tcomponent
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Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

Is there where water and CO2 expelled
Is there where water and CO2 expelled
Dear Gardeners.
My name is Stephanus Kusuma from Indonesia, I'm new here.
I'd like to learn how to compost. There are so many things to learn, but perhaps these simple few questions first.
1. What is the end product of aerobic composting?
2. What is the end product of aerobic composting?
3. Would both process expell water and CO2?

Here are my composter.
Is there where water and CO2 expelled
Is there where water and CO2 expelled
Thank you very much for any idea :D
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rainbowgardener
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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

You meant one of those questions 1 & 2 to read what is end product of anaerobic composting?

Your composters both look to be anaerobic.

Really we don't even call it composting when anaerobic, since composting is an aerobic process. Anaerobic digestion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso ... _digestion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_digestion

An anaerobic digester will give off methane ("swamp gas") CO2, and probably some H2S (hydrogen sulfide) -- which is the chemical responsible for the smell of rotten eggs.

I'm not familiar with anaerobic digestion, but as near as I can tell, it is more often done in order to harvest the methane/ biogas for fuel. To use the solid leftovers in the garden they would still need to be aerobically composted.

The end product of aerobic composting is called "compost." It is organic humus, with a variety of nutrients and soil micro-organisms. It is very good for adding to soil, to improve tilth (soil structure, loaminess), improve both drainage and moisture retention, and feed the soil. But it is not fertilizer. The nutrients in it are not concentrated as in fertilizers and they are released slowly. The micro-organisms and other soil life (including earthworms if your compost pile is in contact with the soil) are as important a component in the benefit of compost as the actual N-P-K and well made compost from a variety of ingredients also has all the micro/ trace nutrients plants require. These include Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfur, Boron, Chlorine, Manganese, Zinc, Iron, Copper, etc and usually none are present in synthetic fertilizers.
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applestar
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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

It's so intriguing that there are new something to learn about every day here. :D

I've never seen contraptions like that and will have to go look up anaerobic digestion.

Only anaerobic composting that I know about is Bokashi, and that's really not composting but fermentation. These containers won't work for Bokashi since they seem to have some kind of vent holes along the bottom in addition to the tubing and The outflow marked "B". With Bokashi container, as much air is excluded as possible, and the container is sealed shut.
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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

@Rainbowgarderner,
@applestar
Thank you very much for your replies. I'll study them.

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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

In respond to @applestar and @rainbowgardener. - "This looks like anaerobic"
But according to "environment group" (my Church has an envinronment group), we inject EM4 bacteria, so there would be no stinky smell, (I guess the nitrogen and sulfur are broken down before the become ammonia and hidrogen sulfide) and furthermore they the composters sometimes become hot.
I just bought those bins yesterday, but haven't got the EM4 bacteria, so I haven't put food waste in them. I bought two, because, for someone who doesn't have microscope, I want to do some "experiment", I want to make the EM4 bacteria, so we don't have to buy. Even if the church sells it at a very cheap price. About 3 USD per year consumption.
So I have to learn what is the composting process.

Okay, here first.
These composters bin (according to my pastor) sometimes become warm/hot.
1. Is it aerobic process?
2. If it is, how can the oxygen be introduced to these bin? By opening the hatch occasionally?

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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

Thanks for any answers. Sorry forgot to put this last sentence. Btw, can we edit our post?

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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

You can edit posts if you get back to them in the first couple hours. After that they are locked and the edit command goes away. Then all you can do is PM a moderator or webmaster and they can fix whatever it is.

OK, when you are talking EM, effective microbes, you are talking bokashi fermentation. It is an anaerobic process, so you are not introducing oxygen. The anaerobic bacteria take care of it and break down the stuff that would be stinky. So you want stuff to ferment, NOT to putrefy.

Here's some info about bokashi fermentation: https://gardensfromgarbage.org/home/faq_ ... composting
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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

It's actually good to have two containers -- essential even -- because you need to layer the kitchen scraps with the inoculant until the container is filled, the SEAL for a period of time without disturbing it. So while that one is "cooking" you would need a second one to put your scraps in and fill up.

I must be misinterpreting the function of what looks like holes...?
I'd love to see the inside of these containers and how they are designed 8)

I wonder what the designation of the number "4" is in the beneficial/essential microbes your church is getting? I didn't look at the link rainbowgardener posted yet, but to make your own Bokashi, the correct way, my understanding is that you need to start with at least a small amount of the "prime" culture -- EM-1-- which really needs to be cultured in a laboratory to be sure that all of the beneficial microbes are present -- which they verify by examining under microscope.

The resulting Bokashi is used to inoculate your container of kitchen scraps.

I did try culturing extra Bokashi from a commercially obtained Bokashi by inoculating a container of moistened bran (and molasses and seasalt). It seemed to work and resulted in *something* But I had no way to verify the microbial content and I have heard that some of the ones in the EM-1 are short lived and can't be cultured without specialized environment.

Hmmm... I wonder.... IF Bokashi cultured by inoculating with EM-1 is called EM-2, then what I had made might be EM-3, and EM4 might be a generation cultured from that? This is pure speculation on my part.
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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

From Wiki:
Effective Microorganisms® and EM ® are the trademarks of Em Research Organization, Inc. (EMRO), Uruma City, Okinawa, Japan.[1] EMRO has commercial licensees and manufacturers worldwide.[2]

An effective microorganism refers to any of the predominantly anaerobic organisms, "very common species found in all environments as extensively used in the food industry",[3] blended in commercial agricultural amendments or for environmental applications such as for septic tanks.[citation needed] EM products are purported to support sustainable practices in farming, improve composting operations, and to reduce environmental pollution.

Many of the so-called "pit additives" used for improving the performance of sanitation systems, namely pit latrines, septic tanks and wastewater treatment plants, are also based on Effective Microorganisms.
The Wiki article doesn't talk about EM 1, 2, 3, 4 specifically but does note that there are different blends of different kinds of bacteria

[*EM constituents; Natural occurrence & food industries; Example;
*lactic acid bacteria; plant surfaces, soil, sauerkraut, silage, kefir, dairy; lactobacillus casei
*phototrophic bacteria; ubiquitous (air, water, soil, organisms); rhodopseudomonas palustris
*other bacteria; ubiquitous microorganisms that exist naturally in the environment; actinomycetales
*yeasts; skins of fruits/berries/crops, soil, insects; saccharomyces cerevisiae
*nutrient solution; pH 3.5 to 3.8; molasses]

This article talks more specifically about the different blends:
EM is a blend of beneficial microorganisms developed by Teruo Higa, a professor at the University of the Ryukyu in Japan. These microorganisms improve the health of the soil, the plants, water and humans by breaking down organic matter in the soil, fixing nitrogen from the air, and feeding and protecting plants and animals. The organisms included are primarily yeast and pro-biotic photosynthetic bacteria and lactic acid bacteria. Buying EM is quite expensive, and you actually can make yourself at very minimal cost.

In Asia, they even further process the EM into 4 types of EM (EM1, EM2, EM3 and EM4) and become much more effective and best depending what you will use the EM for. Here is simple way to make your own EM.
EM1 is the original trademark product and contains a group of bacteria primarily lactic acid bacteria (lactic acid produced in metabolism), yeast, and photosynthetic bacteria. EM1 contains only three types of microorganisms in ideal proportions.
EM2 is a mixture of more microorganisms, which is about 10 types and 80 species. Microorganisms, like many in EM1, also exist together as a consortium. The main microbes that exist in the EM2 is a photosynthetic bacteria, fungi, yeasts or molds, and so on. Made in liquid culture medium with pH 7 and stored at pH 8.5. The population of microorganisms in the solution is about 10 (9) or 1 billion cells per gram of fluid.
EM3 consists of approximately 90% of bacteria photosynthesis and the rest are of other microorganisms. EM3 was cultured and stored at pH 8.5. Microorganism population in the fluid is also about 10 (9) or 1 billion cells per gram of fluid.
EM4 consisted of 90% Lactobacillus spp. and microorganisms that produce lactic acid more. EM is made by culture in liquid medium was acidic pH of 4.5. The number of microorganisms retained the same as above, ie 1 billion per gram of fluid.
That’s the main difference between EM1, EM2, EM3, and EM4. So in principle, the differences caused by the content of microorganisms of each type of EM is. The one that mostly used in Asia to boost farming and fisheries is the EM4.
https://permaculturenews.org/forums/inde ... -em.12409/

It is from a permaculture forum and the article is about how to make your own EM blends.
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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

Oh cool! Thanks for researching this @rainbowgardener! Definitely bookmarking to read in detail later. :D
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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

@ Applestar: you have done Bokashi fermenting and I haven't. Can you say more about what the outputs of a Bokashi bin are? When the fermenting process is done, what do you have, assuming what you put in there was kitchen scraps and such like? Is it ready to use as a soil amendment or do you still have to do some aerobic process? What does it give off in the way of liquids and gases and what solids are left at the end?

For turning your kitchen scraps in to soil amendment, do you need to add any "browns" as you would in composting, with the scraps?

Note to Tcomponent: Your containers look very large. Bokashi fermenting with the EM is an anaerobic process. I saw one place where some one asked about doing Bokashi in a large container, where there would still be a lot of air space inside the container once the fermentable materials were added. The response was that then you should put some kind of lid or something inside the container, on top of the stuff you are fermenting, to separate it from the air space.
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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

Aerobic chemical processess require oxygen. When oxygen is limited, and organizms still have to fuel the the krebs cycle to produce energy they will use anaerobic processes by getting oxygen (atomic oxygen)from the breakdown of nitrites and sulfites leading to the unpleasant odors that are associated with it.
I found this while researching. It was a good example of how to make different kinds of compost and included one on anaerobic compost (the bag method).

https://extension.oregonstate.edu/lincol ... browns.pdf

Got a question:
Could that bin system work,
1. there was the right mix of browns and greens in the composter = adding newspaper, bark chips to the kitchen greens? It would absorb some of the excess moisture and cut down on the slime.
2. If the container was vented. Would removing the lid a couple of times a day to add more things to the composter infiltrate enough air?
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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

@applestar
@rainbowgarderner
@imafan26
Thank you very much for your answers.

Inside Composter 1.jpg
Inside Composter 1.jpg
Still empty? Yeah, right. Haven't bought the bcp (bio active compound), yet.
Got to go to the church. Better wait till Sunday.
Last edited by tcomponent on Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

rainbowgardener wrote:@ Applestar: you have done Bokashi fermenting and I haven't. Can you say more about what the outputs of a Bokashi bin are? When the fermenting process is done, what do you have, assuming what you put in there was kitchen scraps and such like? Is it ready to use as a soil amendment or do you still have to do some aerobic process? What does it give off in the way of liquids and gases and what solids are left at the end?

For turning your kitchen scraps in to soil amendment, do you need to add any "browns" as you would in composting, with the scraps?
I used a plate and plastic bag to exclude and press air out of the contents while the container was still being filled which took about a week to two weeks unless we were making a big meal for a gathering. If you neglect to do this, mold tends to find a way to proliferate in the empty space of the bucket. To me, each time I opened it to add more, the contents smelled like sauerkraut, Asian rice bran pickles and Kimchee, which I think came from the lacto-fermenting microbes. That's the best I can describe the "gasses".

Although you can make your own out of doubled buckets, I had a commercial Bokashi bucket with a drainage riser and spigot on the bottom to drain out the excess liquid that forms as by-product -- I assume the drainage hose on the pictured container is for that purpose. It's a good idea to secure that closed somehow because fruit flies and fungus gnats would try to get in. I regularly soap washed the spigot area to keep them under control because some would manage to lay eggs in the residue.

In terms of final product, I'm trying to remember -- I haven't done this for a couple of years because one of my DD's absolutely hates vinegar and pickle odor and said the smell of Bokashi was unbearable, although I always thought it smelled yummy.... I do remember one bucket I had to dispose of before fermentation was complete due to extreme complaints from the DD, and I ended up putting in the unfinished Bokashi fermented scraps in the frozen winter compost pile outside, which very quickly heated up in the next few days.

I think I put another bucket in the garage for the duration of the winter which slowed down the process, but once the forgotten reservoir was drained in Spring and the finished product -- which was a bit soaked -- was allowed to drain properly, it was like moistened compost but I think much more concentrated (Nitrogen rich), and I believe I spread that out and let it dry to barely moist and used like fertilizer in small amounts around plants and in planting holes.

In terms of "browns", the Bokashi Inoculant is made of bran so you would be adding handfuls to a cup of the stuff in each layer, but the rest of the ingredients I used were "greens" and I also added things like eggshells, bones, and cheese rinds.

I'm concentrating on vermicomposting this winter, Bokashi is better in warmer temps than in my garage. I might start a batch in the garage once it warms up a bit in spring, then I would have a good compost activator to give the pile outside a boost this spring and get it going faster.
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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

Ooh! @tcomponent -- you posted the photos of the interior of the bins while I was writing the previous post! 8) Thanks so much! :D
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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

I'm sure I have uploaded the zoomed picture of my bin.
Inside Composter 2.jpg

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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

So, based on the design of my composter bin.
1. Is this an anaerobic composting?
2. And we have to introduce bio active bacteria, EM4, to prevent stinks odor and help speed up anaerobic process?
3. But this composter bin produces heat. Is this still anaerobic composting?

Thanks for any help.

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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

A quick answer because I have to go --- Bokashi - EM fermentation -- produces heat. It can get almost hot on top of the bin when they are actively fermenting. I think the gasses they produce (like bubbling yeast/bread dough and fermenting pickles) would drive or combine with existing oxygen.

The bottom mesh/grid and riser is consistent with my Bokashi container. Are those small drilled holes to the outside in the lowest part of the container? That's the part I'm not sure of.
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Re: Aerobic and anaerobic composting.

Thanks rainbowgardener
Thanks applestar
Thanks imafan26
for your invaluable answers.

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