Serenade anti-fungal?

[rainbowgardener]

Anyone tried this stuff yet?

https://www.agraquest.com/agrochemical/products/fungicides-serenade-max.php

It is being advertised as a broad spectrum anti-fungal " It protects vegetables, fruit, nut and vine crops against diseases such as Fire Blight, Botrytis, Sour Rot, Rust, Sclerotinia, Powdery Mildew, Bacterial Spot and White Mold. " (they do NOT include in their list fusarium or verticillium wilts) Perhaps also effective against early and late blight?

It is apparently a bacterium bacillus subtilis that attacks the fungi. It is advertised as " non-toxic to beneficial insects, mites, bees and other non-target organisms." and is OMRI organic certified.

What do we think? Is it worth a try? Do we believe all the claims for harmlessness?

[gixxerific]

Nobody will tell you the bad stuff and may inflate the good points. But the OMRI cert. means something. So hard to say in these day's, from what I see it looks to be a good product. But than again if you read the Monsanto propaganda it looks to be great as well.

[cynthia_h]

Although I usually look to the MSDS for pesticide/insecticide-type products, in the case of Serenade, the product label actually gives us the goods. The extended quote below in 1) is from page 1 of the 8-page "specimen label" on the product website (url provided in the original post on this thread); 2) is from the MSDS.

I have inserted everything in square brackets. Example: [NOTE: ….. ] I have also added the red to indicate language which I feel is of special concern vs. normal "boilerplate text."


1) [NOTE that "Agricultural Use" usually includes horticultural use as well.]

STATEMENTS– Agricultural Use
HAZARDS TO HUMANS & DOMESTIC ANIMALS
CAUTION
Causes moderate eye irritation. Harmful if absorbed through skin. Harmful if inhaled. Prolonged or frequently repeated skin contact may cause allergic reactions in some individuals. Avoid contact with skin, eyes or clothing. Avoid breathing spray mist. Wash thoroughly with soap and water after handling. Remove contaminated clothing and wash clothing before reuse.

PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT (PPE)
Applicators and other handlers must wear:
Long-sleeved shirt and long pants
Waterproof gloves
Shoes plus socks
NIOSH approved respirator with any N, P, R or HE filter. [NOTE: NIOSH = National Institute of Occupational Safety & Health]

Follow manufacturer’s instructions for cleaning and maintaining PPE. If no instructions are available, use detergent and hot water for washables. Keep and wash PPE separately from other laundry.
When handlers use closed systems, enclosed cabs, or aircraft in a manner that meets requirements listed in the Worker Protection Standard (WPS) for agricultural pesticides, the handler PPE requirements may be reduced or modified as specified in the WPS.

USER SAFETY RECOMMENDATIONS
ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS– Agricultural Use
Do not apply directly to water or to areas where surface water is present, or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark. Do not contaminate water when disposing of equipment washwaters or rinsate. Do not apply when weather conditions favor drift or runoff from treated areas.

DIRECTIONS FOR USE and Agricultural Use
It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling. For any requirements specific to your State or Tribe, consult the Agency responsible for pesticide regulation.
Do not apply this product in a way that will contact workers or other persons, either directly or through drift. Only protected handlers may be in the area during application.
For emergencies such as leaks or spills, call 24-hour toll-free CHEMTREC hotline at 1.800.424.9300. •••‣
Users should:
--Wash hands before eating, drinking, chewing gum, using tobacco or using the toilet.
--Remove clothing/PPE immediately if pesticides get inside. Then wash thoroughly and put on clean clothing.
--Remove PPE immediately after handling this product. Wash the outside of gloves before removing. As soon as possible, wash thoroughly and change into clean clothing.

Can be Used for Organic Production [NOTE: Amazing... ]
ACTIVE INGREDIENT
QST 713 strain of dried Bacillus subtilis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14.6%
OTHER INGREDIENTS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 85.4%
Total . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100.0%
Contains a minimum of 7.3 x 109 cfu/g [NOTE: cfu/g = colony-forming units per gram]
EPA Reg. No. 69592-11
EPA Est. No.: 69592-MEX-1
U.S. Patent Nos. 6,060,051; 6,103,228; 6,291,426; and 6,417,163 on QST 713 strain of Bacillus subtilis
US010-B-003

FIRST AID and Agricultural Use
IF ON SKIN: Take off contaminated clothing. Rinse skin with plenty of water for 15-20 minutes. Call a poison control center or doctor for further treatment advice.
IF IN EYES: Hold eyes open and rinse slowly and gently with water for 15-20 minutes. Remove contact lenses, if present, after the first 5 minutes, then continue rinsing eye. Call a poison control center or doctor for treatment advice.
IF INHALED: Move person to fresh air. If person is not breathing, call 911 or an ambulance, then give artificial respiration, preferably mouth-to-mouth if possible. Call a poison control center or doctor for further treatment advice.
Have the product label with you when calling a poison control center or doctor.

AGRICULTURAL USE REQUIREMENTS
Use this product only in accordance with its labeling and with the Worker Protection Standard 40 CFR Part 170. This Standard contains requirements for the protection of agricultural workers on farms, forests, nurseries and greenhouses and handlers of agricultural pesticides. It contains requirements for training, decontamination, notification and emergency assistance. It also contains specific instructions and exceptions pertaining to the statements on this label about personal protective equipment (PPE), and restricted entry intervals. The requirements in this box only apply to uses of this product that are covered by the Worker Protection Standard.
Do not enter or allow worker entry into treated areas during the restricted entry interval (REI) of 4 hours.
PPE required for early entry to treated areas that is permitted under the Worker Protection Standard and that involves contact with anything that has been treated, such as plants, soil or water is: coveralls, waterproof gloves, shoes plus socks.
Exception: If the product is soil injected or soil incorporated, the Worker Protection Standard, under certain circumstances, allows workers to enter the treated area if there will be no contact with anything that has been treated. ‣ ‣ ‣


2) On the other hand, the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), which one would expect to be the more explicit guard against inadvertent exposure or contamination, is much less strict in its warnings, and is only 4 pages long (vs. the 8 pages of the product label). Here is Section 8 (an MSDS contains 14 sections) of the MSDS:

SECTION 8: EXPOSURE CONTROLS / PERSONAL PROTECTION

General: Protective clothing should be selected according to the conditions likely to be encountered in the workplace. Applicators should follow label instructions. No exposure limits have been established. [NOTE: This means that neither minimum nor maximum safe levels are yet known, either for one-time exposures or chronic exposure.]

Engineering Controls: Use process enclosures, local exhaust ventilation, or other engineering controls to reduce airborne exposure at locations/operations where dust may be generated.

Personal Protective Equipment:
--Respiratory: Not normally required. [WHAT???] However, if dusty conditions exist, use a dust-filtering face mask or a NIOSH approved respirator with any N, R, P or HE filter for biological products.
--Eyes and Face: Chemical safety goggles or safety glasses with side shields. [NOTE that no eye protection was called for on the product label. This is the only time that I can find the MSDS to be more protective of the worker/gardener than the label.]
--Hands/Skin: Gloves made from chemically resistant material such as neoprene, vinyl, rubber, or nitrile. [NOTE: Label requires "waterproof" gloves.]
--Other Clothing: Wear suitable protective clothing such as long-sleeved shirt, pants, and shoes with socks.
--Hygienic Practices: Wash hands and exposed skin before eating, drinking, smoking or using the toilet.


So there you have it, Ladies and Gentlemen. An OMRI-certified product, approx. 85% of whose ingredients are not disclosed, which requires a NIOSH-approved respirator according to its label (but only under dusty conditions, according to the MSDS ), a 4-hour lockout period, an immediate decontamination procedure after applying it, etc.

Decide for yourselves whether this is a product you feel comfortable using in your home garden. Do you have the training needed to use the necessary PPE (personal protective equipment) safely to prevent inappropriate contact with this product? Can you keep it from drifting or runoff?

And...do you *really* believe, after the California Checkmate(tm) case (https://stopthespray.org), where the "inert" ingredients were proven to be approx. 8 times more toxic than the active ones, that the "inert" ingredients in Serenade are inactive and truly "inert"?

I'm personally surprised to see the OMRI certification on such a product, but I'm not intimately familiar with their requirements, and no doubt it does fall within their criteria. It just...seems...like a product that Mr. or Ms. Home Gardener is not equipped to use safely. IMHO. Meiner Meinung nach. uzw, und so fort.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[The Helpful Gardener]

Ummm... perhaps a moment before we stampede for the exits?

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_subtilis]Bacillus subtilis[/url] is one of the most common soil bacteria on the planet. If you have soil, chances are you have this bacteria. Ever eat natto? You have eaten this bacteria in quantity (You can't make natto without B. subtilis var. natto! It's where the sticky comes from!).

It's a gram positive aerobe, which makes its likelihood as a human pathogen almost nil. On the contrary; it has been noted to cause immunostimulatory effects and has previously been used to counteract Rotavirus and Shigella, two water contaminatory virals, until the dawn of antibiotics. Hardly a badguy...

MSDS's are always a touch scary the way they word them. What if I told you not too breath too much water because it was deadly? Indeed breathing too much water can be, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop drinking it... The OMRI certificate is likely completely warranted; I am sure the "other (deadly) ingredient" is H2O. While their testing is proprietary and they never discuss it, I trust OMRI implicitly... they ain't lied to me yet...

Cynthia, I know we have really good reason to be jumpy around pesticides and that "other ingredients" in many of them can be really nasty stuff, but this would be a horrible case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We organic gardeners have limited effective tools (not that we need as many), so we should be very careful not to discard the good ones we get...

HG

[cynthia_h]

The 4-hour lockout period, NIOSH respirators, and of course the Checkmate case in my own area add to my opinion about this product.

4-hour lockouts and NIOSH respirators are *not* standard for home gardening products. Esp. not the NIOSH respirators, which require fit-testing, training on proper use, etc.

And the litigation about Checkmate(tm), which was originally propounded as "just a pheromone-based anti-breeding spray to combat the light brown apple moth (LBAM)," proved that Checkmate was anything but that: the so-called inert ingredients themselves were many times more toxic to people and mammals than the pheromones themselves.

Professional applicators and others who have 40-hour OSHA/HAZWOPER training, sure: they'll be able to deal with this. That's exactly what the 40-hour training and the 8-hour refresher courses are all about:

--decon procedures and proper PPE, up to and including Level A,
--which respirator to use when--half-face? full-face?
--being fit-tested,
--maintaining the respirator,
--how to know that it's still serviceable,
--when to suspect that it may be ending its serviceable life prematurely,
--one's own pulmonary function, and
--all the other health and safety requirements of 29 CFR 1910.

But I fail to understand how 4-hour lockout periods and required NIOSH respirators will help home gardeners safely manage their gardens.

Cynthia

[The Helpful Gardener]

Cyn, homegardeners are applying this stuff with a spray bottle.

Ag workers are pulling a 1000 gallon tank attached to a fogger.

Hardly the same thing. If the ag workers didn't wear the gear they would be getting a MUCH bigger dose as they are treating MUCH larger areas with MUCH larger amounts over a MUCH longer period of time. Been there, done that. I have used more pesticides in an afternoon than everyone that reads this has used in their life. That's why I am organic now...

Ag requirements are all about the amount of water you have to breath to drown. That DOESN'T apply to home users who won't be bathing in this stuff for hours, which I am still not convinced has any deletorius effect, but again, due to "unknown effects", they always err to the side of caution to get their licensing. Besides, EPA has shown biotech a much nastier disposition than they show their chemical company cohorts, whom they let run amuck. I hope this is changing some...

I know the Checkmate case hit close to home and left you more than a little gunshy, but this company ain't them, and has been very concious about their testing and their introductions. They only do biologicals, and they test the snot out of them. This one has been in the industry for a long time and has shown no nasty side effects yet (and we are talking decades). The MSDS does not list respirators or re-entry intervals because homeowners do not need respirators or four hour REI's.

I give it the HG Seal Of Approval... Cynthia, you can give me the "told you so" when you hear about that first case of [url=https://www.gaia21.net/natto/recipe.htm]natto[/url] poisoning (which I believe I have heard you espouse before, have I not?)

HG

[cynthia_h]

Cynthia, you can give me the "told you so" when you hear about that first case of [url=https://www.gaia21.net/natto/recipe.htm]natto[/url] poisoning (which I believe I have heard you espouse before, have I not?)

HG

Uh...not me. I don't think I've ever eaten natto, actually. The odor really put me off; I couldn't get past it.

Sushi, yes. Sashimi, yes--from a known-to-be-reliable restaurant. Udon, always. Soba, no can do; it just doesn't work for me. Edamame, depends on the sodium content; some yes, some no.

But natto? That has got to have been someone else.

Cynthia

[The Helpful Gardener]

The ammonia smell can be a bit off putting, but it is a health food thousands of years old. Truth is I can't get by it myself, but still feel the fact that people have been eating the stuff in vast cultured quantity fro as long as they have (the Japanese vegetarian diet has been recognized for decades as one of the world's healthiest) gives this one the pass...

Sorry, must have mixed you up with another friend of mine (my friend Masanori is mad for the stuff).

HG