heating up compost without manure, possible ?!?!?

[rainbowgardener]

RE : "that how come a green material like grass clippings or stinging nettle that are generally wet can heat up a pile ?!! I thought browns what makes a pile heat, aren't greens juicy ?!

Sorry, you have it all backwards. Yes greens are juicy (as I said soft/wet). But GREENS are what heat up your pile through the nitrogen decomposition. Browns slow it down.

Here's a nice article about home composting http://urbanext.illinois.edu/compost/process.cfm It notes:

If the pile has more brown organic materials, it may take longer to compost. You can speed up the process by adding more green materials or a fertilizer with nitrogen (use one cup per 25 square feet).

When they say speed up as in finish faster, it also means heat up. But if you have plenty of GREENS, you shouldn't need to add fertilizer.

And re: "RainbowGardener, are you saying that leaves that the citrus tree drops are still considered as greens ?! Sorry I meant Loquat tree fallen leaves that have brownish color "

COLOR has nothing to do with whether something is a "brown" or a "green." Like I said before manure is a green. Whether your loquat leaves are brown or green depends partly on the process. Like I said, deciduous trees that drop their leaves in fall, reclaim the nitrogen and other nutrients before they let go of them, so what is left is mostly the carbon structure of the leaves. It is the same difference between hay (a "green") and straw (a "brown"). Both of them are stems of grain plants, it could be the same kind of plants. But hay is cut while the plant is still green and growing. Straw is cut after the plant is finished, when it has reclaimed the nutrients and dried out.

So what makes compost piles hotter is: oxygen (which is why we turn it, sounds like you are doing plenty of that), smaller particle size (which lets more surface be exposed to the oxygen, it's why you are chopping things, sounds like you are doing plenty of that), more "greens," and moisture.

We haven't talked about that. If you are in a warm dry climate, you may need to water your compost pile. I water mine, any time it is dry enough that I need to water the plants. The compost pile shouldn't be wet or soggy, but it should stay just damp, all the way through. If it completely dries out, it stops composting and just sits there. Not a disaster, as soon as the rain comes back it starts working again.

The other thing a compost pile needs are the micro-organisms that do the composting work. Someone mentioned compost starter earlier. That's what compost starter is. But the micro-organisms are present in any healthy soil that hasn't been treated with chemicals. So if you just scatter a handful of soil over the pile now and then when you are adding things, it may help. It doesn't take much, I really mean handfuls, not bucket fulls.

Re your parents: It is NOT a trash pile! Trash is what goes to landfill, mainly plastic. It is a compost pile, full of wonderful rich organic materials, that are going to turn in to a beautiful soil amendment. In my mind, that is the "magic" of compost -- all those kitchen scraps that might have gone down the garbage disposal turning themselves into rich black crumbly sweet smelling earth. Doesn't matter how fast or hot it works, it is still garden magic!

[Bobberman]

One of the cheapest things you can add to a compost to add nitrogen is Urea. Agway sells it by the pound really cheap like a $1 a pound. Just a hand full is plenty for a compost> Its just like throwing salt on ice. That is all osmacote is made up of and marked way up in price just for the coating over the urea. Urea is pure white and heats up a compost fast. Too much will kill the bacteria so use it in small amounts!

Ammonia is a by product of a urine type additive. Cow and horse manure in a barn has a ammonia smell and can cause fires if heaped up with a pile of straw. That is a very hot compost! They inject ammonia into the ground in areas where tomatoes is a main product.! A large pile of mushroom manure when first mixed with manure will give of a lot of steam for a week or more till it cools and them is used to grow mushrooms! The brown in mushroom manure is usually peat or ground up corn stocks or cobs and straw..

[Pathfinder]

when grass clippings turn from green to yellow in the compost pile do they become browns or still greens heating the pile ?!

here's a few pics of my compost pile (click to zoom), sorry if they offend you, tell me what you think/suggest:

[Pathfinder]

@rainbowgardner, thanks for your last input, plenty of info in your post indeed, helped me visualize things now.
yeah I can smell little ammonia odor from the pile, earth like smell nothing irritating.

Finally my mom gave up, every time she prepares food to eat, she puts the scraps in a bag and throw it in my face and I thank her for it .. lol, I even noticed there's no foul odor coming from the kitchen anymore ^___^ that's how I convinced her.

@Bobberman, I don't want to use manure whatsoever, don't want to raise suspicion and I have plenty of access to grass.

is it better to put the greens in the center of the pile or on top of the pile to make em heat quicker ?! right now I just mix them

[rainbowgardener]

It is a very small pile and hard to get a pile that small to heat up. Look around for more materials. Often Starbucks or other places that serve coffee will give away their used coffee grounds for free. Since "green" and "brown" in composting have nothing to do with color, coffee grounds are a green and high in nitrogen. And whatever color your grass is, it is still "green."

It helps to have some kind of containment to keep your pile piled. This can be a simple wire circle like this:


http://cultivatorscorner.com/wp-content ... st-bin.jpg

or any kind of a frame:


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lOGenyhzMwE/T ... Closed.JPG

But having it contained, allows it to be piled up more, which allows it to heat up in the center more.

I would take the tarp off, since what heats it up is contact with air/oxygen.

Mixing is good.

[Bobberman]

4 - 4 foot pellets make a nice compost. They throw them away behind lots of stores like Big Lots.

[rainbowgardener]

pallets

[Bobberman]

Ya Pallets. You can put chicken wire around the pellets and you will be surprised how nice peas or climbing beans grow around your compost! If you take 6 pallets you can make a hexagon of pretty nice size that looks good also!

[rainbowgardener]

Yeah, but if you look at pathfinder's pics, he (?) does not want "nice size;" he wants small. Pathfinder needs a compost bin that can be made small enough to contain his little bit of compostables and keep them piled up. Wire is more flexible for that than pallets, which are the size they are, period.

[Bobberman]

Wire is fine and it does work great. Actually the pallets can be cut in half and make a smaller compost or one not as high! The problem with pallets as with all wood it will rot in 4 or 5 years then you can burn them and get some wood ash compost! Even a 50 gallon drum plastic or metal will also work and that also can be cut in half to make one 2 feet high! The drum can be set up on a few bricks so you can shovel the composted finished mix out from the bottom! Some people like to use a 50 gallon drum sealed with lid and turn it over every other week! Adding a small amount of garden soil will make it work faster and give a better working mix! Pine needles are also good for aeration!

[Pathfinder]

thanks for the input, I'm a he by the way, and thanks for bringing up the aeration issue, which is what I have been thinking about those couple of days, I think this will be the last bogus issue for me.

If oxygen contact what makes the pile heat up and compost work faster then it is better to keep it uncovered.
The cover, I think is only for worms right ?! even though each time, I bump into one, I bring it and put it on my compost pile then put the cover because worms need darkness.

Bu then again, worms do not break the compost, they eat the scraps and throw castings right ?

I was thinking about the method, raibowgardener posted in the first pic, though I bump into pallets a lot whenever I go.

[rainbowgardener]

I don't know what the cover is for, since I don't use one. Some people might cover their pile, if it is open to the rain and they are getting lots and lots of rain, keep it from getting waterlogged or washed out.

But the worms don't need it. They like darkness, but they just burrow in to the middle of the pile and are fine.

Re: " worms do not break the compost, they eat the scraps and throw castings right " I don't know what break the compost means, but yes they are part of the composting process, they eat the organic stuff, not only kitchen scraps, but anything else soft (green leaves) in there, they aerate the pile by moving around in it making tunnels, they mix stuff together and they throw castings.

But they are opposite goals. If you really get your compost cooking, it will be too hot for the worms. It's ok, as long as your pile is sitting on the ground, the worms will just go down in to the cool ground and come back when the pile cools down.

[Pathfinder]

I went to add some egg cartons today to my pile for browns and I found out a lot of ants in my compost pile.
I think my pile isn't hot enough and the ants are stealing the scraps instead of being composted.
I also found a snail moving to hide inside the pile and something tiny and green I thought it was a snake cause it moves in an unusual way (vertical loop arc shape) as if it was taking steps maybe it is a different type of worm ?! very tiny and thin, I got worried so I dropped it from my finger

[rainbowgardener]

The ants probably can't steal enough of the scraps to make a difference. But their presence their suggests the pile is not hot and is staying pretty moist. If you just turn/mix the pile, they will probably go away.

Your worm is one of these little guys?


http://humanitreeservice.com/wp-content ... s/2012/04/inchworm.jpg

they are the caterpillar of a moth in the Geometer family.

Just another little worm in your compost pile. They eat leaves and grasses and veggies. With all this life in your pile, things will get composted, whether or not the pile ever heats up.

I think the biggest single factor for getting it to heat up is that you would just need a lot more volume of materials. Sometimes that is easier in the spring. Do you have a garden? Will you have pulled weeds, grass clippings, yard trimmings etc? If you have a bunch of that kind of stuff, and you find a good source of browns to go with them, presto! large compost pile. I collect bags of fall leaves to last through the winter and spring. When that runs out, I buy one bale of straw. So if you don't have the leaves, you could just get a bale of straw.

[Pathfinder]

I couldn't agree more on the volume because I think the C:N ratio I already put into that small pile of mine is near 30:1 but still there's no heat, I put my finger and I can feel no heat, yet the volume shrinks but really slowly, I even didn't water it but a few drops.

So I decided, to build a bin around my small pile that looks like yours using "canes" in order to get the hot composting going on, I never though 4x4x4 would be that big of a space, haven't filled it yet but I am thinking if I am going to fill it, how will I be able to turn such a huge heap without scattering the materials around.

If you notice in my previous pics there's a tree and this is the only possible location I can build a 4x4x4 however the direct sun doesn't get there because of the tree and the building behind it, the location is bright during the day but no direct sun light. will that be an issue related to heating even when having 4x4x4 ?!

thanks

yes a worm like this one, I thought it was a snake lol ... but it was more tiny than the one in the pic