will yield a very large quantity of fruit before I plant it. We've tried other heirlooms but our nematodes must be particularly vicious. I plan to try the beneficial nematodes next season but I remembered too late for this season.We're trying to come up with a method of freezing okra for future frying with minimal battering. We fry fresh okra with no breading, mealing or batter of any kind. If we solve this adventure, I'll post the results here. So far we've had two trial runs that came out well. I have a batch in the freezer that I want to try in a month before I declare success. Wouldn't fried Christmas okra be a wonderful addition to the holidays?