Spent coffegrounds from non eco/organic growing.

[Mr green]

I don't think that was rude, it simply makes the point that you're going to have a hard time reducing all risk to zero.

Well since your defending obviously bullying like this and don't find it rude: "If you take a pharisee stance of no chemicals ever. Plan on living in a cave, in a hair shirt." If this is not rude I don't know what is. Just because I wanna reduce all I can to a minimum and you two doesnt share my view... Also it didnt add EDITED - PLEASE REPORT THIS POST to the conversation.

After such an awful statement I'm not even gonna care to read your post.

[toxcrusadr]

I certainly mean no offense, and simply agreeing that you will have a hard time reducing risk to zero is hardly an awful statement. One thing I have learned about the Internet is that it helps to have a thick skin and to not take things personally. I am disappointed that you are unwilling to read my post, which I spent considerable time on and also tried to make objective and scientific as much as possible. I will choose not to take it personally. Life is too short for that.

PS Lao Tzu was a very wise man.

[Mr green]

Well don't you feel its a bit different to tell someone to go live in a cave with a hairshirt VS I think it will be hard for you to reduce the risk to zero.

Huge difference in my book. Also I wanna reduce everything bad as much as I can and I don't think I deserve being called anything for that if people simply don't like it go to the next thread, I'm not affecting their lifes in anyway specially not with my as toxic free approach I can manage.
And I will take time to read your post soon I'm just kinda fed up having to deal with people calling me this and that just because I'm not like the mainstream, and I don't think thats something that should be promoted. Add something good to a conversation and its all good, just threw out something hatefull because you don't share someones view is something else!

Have a kid to tend to, and put to bed, will come back later and promise to read your post!

[Mr green]

I don't think that was rude, it simply makes the point that you're going to have a hard time reducing all risk to zero.

Had a whole thing typed up and hit a wrong key so I'll summarize:

As a 'decent chemist' (environmental, that is - devoted my career to protecting the public from toxins), I think you DO need to take into account various factors:
1) 'The dose makes the poison', to quote the Greek Paracelsus, and it's still true today. Minimizing exposure is good, but it will not be zero, so the question is, what is a safe level, and which areas do I get the best return for the extra effort?
2) Most pesticides ARE required to decompose rapidly, which is why we don't use DDT and other persistent ones anymore. (the term "inactivated" above referred to degradation, either by light exposure, hydrolysis, biodegradation, etc.).
3) I'm not saying there is 'zero' in food or peelings, but in order to use a pesticide (in the US anyway), one has to demonstrate it does not contaminate the food to a level deemed unsafe. Period.
4) I don't blame you for not trusting industry, but if you don't trust the regulators AT ALL, you're really in a fix. The system may not be perfect but it IS set up to protect you and the environment and it's the best we have. If it didn't exist we'd have to invent it pretty quick.
5) Yes there is further breakdown of residues in the compost, it is a VERY biologically active system.
6) There are multiple dilution steps: if you add garden waste, leaves etc. it dilutes the food scraps and any pesticide residues (which I have stipulated are not 'zero'). Then you dilute the compost into your garden soil. Then there would have to be an uptake by plants - the part of the plant you eat. The idea that they could do this in significant amounts is a stretch, in my professional opinion.
6.1) Following up on plant uptake, someone posted that pesticides are water soluble and would penetrate plant tissues, human skin, etc. Both plants and humans are very selective in their uptake so this cannot be assumed. Also, many pesticides are NOT water soluble; they are made soluble in the concoctions you buy, by adding surfactants and solvents.
7) Testing used coffee grounds for pesticides would be a very expensive task. You would first have to research what pesticides are USED, then find a lab able to analyze for each of them. It would costs thousands of $. Just FYI. To me, it is not worth it, based on everything else I am saying here.
"Coffee has 'strong acids' " - Strong acids (in chemistry) are also known as mineral acids such as hydrochloric, nitric, sulfuric etc. Plant matter has organic acids, aka weak acids, such as vinegar, vitamin C, etc. Also, if coffee consumed in reasonable amounts damaged the kidneys, we would probably know that. Coffee has been highly studied.
9) Yes, it is possible to measure parts per million, and parts per billion, and in some cases, parts per trillion, accurately. We chemists have been working on this for a long time. You're welcome!

This is getting long so I'll give it a rest. Even though I am keenly aware of the toxicity of chemicals in the environment, at my house all kitchen waste goes into the compost. The landfill is a sin and I avoid it as much as possible!

Happy composting.

1: Well since I'm not using coffe my self just researching if its worth for me to bring it in from other sources.
2: What do they brake down into then? Other harmfull substances or not?
3: Safest practise would be ban all pesticides, and go back to real non monoculture farming IMO. Ofc this cant be done over night. But farming can be done withouth it no doubt even commercially. So why are we even taking the slightest risk, also we must care for the poor workers in the fields, that has alot higher risk than the consumers alone. Specially in many so called third world countries.
4: I agree the corrupt system we have is better than none at all, but in no way that means (to me atleast) that we shouldnt strive to get it better.
5: True
6: Round up is one of the most commonly used pesticide, and is indeed water soluble. Human skin is a breathing mecanism (yes you breathe in air threw the skin) Anything small enough may enter thrue the skin into the bloodstream. If its water soluble it is small enough. Even if they are made soluble with solvents, that just means you get the pesticides + the solvents. And you made the pesticide: Watersoluble.
7: Yes I know that and thats what I wrote as well, I'm not looking to do it. Maybe if I owned a lab and was a millionaire...
8: Well if you gonna stretch as far as as long as its an acid from a plant its non dangerous your painting your self into a corner. Vitamin C is ofc not a dangerous substance (in normal quantities you can ofc overdose on pretty much anything to prove a statement.) And has been numerous studies of the negative effects of coffe, only until recently they started to say its good to drink becouse they found antioxidants in it! WOW Eat dog EDITED - PLEASE REPORT THIS POST too, has lots of nutrients. Toxic plants also has lots of nutrients. Like the Coca plant I'm sure it has a good amount RDI% Of minerals etc.
9: Really? And still the Bio chemist havnt come up with a better explenation of what plants need other than N-P-K and a few minerals? That puzzles me.

And sorry for not speaching technically correct or in laymens terms, but I'm not a chemist. Just a gardener.

Also worth noting: In Sweden we don't have landfills anymore they are so 1940:s! We have 2 trash cans mostly, one is for burnable trash, and the other for compost (goes to make biofuel) And thats were I put all my pesticide infested EDITED - PLEASE REPORT THIS POST hehe.
Paper, cardboard, glas, metal and plastics all gotta be recycled, as well as batteries, lamps etc etc. Left is old concrete for tairing down buildings and old porcelin and stuff like that, well thats landfill masses! Mostly used to fill up land were will build an stuff like that.

But you really need to get away from the landfills! Its super unsustainable... We have lead the way and showed you it can be done!

[toxcrusadr]

I can't fault you for wanting to reduce your risk as much as possible, and frankly I think in some ways this is all a grand experiment, especially related to long term effects. Look at the honey bees: we have no idea what is going on and some scientists suspect pesticides causing subtle effects possibly not observed in the short term studies done for registration. Because of this and many other reasons, I do promote reducing our dependence on chemicals.

A few thoughts on some topics (keeping the numbering system):

2. What do they (pesticides) break down into? It is specific to each chemical. One part of the studies done for registration is to determine what those products are, how long they last, where they go and whether they are toxic. I did some of those studies when I worked for a research lab.
6. Skin absorption is more complicated than whether something is water soluble or is a small molecule. Also you have to take into account how 'bioavailable' a molecule is. For example some are trapped within the humus matrix (in compost) or fine pores (in soil) and not easily extracted. And if it is available to actually enter through the skin (or lungs, stomach etc.) it does not always do so efficiently. Passive soil ingestion is one pathway routinely considered in contaminated site cleanup, and even though you can measure a concentration of a chemical in soil in the lab, if you feed the soil to a mouse, 100% of the chemical is not extracted and absorbed by its digestive system. It is specific to each chemical. I'm just saying this is one thing you have to consider when quantitating the risk from traces of toxic chemicals in compost.
7. I was not suggesting that any acids from plants are safe, only clarifying the terms 'strong' and 'weak' and 'mineral' and 'organic'. Obviously some plants are toxic, and not only that, strong acids are used in food products, greatly diluted. Your stomach has hydrochloric acid at a pH of 1 which would be very dangerous in your eyeballs. The original point was that coffee is not dangerous just because it is acidic. Hopefully we agree on that. You might find it interesting to search the web for 'pH of foods'. The results may surprise you.

I completely agree with you about landfills. I have spent considerable time and effort trying to divert resources from them. They are a necessary evil, you have to have one for some things. But far too cheap to use here in the US where land is plentiful, and people do not care enough, so much is wasted. This cannot go on forever.

[cass2828]

If the beans had any of the pesticides left doesn't that mean we are drinking pesticides mixed with our coffee???

[Mr green]

Thanks for the answers toxcrusadr and for clearing out some facts.

And about foods PH its an interesting thing, and I eat mostly raw food and strictly veganic so my PH balance became very good, (done some testing) many acidic fruits just like in compost levels out to a neautral ph when you eat it, or atleast doesnt acidify your body. So I guess you have that aspect too.

[Gary350]

Coffee grounds contains nitrogen. Wish I could get a pick up truck load from all the local coffee shops.

[toxcrusadr]

cass2828: Yes, I would assume that if there were chemicals on the beans themselves, that some portion may be extracted into the brew. In my estimation that is minimal, but this issue is the basis for eating only Organic foods. The OP eats Organic and is concerned about adding chemicals to the garden by composting used non-Organic coffee grounds from an outside source.

Mr green: I'm not a medical expert but pH balance in your body does not seem to have much to do with the pH of foods you eat, within reason. The body has all sorts of mechanisms for adjusting the pH of the digestive tract, blood, tissues etc. I suspect it's quite complicated. Funny story: Years ago I got into an argument with a college student who insisted that citrus and milk should never be eaten within hours of each other because the acid in the citrus would 'curdle' the milk and make it undigestible. Apparently he had learned this from parents, etc. I tried to explain that stomach acid is 100-1000 times stronger than the acid in orange juice, so milk will curdle when it hits your stomach regardless of anything else you ate or didn't eat, and it has no effect on digestion. In fact, the acid is necessary for digestion! I was unable to convince this person even though I had a chemistry degree. LOL So they are probably still refusing to eat milk and oranges together to this day.

[Mr green]

I'm not a medical expert but pH balance in your body does not seem to have much to do with the pH of foods you eat, within reason.

Its something along with what I tried to say. My PH became better with my new diet and if you would look of the PH of the foods one could easily assume the opposite.

One thing I do know is that different foods digest with help of different enzymes, some things are not the best to blend for an easy digestion.