Is it Green or Brown?

[greenstubbs]

I hope this will make sense. I have done tons of homework and can't come up with a answer to this puzzling question.
Fresh cut lawn grass is green of couse, but when it dies after being cut it turns brown. The grass in the pile turns to brown after being cut, so what is it? The same question holds true for trees. If I pick every green leaf off a tree and throw them into the pile, they are green. BUT, in the fall when they are dry and brown/dead, their classified as brown. But wait, they were green, how can this be that a green is now a brown and the ratio has changed between the two? Am I missing something? Discuss

[john gault]

I'm very interested to see some answers on this, because it's a question that goes around-and-around in my head as well.

I have a bad habit of collecting weeds (actually they're just baby trees, mostly from the magnolia) in my mulched area and then put them under the mulch as opposed to just dropping them on top the mulch. That way, in my way of thinking (rightly or wrongly), the extra nitrogen is more available to the soil organisms. Whereas if I were to just drop them on top of the mulch they'd dry out, thereby lowering the nitrogen level by the time the leaf (or any green yardwaste) makes its way down to the bottom of the mulch where the organisms start the decay process. Am I wasting my time

But why is it that a green leaf has more nitrogen in it than a leaf (or any green plant) that has turned brown, simply due to dehydration?

[gixxerific]

Still green!

Look here https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9089

[greenstubbs]

Still green!

Look here https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9089

Ok, that makes some sense, but it doesn't. Guess I need a PHD in composting to really understand it. Guess I'll continue doing what I've been doing as I haven't had any problems yet. Like I've said, "it's the grand experiment", and I'll add, if it works good use it!

[gixxerific]

The thing to remember is compost happens. Just look at mother nature. You can make it as easy or as hard as you want.

But in the end "compost happens".

[Binkalette]

My understanding is that if it was "green" when you cut it, it remains green after drying. If you rake up brown leaves in the fall (they have died and turned brown on the tree and fallen off) they are browns.

[john gault]

My understanding is that if it was "green" when you cut it, it remains green after drying. If you rake up brown leaves in the fall (they have died and turned brown on the tree and fallen off) they are browns.

Yes, I've read that and I think it's a pretty good rule of thumb, but doesn't really explain much. What's curious is that the C:N ratio changes for things that were once green and then turns brown, so somethings do change from a "green" to a "brown" (and I know color has nothing to do with it). So in other words, if I pick a green leaf off a tree and let it sit in the sun there's really no microbial action happening, because they basically don't like the sun, but the leaf does dehydrate and that process changes the C:N ratio

Here's in this link it illustrates how a green leaf has a much higher concentration of nitrogen vs. a brown leaf. https://www.compostinfo.com/tutorial/GreensAndBrowns.htm And I've read this else where, but don't really understand how this happens?

Edit: On this page it lists leaves as having a C:N ratio of 60:1, however, it lists Green Oak Leaves as having a ratio of 26:1. And grass clippings a 20:1 ratio, but it doesn't mention if that is green grass or dehydrated grass...just leaves questions.... https://www.compostinfo.com/tutorial/ElementOfComposting.htm#CNRatio

[Binkalette]

Yeaaaa.. my compost pile isn't an exact science. I throw stuff in, it turns to dirt, and that's that.

[john gault]

Me too. I just like to ask stupid questions

[rainbowgardener]

No jg.. not at all stupid questions! You clearly just like to think things through and ask the next question. We are often not used to that, since typically people ask the first question and then leave...

I'm thinking (and this is speculation!) that the difference is in what was said about whether it was green when collected. Like the grass that was cut green. Grass clippings are "green" (we do need better terms for that, not so associated with color) even after they have dried and turned tan, because the nitrogen in it did not go away.

But when leaves stay on the tree, the TREE reabsorbs a lot of the nutrients from the leaves before it lets go of them, being thrifty and not in to waste. That's part of why they turn color... They were green from chlorophyll, but then the tree sucks the chlorophyll back and all the colors that were there all along are revealed. But the tree also reabsorbs other nutrients that it can use. The carbon is part of the "bony" structure of the leaf and is not reabsorbed.

So that changes what was a green leaf, also green for composting purposes, to a red/gold or whatever leaf that is now a brown for composting purposes.

[greenstubbs]

The majority of my compost has been lawn grass, and after a week or so the top of it has turned brown while the grass that shaded under the top layer is still somewhat green. I have websites as well that talk about CN ratios and all, but it's something that I though about and here I am with the subject. As whoever said, throw stuff in, it turns to dirt. It's not rocket science.

[rainbowgardener]

It's not rocket science, but there is some science to it and that says a compost pile that is mostly all grass clippings (very green for compost purposes regardless of what color it is at the moment), is more likely to mat down and turn slimy and stinky than become good compost. Mix some browns into it, shredded paper or straw or sawdust or whatever you have and you will get a much better product.

You don't have to get all involved with C:N ratios etc, but you do have to keep a basic greens/browns mix.

[greenstubbs]

a compost pile that is mostly all grass clippings (very green for compost purposes regardless of what color it is at the moment), is more likely to mat down and turn slimy and stinky than become good compost. Mix some browns into it, shredded paper or straw or sawdust or whatever you have and you will get a much better product.
You don't have to get all involved with C:N ratios etc, but you do have to keep a basic greens/browns mix.

In 9 years, I've never had a problem with slimy compost using grass, let alone using it for seed starting or in my crop containers & garden. This year I got a truck load of Horse dung from a buddy and have been mixing that in when I cut the lawn and turn & water it. I'm debating on another truck load and just dump it in the garden this fall. He's got 9 horse's so there no problem with a shortage there.

[2cents]

GS,
horse manure is a terriffic additive to compost.
there are a few warnings before putting them directly into the garden
#1, horses don't digest all the seeds and they germinate in the garden...more weed pulling.
#2, some of the chemicals they give horses can have a negative affect on soil microbes.

Dad used horse pooh for decades, but put it on top of fall leaves, then rye seed. By doing it early enough in the fall the seeds either germinated in the fall or spring. He turned it in the spring. The first 10 +/- yrs he roto tilled till there was no seed left to germinate.

[john gault]

GS,
By doing it early enough in the fall the seeds either germinated in the fall or spring. He turned it in the spring. The first 10 +/- yrs he roto tilled till there was no seed left to germinate.

If I'm understanding you correctly your father's method is basically my method. I don't deweed per se, I either compost them allowing the seeds to germinate and then turn it into the pile. Plenty of nitrogen that way. I also sometimes just pull them and shove them under the mulch, again nitrogen that eventually gets back in the soil. The aggressiveness of the weed determines if I just turn it into the mulch or compost it.

[greenstubbs]

My big problem here is this yr. my onions & beets has major league grass that I've never had before. It's just in 1 corner and nowhere else, drivin me nuts trying to keep it in check! The dude I got the dung from dumped hills of it in his garden, and I'm really jealous of his onions, there huge. By seeing that I think he broke the code that I'll have to try next year. He's got tons of it and no problem wanting to get rid of it.