About Carbaryl (Sevin) insecticide.

[jal_ut]

The insecticide Sevin is used quite a bit in this world.
I know Sevin is a dirty word to organic gardeners and they won't use it.
Here is a link to information about Carbaryl, the active ingredient in Sevin: [url=https://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/carbgen.pdf]Click Here[/url]

I think we owe it to ourselves to learn about these products and decide for ourselves if they can be used in our gardens.

[cynthia_h]

Given the prevalence of Colony Collapse Disorder, I can hardly support the use of this product. Even the .pdf contains this language:

"Terrestrial Invertebrates
‣ Carbaryl is highly toxic to honey bees, with a topical LD50 of 1 μg/bee (1, 2)."

The (1,2) refer to sources cited at the end of the .pdf. Honeybees are the only pollinator which seem to have been tested; other species were cats, pigs, dogs, people. (I was reading for key words, like bees or pollinators; this is not a complete list of tested species.)

One microgram per bee...there are 456 grams in 1 pound. Approx. 28.6 grams to the ounce.

There are 1,000 x 1,000 micrograms to the gram, or 1,000,000 µg/g. Imagine how such a minute amount of carbaryl can kill a whole hive of bees, assuming an exposed bee makes it "home."

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[The Helpful Gardener]

Carbaryls have been [url=https://www.inchem.org/documents/jmpr/jmpmono/v069pr06.htm]a known problem since 1969[/url], and have a [url=https://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/summary.tcl?edf_substance_id=63%2d25%2d2#hazards]number of other issues[/url], but EPA foot dragging has it relegated to "possible" status for everything, so it continues on the marketplace...

In an interesting coincidence, NPIC relies almost entirely on EPA for it's funding (who relies almost entirely on the chemical industry to fund it's limited oversight testing). Who's biting the hand that feeds them? Nobody...

[url=https://www.pesticideinfo.org/]The PAN Database[/url] actually lists who funds it (Look Ma, no digging for the truth) and is not beholden to the chemical industry for anything, so they actually tell you [url=https://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC32816]what the data says about carbaryl[/url]. Same reports that NPIC was referencing, with the actual meanings laid out. This stuff has been a known carcinogen, mutagen, tetragen, and [url=https://www.pesticideinfo.org/Docs/ref_toxicity6.html#CholinesteraseInhibitors]cholinestrase inhibitor[/url], and a possible [url=https://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/qendoc.asp]endocrine disruptor[/url]yet foot dragging by EPA allows for its use still today. Bayer is one of the [url=https://www.pesticideinfo.org/]worst offenders[/url] in producing and defending chemicals like this one, and EPA has been a staunch ally in [url=https://www.sustainablefarmer.com/bblog/?p=52]stopping access to company/EPA data[/url]on another Bayer product, imidicloprid, despite evidence of it's possible inclusion as a factor for the CCD that Cynthia mentioned. [url=https://www.epa.gov/hpv/pubs/summaries/14chld3p/c15000pm.pdf]Here is a clear case[/url] where they were doing the testing for one of their chemical products, getting a confidential status based on THEIR data, and no one else can see it (not to mention they could have done the testing with only half the animal mortalities ) And if you thought THAT was evil, here's where Bayer submitted [url=https://www.cbgnetwork.org/401.html]pesticide testing done in concentration camps...[/url] [url=https://www.epa.gov/reg3wcmd/ca/wv/pdf/wvd056866312.pdf]Know who we're dealing with here...[/url] Yet EPA allows this company to do it's own testing? And how has this chemical been allowed to be used for decades? I think the evidence speaks for itself. We cannot rely on our government for chemical safety...

jal_ut is indeed correct, we should look at the data before we make up our mind. But we must look at ALL the data, and REALLY look at it good, because we can say a lot or nothing about the very same chemical within a data set. It needs cogent interpretation to be valuable... which is why I like PAN...

HG

[rootsy]

Given the prevalence of Colony Collapse Disorder, I can hardly support the use of this product. Even the .pdf contains this language:

"Terrestrial Invertebrates
‣ Carbaryl is highly toxic to honey bees, with a topical LD50 of 1 μg/bee (1, 2)."

The (1,2) refer to sources cited at the end of the .pdf. Honeybees are the only pollinator which seem to have been tested; other species were cats, pigs, dogs, people. (I was reading for key words, like bees or pollinators; this is not a complete list of tested species.)

One microgram per bee...there are 456 grams in 1 pound. Approx. 28.6 grams to the ounce.

There are 1,000 x 1,000 micrograms to the gram, or 1,000,000 µg/g. Imagine how such a minute amount of carbaryl can kill a whole hive of bees, assuming an exposed bee makes it "home."

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

Carbaryl in the garden, on flowers, etc is a big no-no in my book. Use it in the basement of the old farmhouse for powder post beatle and ant control... bout it.

Need all of the honey bees I can get...

[The Helpful Gardener]

No concerns about your health rootsy? No kids or pets, I hope. Smaller BMI's make the smaller creatures even more susceptible...

HG

[rootsy]

in the very limited amount of use I am not overly concerned. I dust areas of active beetle boring once a year or so... spread a limited amount along perimeters. If I was coming into direct contact with it or breathing it in every day due to a continuously disrupted area making it airborne I would think twice.

No kids...

No animals in the basement. Actually the only time anyone goes down there is to fill the water softener bout once a month... Place dates to the 1850's and half of the home has oak and elm logs for floor joists... Newest part is all rough sawn red oak...

[Haesuse]

compared to other insecticides, carbaryl is very timid and meek. I have never used it on or around any plants, however.

I'm not saying it doesn't kill stuff. I'm not saying it's good for bees. I'm not saying drink a glass of it dissolved in water.

I'm just saying, that if you have a house that is so flea infested that 10 visits from pest control people, and countless hours over countless weeks spent in the house cleaning, do nothing to stem the tide of bugs, then sevin-dust might be perfect for you.


lets say you have a choice between:

a) sevin-dusting the entire house to about 1/8" deep, and leaving it for 2 weeks
b) spending thousands of dollars on pest-flea-control professionals who make no headway whatsoever
c) spending countless hours of your life in the house spraying actual chemicals and poisons, that make no headway
d) burning the house down to the foundation and building a new one


sevindust isn't so bad, then. I was in just this situation last year. so many fleas in the house that within 5 seconds of being within 20 feet of it, you had 100+ fleas on you. within 5 seconds of being INSIDE, you had hundreds and hundreds of them on you. we spent 2 full months of full-time work, trying to rid the house of fleas. name a chemical. we tried it by the gallon. nothing worked. they just kept coming back. after 2 weeks of the house being saturated with sevin-dust, though, they were ALL dead.


and say what you want about children and pets and whatnot, but horse groomers have been using sevindust literally ON their horses for decades now, with no downsides. and, in people, it literally is out of your system the very next time you pee.

I hate the saying "lesser of X evils", but this is a perfect case of it. do you want to spray chemicals that don't even fully work, and that will give you hives, make you pass out, make you dizzy, coughing, sneezing, throwing up (we did all of these things), or use sevin-dust, which does none of these things?

I'll take sevin any day.

[webmaster]

Haesuse,
Thanks for your input that balances out opinions about sevin. It shows there are two sides to pretty much every discussion and that on this forum at least we can discuss all sides of an issue without turning it into debate. Good.

Ultimately it is up to the members individually to come to their own decision. We can't decide for you by coming to a consensus about it. However we can discuss the positive and negatives of it.

[The Helpful Gardener]

But folks, one of the key points I was trying to make is that if the EPA won't proclaim this stuff safe (after 40 years it's still "under review" ), then how can anyone else declare it safe?? I can't, and I've done homework, lots of it...

I am achieving good IPM standards using organic and biological products, ones likely not to present issues to any organisms, including this one, other than the targets. I am a firm believer in the teachings of Dr. Aldo Leopold, who said,[quote] "A thing is right when it preserves the stability, integrity and beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise.â€

[Rozsmom]

I realize this is an ancient thread, but I found it while Googling "Sevin". I have a question for you gardeners. My mother, who has been gone for 20 years now, used Sevin on her vegetable garden. This was before the internet, so I don't think she interacted with anyone about this. Not too long after dusting her crops, my mother ate some radishes. It was not the same day, but maybe a couple days later. Soon after, she was driving and she started hallucinating. She described a "line of thinking" that was in addition to her "normal" thoughts. It was colorful and three dimentional, like you might imagine an LSD trip to be. She became disoriented and didn't know where she was. She had to pull over. She could not control the hallucinations, which were flooding her mind.

I think it was about 10 months later my mother found lumps in a lymph node pattern, and was later diagnosed with lymphoma. After treatment and two remissions, the lymphoma returned with a revenge and she passed away. During the time she had left after her "bad trip", my mother became an organic gardener.

My question is ... could this have been caused by ingesting Sevin? I know she used other chemicals, but for some reason, she was convinced that the hallucinations, and her cancer, were a result of Carbaryl poisoning. As I mentioned, this was before the internet, so she could not Google for any answers.

What a great age we live in ~ for technology ~ not for chemicals!

[Rozsmom]

Now that I have read the the info at the link that jal_ut posted, I see that what happened to my mother was probably not caused by Sevin. It would be more likely to have been caused by CARBON DISULFIDE or something similar.

[vermontkingdom]

It's spring time and full season for advertising all kinds of wonderful pesticides (fungicides, insecticides, herbicides, etc.). Unfortunately, I am the only one who has a vegetable garden in my neighborhood so few consider what dangers to food and environment, both local and extended, all these pesticides may be doing. Soon, many neighbors will be out spraying, spreading and sprinkling every known "-cide" to make sure no fungus, bug or weed complicates their lives. As a retired biology teacher, taught almost 40 years, it's more than a bit depressing.

[soil]

I'm just saying, that if you have a house that is so flea infested that 10 visits from pest control people, and countless hours over countless weeks spent in the house cleaning, do nothing to stem the tide of bugs, then sevin-dust might be perfect for you.


lets say you have a choice between:

a) sevin-dusting the entire house to about 1/8" deep, and leaving it for 2 weeks
b) spending thousands of dollars on pest-flea-control professionals who make no headway whatsoever
c) spending countless hours of your life in the house spraying actual chemicals and poisons, that make no headway
d) burning the house down to the foundation and building a new one

e) use 20$ of food grade diatomatious earth and still live happily in your house while the fleas die.

[Tonio]

+10,000

We have many... ok 7 cats. Previously used Precor, this and that through out the years. We tried to keep any serious insecticides out of the house.

Its a cycle, so treatment needs to be done at the proper stages of the bugger. You need to treat the cats, bedding and room, and outside. Outside use nematodes. You can even use some DE lightly on the cats , but not too heavy or too long.

We had DE on the floors. cat bedding(and our lungs) for about 2 weeks last summer, and no worries-they are gone!! 2 weeks due to being in the in between stage of larva and adults, and to be sure of any lingering eggs.

In regards to sevin, I am suprised that UC Davis -IPM still suggests it for grapes???

[Tonio]

Now that I have read the the info at the link that jal_ut posted, I see that what happened to my mother was probably not caused by Sevin. It would be more likely to have been caused by CARBON DISULFIDE or something similar.

Rozsman, sorry to hear about your mother. I rememeber my mother used DDT back in the 60's when I was a child. I wonder if that had any effect on her batlle w/ cancer for over 20years? Her body finally gave up in 2006.

T

[applestar]

Here’s another thread for your reference: Subject: Please read before you spray poisons! INFO SEVIN (carbaryl)

As gardeners, it’s very important to do your homework so you can make an informed decision/choice. This is a good time to read up on these kinds of information, before the gardening season gets into full swing.

[Gary350]

My Grandparents used Sevin, my parents used Sevin, many years ago I used Sevin but not anymore. I do not trust anyone or anything anymore especially big business and the government. If there is $$$$$$$$$$$$$ to be made people with say or do anything.

[imafan26]

None of the organophosphates are kind to beneficial insects. The only reason carbaryl and malathion are still on the market,
(Malation 50 isprogramactually half of the strength it used to be), is because they have a lower toxic index or LD50 (lower numbers mean they are more toxic); are relatively short acting, and are low risk to humans if used according to the label. These products are safer for non target species compared to other things, most of which have been withdrawn from the market like dursban, dibrom, diazinon, DDT, etc. This list included not just man made synthetics but also organic pesticides like rotenone and nicotine. Pyrethrins, while organic are pretty toxic as well especially in combination with other chemicals that extend their effects. It is also highly toxic to fish.
https://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/ex ... s-ext.html

Agriculture uses pesticides to protect their crops, but to get a pesticide license to use the better chemicals, you have to take pesticide safety classes, have OSHA rules to follow to protect both people and the environment. Farmers do want their products to pass FDA inspection and not be pulled off the market because of high pesticide levels in their products.

Commercial users are more likely than homeowners to actually use IPM.. monitor their fields for pest levels, select resistant varieties, and because chemicals are expensive they will use the product that works the best and cost the least and to make sure the crop is safe for market, they usually will not spray crops close to market. The food sold through commercially inspected sources are generally safe and test well below accepted levels.

The ones you really have to worry about are not the farmers, but the homeowners, who are not required to take any classes or have a license to purchase any non regulated pesticides. Homeowners notoriously don't read the labels and some of them don't even know most labels peel open with more information inside. Much of what is on the label is required by law, and the label is the law, but it is a lot of small print and many people don't take the time or follow the directions as they should. They don't measure when they mix, don't wear the proper gear, or launder them properly, and they spray everything. Homeowners rarely do any monitoring, while they may look for a pest after they see damage, they see the sooty mold but not the aphids or scale. Instead of choosing the least toxic method that does the job, they reach for a spray that will kill everything. What is on the market is much weaker than other products and very few organophosphates are left available to homeowners. Most stores actually try to stock mostly organic pesticides because that is what the public wants and they are trying to be more environmentally friendly.
https://news.aces.illinois.edu/news/goi ... unterparts
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-science-a ... de-program

Most homeowners and agriculture don't rotate crops and plant the same things year after year. If there is crop rotation it is often limited and while they may rotate crops with the seasons, they usually plant the same things at the same time of year every year, which is an open invitation to pest to keep coming back, same time next year. To keep any pest control program effective, you really need to use a combination of things including monitoring, roguing, isolation and control of alternate hosts, selective and non selective controls. To keep pests from becoming resistant, chemicals should be rotated along with the crops. Predators need to be preserved as much as possible which means providing food (pests), habitat, and limiting use of chemicals of all kinds.

I have used Sevin in the past, but have not used it in years, mainly because I have encouraged a healthy garden patrol to take care of the pests instead. I don't have 100% control, but if all of the pests were eliminated, my beneficial insects and lizards would go somewhere else because there would not be anything for them to eat. They do keep most things in control well enough that I can get a reasonable harvest by inspecting plants every time I work in the garden, using mostly water to knock off most pests, cutting back and removing heavily infested plants, and in some cases there are some plants I can't plant for a while until the pest pressure backs off. I still have to treat roses and hibiscus since they are hard to protect from diseases and erineum mites on the hibiscus. I treat them seasonally, and not all year, but my alternative is to get rid of the plants entirely. The one thing I use a lot is slug and snail bait, and that is a losing battle mainly because I have a lot of rain, potted plants and no real predators.

Would I use Sevin again? I don't know. Right now, the less toxic controls are working. However, if a new pest appears that does significant damage (which can happen when aliens are accidentally introduced in an environment without predators), I'd like to have some options.

I don't think any product is inherently bad. Synthetic or organic products can be equally damaging to non-target organisms if they are improperly used. It is not the product but the people who must act responsibly by doing their homework and selecting the least toxic method, apply the method or product correctly to limit runoff and contamination, and be vigilant but practical and not consider every critter an enemy that must be eradicated. Mother nature usually has a purpose for everything, however, I still can't figure out what roaches are good for.

[Rory]

Apparently I haven't figured out how to post right since first one vanished. Anyway, I use sevin when I need to. I will use DE when there is no rain in forecast and watering won't be pressing. Honeybees are not native species to begin with and North America apparently did fine before they arrived. Plenty of pollinators out there.

[rainbowgardener]

Would you consider reading the Sevin post at the link applestar gave above? Even if you don't care about honeybees, there are plenty of other reasons to avoid Sevin. Also please note that all though honeybees are the ones most studied and reported on due to their commercial value, when a report says "severely toxic to honeybees," it is pretty well guaranteed to wipe out all the native bees and a lot of other pollinators as well. Many ground-nesting species, such as squash bees, long-horned bees, mining bees, and sweat bees,construct their nests in the midst of annual and perennial crop fields. Poisonings may disproportionately affect smaller bee species. Most label guidelines only report toxicity to honeybees even though smaller bees may be harmed by correspondingly smaller doses of pesticides. And beehives can be moved or covered before spraying insecticides. It is very difficult to protect wild bees. The problem with poisons like Sevin and others is that they are broad spectrum, not discriminating, and they kill most insects and many other species.

[applestar]

Ooh rainbowgardener has pointed out my pet peeve. Even when you read the label and the instructions, they focus on exactly what the product is effective against — listing enemy pests that are familiar to gardeners ... but then the consumers might overlook that RELATED harmless bystanders and even BENEFICIAL insects would also be affected (poisoned, killed). Same with what specific organisms might be harmed — think of related organisms or that live in same environment that are not mentioned. Honeybees and native bees and wasps are good example... what about beetles/bugs and lady beetles/bugs? Gypsy moths, etc pest moths and Monarch butterflies?

So it’s also important that gardeners know who their friends are, and know who the black sheep in their families are that they are trying to get rid of.

Once you start doing this, it’s easier to question the label and look for and recognize other missing holes in their descriptions. There have been times that the inactive ingredients/carriers have caused additional or greater harm.

Note that same can be said for HERBICIDES as well as PESTICIDES.

[jal_ut]

Thank you all for your responses to my thread.

[kimberlymotley]

My fiance is currently on my $%#& list. He apparently put Sevin dust on my garden last night. On top of obvious reasons I do not want my plants exposed to it I am especially concerned that they will not be pollinated since the dust kills pollinators. Does anyone know how to remove this from my garden! please help!

[kimberlymotley]

any tips on how to remove it from a garden it was applied to by mistake?