Easy Question re Browns and Greens

[KitchenGardener]

Hi all:

You have truly inspired me to start composting again and I am excited! I put it off for a long time, because the compost bin I had for years didn't work well for me and as a result, it was chore to compost so I didn't. This time around, I decided that the investment would be worth it if at the end of the day I had a composter that was workable for me, so I bought one - to be delivered today.

Now my question: can you help me out in identifying what would be considered brown and what would be considered green in these photos? I want to start off on the right foot with good ratios. Its not the time of year to come across much in the way of browns, but then I noticed that some of the grass in the mower bag, and some of the top stuff on my informal compost pile, had turned brown (I'm sure underneath its rotty, clumpy greens). Does the part that has dried out count as the brown part of my compost material?

I'm truly excited to have this work! As an aside, I just bought 3 bags of organic OMRI-listed compost from a reputable soil purveyor here and was stunned when I opened the bags to find a good deal of plastic bits and scrap mixed in. It pushed me over the edge for once and for all as I was truly disgusted

[KitchenGardener]

Oops, I know you're good, but you're not that good without pics!

[imafan26]

It took me a while to figure some of this out too. Especially when fresh leaves are greens and dried leaves are browns. The greens have a high water content so they shrink and pretty much melt down. Browns are high in carbon and get drier as they lose moisture but break down slowly. Fruit was tricky. When plants produce flowers and fruit it is so they can reproduce. They transfer much of their sugar and starches to the seeds so they will have reserves to start growing. Straches and carbs = carbon.

The easy part if it is green and high nitrogen and usually has a high water content like fresh leaves, fresh grass clippings, kitchen scraps, freshly pulled weeds they are greens
other high nitrogen things also considered green manure, fertilizers. coffee grounds

Browns are dried and brown and have a low water content like dried leaves, stems, branches, newpaper, cardboard, wood chips, peanut shells, nut shells in general, fruit waste (high carbohydrates = high carbon), corn stalks, ashes
Be careful not to add too much ash as it is very alkaline bu high in potassium
Other things people like to add to piles, comfrey and borage = high in calcium

https://www.planetnatural.com/composting-101/c-n-ratio/

[rainbowgardener]

It can be hard to tell by looking at pictures, because of course "green" and "brown" (in this context) have nothing to do with color. Manure is a "green" because moist and Nitrogen rich.

There is a whole thread about greens and browns here: https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... =35&t=9089

imafan gave you a good answer. I usually sum it up, green = soft, moist, Nitrogen rich; brown = hard, dry, Carbon rich.

RE: " but then I noticed that some of the grass in the mower bag, and some of the top stuff on my informal compost pile, had turned brown (I'm sure underneath its rotty, clumpy greens). Does the part that has dried out count as the brown part of my compost material? " No, not really. It's the difference between hay and straw. Both of them are cut, dried grass/ grains. But hay is cut green and is a "green" in the compost pile. Straw is allowed to dry out before cutting and is a "brown" in the compost pile. Likewise tree leaves that are taken from a tree green are "green." Fall leaves are a "brown." The difference is that the tree and the grain stalk being thrifty, reclaim the Nitrogen before the leaves/stalks die. So the green ones have moisture and N, the ones that dried naturally do not, because the plant reclaimed it.

I stockpile fall leaves while they are abundant, so I still have them to feed in to my compost pile as I add greens. If you don't you can use shredded paper. When I run out of fall leaves, I usually go buy a bale of straw from the local feed mill and use that until fall leaves reappear.

What kind of composter did you buy?

Best Wishes!

[imafan26]

The nitrogen in the greens will be one of the first things to volatize off as decomposition progresses, there is less nitrogen as time goes on.

Greens and browns are not considered equal.

A balanced pile will have a ratio of 25:1 C:N ratio. The pile should be a minimum 3x3x3 and be damp but not soggy to get it to heat up nicely. If you are using about equal amounts of fresh sources like plants the ratio is about right in the range of 20-35:1, however if you are using processed sources of cabon like newspaper, cardboard, sawdust, wood chips the C:N ratio can be very high over 100:1. Hard stems like cornstalks are also high in carbon.

Too much nitrogen will make a pile stinky
Too much carbon and it won't heat up enough
Too much water, slimy stinky mess.

Just right, steams up in a day or two, smells earthy.

[KitchenGardener]

Haha, you all went and got all technical on me! Go easy, I'm just starting out!

Basic question: if I have leaves, grass and compost that has dried out and turned brown, why isn't that considered "brown" material? Can someone explain it to me in a nontechnical way? I thought the whole point was to find the correct ratio of fresh material to browns - things like shredded paper and cardboard, dried leaves, etc. Why wouldn't stuff like the dried grass clippings count then? TIA

[KitchenGardener]

Oh, now I'm re-reading the answer from RainbowGardener - so the grass I cut, which has dried out is not considered a "brown" because it was green when I cut it? So "brown stuff" is stuff that has turned brown as part of its end of life process and not because it was dried out in the sun? Is that it? I'm scrounging around for browns as its not the season for anything but green! What do you all use at this time of year that I don't have to buy?

[toxcrusadr]

You got it!

Ideas for browns: Shredded office paper or newspaper, torn cardboard, sawdust or wood shavings from a woodworking friend or cabinet shop (avoid treated lumber dust), straw (not hay) including spoiled bales and spilled stuff from the home center or nursery that sells straw bales, wood chips (you can often get these free from tree companies or your elec. utility).

BTW, at the top of this forum is a sticky thread called List of Browns and Greens.

[KitchenGardener]

Thank you - I've now perused it and will be pestering anyone/place that I think will have free straw/wood chips/sawdust/brown leaves/unsullied cardboard...

[imafan26]

Plant stems and tree branches are also browns.

[KitchenGardener]

So last night I ate a bunch of cherries and had a bowlful of cherry pits. Of course I started wondering since they are kinda woody, would they, and any stone fruit pits, be considered browns? Not the fruit itself, just the pits?

[imafan26]

The very hard shells will probably take years to break down.

[applestar]

I would call them Browns -- they may sprout and get knocked around and die, then they will supply some greens, and the pits will provide larger aggregate that will help with drainage, too.

[rainbowgardener]

I think a brown is something that breaks down in the compost pile and contributes carbon to the finished product. The cherry pits are not going to break down any time soon. I wouldn't count them. Besides, you would have to have thousands of cherry pits to have enough to make any difference.

By volume, browns should be at least equal to greens.

[Taiji]

I'm glad to finally get this straight too; the difference between browns and greens, and how much volume-wise to put in of each! Maybe a source of natural browns at this time of year could be to go out into the national forest or country and rake up some leaves from last fall, or some pine needles from the previous year. Lots of pine needles on the ground hereabouts at least.

I use one of those plastic compost tumblers on a stand. I know a lot of people say they are worthless, but mine seems to do well. I never notice a foul odor, and if I keep it moist inside with an occasional squirt from the garden hose it makes a great texture. When I put in kitchen vegetable scraps, they are hardly recognizable a couple of weeks later. Maybe the downside is that I could get quicker results with a series of bins instead, don't know. When the tumbler is full and still working, (I only have one right now) I just bury kitchen scraps directly into the garden.

[rainbowgardener]

I've never used a compost tumbler. My main problem with them is that it is batch composting. You have to load it up with a batch of compostables (where were you storing them before you got a batch full?). Then while that is tumbling, you can't keep adding more or you will never have finished compost. Where I used to live, I could not have buried kitchen scraps - raccoons and other critters would have dug them up again. Now I think I could get away with it, but (sorry), it always seemed kind of yucky to me. Do you mark the spots so you don't accidentally dig into them again, when weeding or planting?

If I were going to have tumblers, I would want two or at least one of the two chambered ones:



When I moved here at the end of summer last year and no leaves were coming down yet, I just used torn up paper and cardboard as browns.

[Taiji]

Actually, I do accidentally dig into the garbage once in awhile! But, I just move over a little! It's surprising though how fast this Arizona hot soil incinerates organic matter.

Yes, you're right. It would better to have more than one tumbler. Last year I just kept adding to it til I couldn't rotate it anymore. It's nice stuff now. Probably not the most efficient system, but it sure is convenient.

[KitchenGardener]

I'm so glad for this information on the tumbler composter, since that is the kind I just bought and am using. Years ago, I tried the big black square plastic type composter with no bottom, where you'd lift it off and pitch fork the contents around. The problem for me is that I have invasive bermuda grass which would come up from the bottom and make it very hard to mix. Yes, the middle was hot and there was no bermuda grass growing there, but it was such a hassle trying to mix it when I was constantly fighting with the edges and sides. I suppose if I had been really diligent, I would've gone after the grass in a big way to eliminate it, but I just wanted compost, not a full time job!

Anyway, I have my tumbler now and I'll see how I do. I keep opening and adding more, and I know that defeats the purpose, but I want to at least fill up the first side before I move over to the next compartment. So far, I love its ease of use.

[rainbowgardener]

Well, you understand that unless you generate pretty huge amounts of compostables daily, you will never succeed in filling it up. If it is nearly full today, tomorrow when you come back it will be half empty.... If you want the finished compost, at some point you just have to say stop. Especially if you have the two chambered one, just switch to filling the other side. You can keep doing that until the stuff in the first side has composted, at least a month.

[KitchenGardener]

So now questions: I am just a simple home gardener without shredders and chippers. How do others in the absence of high tech tools, get compostables in workable size? Here are my questions:

1) when I pull a bunch of long weeds, do I have to cut them up before putting them in the composter?

2) Do you cut up corn husks? What about corn cobs - do you chop them up?

3) Is there a better way to deal with cardboard then to sit and shred it up (no, I don't have a hamster)?

4) Is there anything of large size that you don't feel its necessary to cut up?

5) what's the deal with coffee grounds - can I put them into the composter with their paper filter? Do they need to go in the composter or can I put them straight into the garden?

Thanks for any suggestions you may have or any light you can shed on composting for me!

[rainbowgardener]

So now questions: I am just a simple home gardener without shredders and chippers. How do others in the absence of high tech tools, get compostables in workable size? Here are my questions:

1) when I pull a bunch of long weeds, do I have to cut them up before putting them in the composter? NO

2) Do you cut up corn husks? What about corn cobs - do you chop them up? NO (but if I were putting the corn stalks in the compost, I would cut them up)

3) Is there a better way to deal with cardboard then to sit and shred it up (no, I don't have a hamster)? Just tear it in notebook paper sized pieces

4) Is there anything of large size that you don't feel its necessary to cut up? I don't do all that much cutting up.

5) what's the deal with coffee grounds - can I put them into the composter with their paper filter? YES Do they need to go in the composter or can I put them straight into the garden? Straight in the garden, I wouldn't use the paper filter, and you should scratch them into the ground a little.

Thanks for any suggestions you may have or any light you can shed on composting for me!

Depends on how fast you want finished compost. The smaller you cut/ shred it, the quicker it will break down and become compost. But if you are willing to just throw stuff in the compost pile and let it sit for months, you don't need to do much chopping.

[KitchenGardener]

So now questions: I am just a simple home gardener without shredders and chippers. How do others in the absence of high tech tools, get compostables in workable size? Here are my questions:

1) when I pull a bunch of long weeds, do I have to cut them up before putting them in the composter? NO

2) Do you cut up corn husks? What about corn cobs - do you chop them up? NO (but if I were putting the corn stalks in the compost, I would cut them up)

3) Is there a better way to deal with cardboard then to sit and shred it up (no, I don't have a hamster)? Just tear it in notebook paper sized pieces

4) Is there anything of large size that you don't feel its necessary to cut up? I don't do all that much cutting up.

5) what's the deal with coffee grounds - can I put them into the composter with their paper filter? YES Do they need to go in the composter or can I put them straight into the garden? Straight in the garden, I wouldn't use the paper filter, and you should scratch them into the ground a little.

Thanks for any suggestions you may have or any light you can shed on composting for me!

Depends on how fast you want finished compost. The smaller you cut/ shred it, the quicker it will break down and become compost. But if you are willing to just throw stuff in the compost pile and let it sit for months, you don't need to do much chopping.

Thank you so much for your detailed response; it really helps me! Off to compost some more now...

[toxcrusadr]

Find a mil surplus store or a Harbor Freight and buy a $10 machete to chop your long stuff up with. Watch your fingers please.

Cardboard tears easily when wet.

Compost your paper filters as well as tea bags, paper towels, napkins. They all grew on trees at one time.

[imafan26]

The smaller the pieces the faster they will compost. You might consider chipper/shredder if you have enough stuff to shred. You might want to rent one first and see if it does what you need it to do. Sometimes you can find second hand ones. The cheap ones are mostly for leaves. The more expensive ones can do some small branches. You need a monster to do a tree.

If you want to get a jump start on the compost pile, contact your local tree trimmers, often if they are in the area they will drop a load for free, already chipped. You have to be picky and make sure the chips are fine and that the material is free of nasty weeds and roots and has not been sprayed with herbicides. Here the local utility offers tree trimmings for free when they are in the area, but they drop it where it is convenient for them to access and you won't know when they are coming and it is usually a big truck load.

[KitchenGardener]

Thank you all for this information. I've been debating whether to include paper products like napkins and paper towels; I just don't like to think of all the chemicals used in their production. But then again, I am using cardboard, so...