SQWIB
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My ramblings on composting

October 19th, 2018

My ramblings on composting



Composting
Kitchen waste. What is kitchen waste? If you ask me, kitchen waste is uneaten food bits that get tossed in the trash and make it's way to a landfill. I have very minimal kitchen waste, I do however have plenty of Kitchen scraps. What are Kitchen scraps? I consider kitchen scraps a recycled material not waste, because it is not waste, it is a renewable resource.

I religiously compost and have been composting in a compost bin for some years now, after some serious thought I decided I wanted something even easier than my current lazy composting regiment. I won't go into what I compost, but let's just say I compost a lot more items than the average person, however this article is about my method of composting not what I compost.

I decided in lieu of bin composting I would try "in situ" composting, so this past growing season I have been doing a lot of "composting in place" and so far it has worked out pretty well.

I wouldn't consider this "trench composting", because frankly I'm not digging a trench. I have heard it cleverly referred to as "Cathole Composting", "Dig and Drop Composting" and "Direct Composting".
I practice no till, and "in-situ" composting is the only time the soil is disturbed other than planting.

I simply dig in my kitchen scraps between the plants during the growing season, mark the area, then move onto the next area. I have even gently moved the mulch aside, tossed kitchen scraps directly on top of the soil and slid the mulch back.

When my Hugelkultur beds were really starting to settle, some pockets/voids opened up and I would tuck my scraps and trimmings into these voids.

Even when the beds are planted heavily with cover crops in the fall, I still can find a place for the kitchen scraps.

Now here is where it gets a bit fuzzy between composting and mulching.

Stuff like fresh yard trimmings and subpar veggies get tossed back on top of the bed during the growing season. In the winter if there's snow on the beds, I just toss kitchen scraps on top and cover with snow, sometimes I don't even cover the kitchen scraps. If the beds are frozen solid, I just toss the scraps on top of the bed. I will also do this with Bio-char, Rabbit manure, animal bedding and coffee grounds (also ashes, but I consider ashes a fertilizer).

I would consider this practice, mulching. So to be clear, if scraps are under the mulch layer and in direct contact (slightly soil covered) or under the soil, I consider it compost, if the scraps are above the soil line, I consider it a mulch. There, that was easy, wasn't it?

Here is a quick example of a few piles of Kitchen Scraps for compost topped with Coffee grounds and yard trimmings for a mulch.

I pushed aside some mulch, dug in three compost holes around my apple trees, covered with soil, slid the mulch back then topped with coffee grounds and some trimmed shrubs.
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Is it better than bin composting? It doesn't matter! What matters is, there is no wrong way to compost for the obvious reasons that you are using a renewable resource and keeping it out of a landfill.

Time will tell if this will be my final composting method.

Disclaimer. All the above under "Composting" is based on personal experience and no testing in labs have been done.

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rainbowgardener
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Don't you have trouble with cats, dogs, raccoons, and whatever other critters you have around you digging up the buried scraps?

We don't seem to have as many critters here and our back yard is fenced (and inside that, the veggie gardens are fenced), so that would help. But I know in our previous wooded, Cincinnati location, I couldn't even plant things with fish emulsion. The cats and raccoons would dig it all up looking for the fish....

SQWIB
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rainbowgardener wrote:Don't you have trouble with cats, dogs, raccoons, and whatever other critters you have around you digging up the buried scraps?

We don't seem to have as many critters here and our back yard is fenced (and inside that, the veggie gardens are fenced), so that would help. But I know in our previous wooded, Cincinnati location, I couldn't even plant things with fish emulsion. The cats and raccoons would dig it all up looking for the fish....

Not yet, but I do have to keep an eye on my Shepherd.

imafan26
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I do trench composting sometimes but I do have problems with mongoose at the herb garden and mice in the other gardens. I have to wait at least 2-3 weeks if I plant anything over it or it will get dug up. The mongoose dig up the garden looking for grubs. The mice want seeds. They have dug up and eaten my corn seeds more than once. if it is not the mice then it is the birds who dig up seeds.

I do like trench composting as an easy way to add organic matter without having to maintain a pile. The ground does sink after it liquifies so it is better if I mound it in the first place.

I have cats but they are supposed to stay indoors. So, far Jack made a door for himself in the screen and got out, but he did not stay out for long. I had to put a pet screen on the door to keep him from making another. He pushed out another screen in the bedroom I still need to fix. Unfortunately, that one has the screen inside the window instead of on the outside.

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digitS'
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SQWIB,

I do the composting in place, trench composting. I was cleaning up frost damaged dahlia debris today, piling it in a trench that I dug on one end of a garden bed. Kitchen scraps were at the bottom of the trench on the other side of the path, where I was burying the same debris, yesterday.

Other than earthworms, I don't remember anything ever digging into the beds for the compostables. Of course, my intent is to have that covered by 8" or more of soil. I've seen mice or evidence of them in my compost piles, several times.

Steve

bbg981
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I know composting is easy to do and all, but do you have any good pages to recommend?
Most of the composting sites tend to be outdated or just.. hard to read with their bad fonts and layouts.

the best I can find is https://decompose.co, but they have only 1 page :/

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digitS'
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The "stickies" attached to the top of this sub-forum is a good resource for information and conversations on composting.

New Mexico State University seems to cover composting in a comprehensive way.

How-to Publications: backyard composting

There is a link for you to download a pdf file for saving or printing. The link comes just before the "introduction."

Steve

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bbg981 wrote:I know composting is easy to do and all, but do you have any good pages to recommend?
Most of the composting sites tend to be outdated or just.. hard to read with their bad fonts and layouts.
the best I can find is https://decompose.co, but they have only 1 page :/

It depends on your garden, area and your intentions.

The site you linked, suggest no meat because it can harm the soil.
Just another site regurgitating information, some is useful some is just wrong.
I just composted a huge chicken breast and I'm sure the soil organisms are happy.
They also had no problem with my freezer burnt half gallon of ice cream.

imafan26
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The reason meat and some animal wastes are not recommended are because meat breaks down slowly and attracts vermin like rats, flies, and other things. Carnivore wastes not only smell bad, but can contain pathogens that may survive composting unless the pile gets up to temperature and then, it is probably better to use it on non-edibles just to be safe.

Composting should be simple, but it is not. Everything rots eventually.

Greens = high nitrogen and high water content. So kitchen and fresh green leaves, coffee grounds, fresh green grass clippings,
fresh or aged manures and high nitrogen fertilizers. If you are using fresh manure the pile needs to be a hot pile or
you need to wait at least 120 days to use the compost.

Browns = high carbon and low water content = Dry leaves and grass. woody twigs and branches, bark chips, paper,
cardboard, straw, pine needles, sawdust. Browns can be collected and stored, greens cannot.

Carbon sources can be very dense. sawdust, and paper are processed wood products and are denser than dried leaves or dried grass and have a higher C:N ratio. C:N of sawdust = 325:1, cardboard = 350:1, Newspaper 175:1, Straw and cornstalks 75:1, wood chips 400:1

Most greens have a C:N ratio of 15-30:1

If you use high C:N ratio materials, like sawdust, paper, cardboard and wood chips, you need to use them sparingly and spread them out. It also helps to add more nitrogen to balance it out.

Because microorganisms are responsible for the composting process, they need to be present in sufficient numbers (throw in some dirt and some compost from a working pile) and the organisms are more active when the weather is warm. This is why composting takes longer in the colder months. The composters need air, nitrogen, and water so the pile needs to be aerated and fluffed and kept moist but not soggy. There needs to be sufficient nitrogen in the pile to feed the organisms and keep the pile cooking.

https://www.cityfarmer.org/recipe.html

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digitS'
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This information is about the simplest techniques for composting:

Good Life Garden, UCDavis

The website looks especially useful for small gardens. I have used a modified version of their #3 Pit and Trench. What doesn't apply to what I do is using a garden bed as a path once every 3 years in a rotation cycle. I just bet that the ground would be difficult to maintain as a level path and, I'd prefer to have narrower pathways than beds. However, it is surprising how much decomposition can occur in the soil in a fairly short time, even where the soil freezes every winter.

What can you do in a vegetable garden with a bed where plant material is decomposing? I have piled frost-killed and other material well above the soil surface and then covered it with about 8" of soil from the original trench. I like to get something like a bag or two of composted chicken manure into that material mix. Settling is fairly significant by spring. I can begin to think of it as a planting bed by about the first of June, although it will have an uneven surface and be higher than other beds in the garden. Still, these beds have been useful for planting winter squash.

The squash really does grow on a "hill," but by the end of the growing season, that bed isn't much different from the others in the garden. In the following spring, it can be cultivated in the same way as anywhere else in the garden.

Steve

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imafan26
The site that was linked by bbg981 and in reference to this statement on the website

"Meat, chicken, and fish (or bones)

The main reason why we shouldn’t use these ingredients is the fact that they can harm the soil where we end up using the compost".

This is just not true



You said that meat and some animal wastes are not recommended because,
"The reason are because meat breaks down slowly and attracts vermin like rats, flies, and other things. Carnivore wastes not only smell bad, but can contain pathogens that may survive composting unless the pile gets up to temperature and then, it is probably better to use it on non-edibles just to be safe".

I can see the possibility of unwanted guests by using meat products in the compost bin but it's not going to harm the soil. I have also had critters visiting my veggie compost heap. And I'm not sure if you are saying Carnivore waste meaning excrement? I do agree that carnivore excrement should not be put in as compost but it can be burned and added as a bio-char. Cooked meat, fish and bones should be fine if buried deeply for your area. I sometimes will toss bones and cooked chicken scraps in the fire pit when making some bio-char.

I have buried quite a few family pets in the back yard over the years with no problem from critters.

I have more smell coming from vegetable matter that was sitting in my compost container than smell coming from sticking a piece of meat in the garden. Now don't get me wrong I don't go throwing hunks of meat all over the garden.


Another reason I switched to in situ composting was covered in your post here,

"Composting should be simple, but it is not. Everything rots eventually.

Greens = high nitrogen and high water content. So kitchen and fresh green leaves, coffee grounds, fresh green grass clippings,
fresh or aged manures and high nitrogen fertilizers. If you are using fresh manure the pile needs to be a hot pile or
you need to wait at least 120 days to use the compost.

Browns = high carbon and low water content = Dry leaves and grass. woody twigs and branches, bark chips, paper,
cardboard, straw, pine needles, sawdust. Browns can be collected and stored, greens cannot.

Carbon sources can be very dense. sawdust, and paper are processed wood products and are denser than dried leaves or dried grass and have a higher C:N ratio. C:N of sawdust = 325:1, cardboard = 350:1, Newspaper 175:1, Straw and cornstalks 75:1, wood chips 400:1

Most greens have a C:N ratio of 15-30:1

If you use high C:N ratio materials, like sawdust, paper, cardboard and wood chips, you need to use them sparingly and spread them out. It also helps to add more nitrogen to balance it out.

Because microorganisms are responsible for the composting process, they need to be present in sufficient numbers (throw in some dirt and some compost from a working pile) and the organisms are more active when the weather is warm. This is why composting takes longer in the colder months. The composters need air, nitrogen, and water so the pile needs to be aerated and fluffed and kept moist but not soggy. There needs to be sufficient nitrogen in the pile to feed the organisms and keep the pile cooking."


Statements like that scare away folks that would otherwise be happy composting. I am not saying that it is wrong, quite the contrary it is spot on and thanks for sharing!

Composting is as easy as you want it to be and I believe the majority of folks have good intentions and want to recycle and compost. I'm just sharing my observations on how I am composting in my small urban garden.
For some, having a compost bin/pile/tumbler is not possible so this is an alternative solution for those in that situation.

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digitS' wrote:This information is about the simplest techniques for composting:

Good Life Garden, UCDavis

The website looks especially useful for small gardens. I have used a modified version of their #3 Pit and Trench. What doesn't apply to what I do is using a garden bed as a path once every 3 years in a rotation cycle. I just bet that the ground would be difficult to maintain as a level path and, I'd prefer to have narrower pathways than beds. However, it is surprising how much decomposition can occur in the soil in a fairly short time, even where the soil freezes every winter.

What can you do in a vegetable garden with a bed where plant material is decomposing? I have piled frost-killed and other material well above the soil surface and then covered it with about 8" of soil from the original trench. I like to get something like a bag or two of composted chicken manure into that material mix. Settling is fairly significant by spring. I can begin to think of it as a planting bed by about the first of June, although it will have an uneven surface and be higher than other beds in the garden. Still, these beds have been useful for planting winter squash.

The squash really does grow on a "hill," but by the end of the growing season, that bed isn't much different from the others in the garden. In the following spring, it can be cultivated in the same way as anywhere else in the garden.

Steve

Thanks for sharing the link.

Steve I do a chop and drop, cover with some old potting mix and toss on a cover crop, when the cover crop dies, I toss on some compost then mulch with whatever I have laying around.


Bed ready for fall cleanup.
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Plants are cut at the soil surface, chopped and dropped. If I stop here, it is mulch!
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Bucket of weeds that were soaking in rainwater for a week are added.
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Some shredded cardboard is added and watered.
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Some spent potting mix is added.
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seeded with a cover crop and watered.
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Now the cover crop becomes the mulch (living mulch) and everything below that is composting.
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When this dies back it will be covered in cardboard, a layer of compost, rabbit manure and bedding, kitchen scraps, leaves then ramial woodchips.

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You must have snow or a lot of annual weeds. I have to be careful with chop and drop. The kinds of weeds I have will keep on growing and spreading. I do cover them with cardboard though. It slows them down a little.

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imafan26 wrote:You must have snow or a lot of annual weeds. I have to be careful with chop and drop. The kinds of weeds I have will keep on growing and spreading. I do cover them with cardboard though. It slows them down a little.
We get some snow, and as far as weeds go, the only weed I really get are stupid maple trees sprouting and late in the season bits of crabgrass show up, thats about it. I do get a prickly lettuce here and there but I let them grow and chop right before the seed heads form for a mulch. Up on the hill I do battle some vining weed (BINDWEED?) and ivy that some dimwit planted 40+ years ago.
If I do get weeds with seed heads, they're tossed in a bucket of water for a week or so then poured back in the garden.
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Well see what next year brings, I may be back saying I'll never chop and drop again :eek:


This is a few weeks before I put out my starts to harden off.
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Gary350
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When I was young & full of energy I tried compost many different ways, piles, bends, barrels, bags, boxes, it all takes up space, time & its a lot of work. 100 gallons of organic material makes about 10 gallons of compost.

Last fall I had a mountain of tree leaves I put some in a 100 gallon container then week after week I eventually put the other 400 gallons in the 100 gallon container. Now I have about 70 gallons of very good compost. 6 months from now it will probably be 50 gallons of compost. About May when weather is nice I will till it into the soil.

This year I am mowing the grass so the clippings blow into the garden. Tree leaves fall I mow them so they blow into the garden. I have lots of dead garden plants thrown along the back of the yard to die & dry I mow them so they blow in the garden. Then I till the soil it has to be tilled anyway. This is about as effortless as it gets.

jeanettehs
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Gary350 wrote:When I was young & full of energy I tried compost many different ways, piles, bends, barrels, bags, boxes, it all takes up space, time & its a lot of work. 100 gallons of organic material makes about 10 gallons of compost.

Last fall I had a mountain of tree leaves I put some in a 100 gallon container then week after week I eventually put the other 400 gallons in the 100 gallon container. Now I have about 70 gallons of very good compost. 6 months from now it will probably be 50 gallons of compost. About May when weather is nice I will till it into the soil.

This year I am mowing the grass so the clippings blow into the garden. Tree leaves fall I mow them so they blow into the garden. I have lots of dead garden plants thrown along the back of the yard to die & dry I mow them so they blow in the garden. Then I till the soil it has to be tilled anyway. This is about as effortless as it gets.
I avoid putting grass clippings in my garden beds. It tends to take root and then I have to battle the grass. As it is I am battling crabgrass in my vegetable beds. The only thing I have found to control that is continual pulling and digging out.

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Gary350
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About 95% of the population around here sprays Monsanto Weed B Gone on their yard so they have a beautiful yard that looks golf course grass. I am sure all that toxic poison gets into their trees and bushes too. People rake their tree leaves, trim bushed, cut trees, throw it along the side of the street, city trucks pick it up and take it all to the county mulch center where it is all chopped into tiny pieces. After it ages 1 year it is free to anyone that wants it. 40 years ago when not many people used toxic poison on there yard I use to get that 1 year old aged mulch to till into my garden soil but now days I don't trust that stuff in my garden. I wish I had 2 dump truck loads of that to till into my garden soil that is free of toxic cancer causing poison.

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Gary350 wrote:About 95% of the population around here sprays Monsanto Weed B Gone on their yard so they have a beautiful yard that looks golf course grass. I am sure all that toxic poison gets into their trees and bushes too. People rake their tree leaves, trim bushed, cut trees, throw it along the side of the street, city trucks pick it up and take it all to the county mulch center where it is all chopped into tiny pieces. After it ages 1 year it is free to anyone that wants it. 40 years ago when not many people used toxic poison on there yard I use to get that 1 year old aged mulch to till into my garden soil but now days I don't trust that stuff in my garden. I wish I had 2 dump truck loads of that to till into my garden soil that is free of toxic cancer causing poison.
Here in London I too am careful with my input ,this timee of year I "steal" our local road sweepers bags of leaves from the abundant trees in our street ,OK there may be a few bits of the local kids candy wrapper in it but the only chemicals would be from city air pollution ,part of our kitchen and garden waste plus a good neighbours help make a very good all round compost in one of my 3 plastic compost bins where worms slugs ,snails and pillbugs work on the mix.which takes around 6 months to reach a good consitency with minimum strring.



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