-- excellent idea, too to link it here. 
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The Helpful Gardener
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AS, you might ask Rog to sticky the Sewer Sludge post rot linked to; I would be happy to ellucidate what I do know...
rot, I am not at all sure what Joe is proposing, let alone whether or not it is a good idea. Any carniverous/omniverous animal is going to excrete prions. While Joe's methodology at least allows for dispersal at the user level (avoiding the prionic concentration issue as much as possible; a good thing, I'll admit), I don't think we know enough about this issue yet to make a call. The science is just not gelled yet...
What I DO think (my hunch, in other words) is the best possibilities lie in anaerobic digestion with effective microbes, followed by mycoremediation. While we still don't have complete understandings of either of these two systems, we do know that they are both powerful natural tools in remediating toxins in soils. I believe this type of system needs real science thrown at it (instead of vague ramblings from some poseur with a web site... ).
HG
rot, I am not at all sure what Joe is proposing, let alone whether or not it is a good idea. Any carniverous/omniverous animal is going to excrete prions. While Joe's methodology at least allows for dispersal at the user level (avoiding the prionic concentration issue as much as possible; a good thing, I'll admit), I don't think we know enough about this issue yet to make a call. The science is just not gelled yet...
What I DO think (my hunch, in other words) is the best possibilities lie in anaerobic digestion with effective microbes, followed by mycoremediation. While we still don't have complete understandings of either of these two systems, we do know that they are both powerful natural tools in remediating toxins in soils. I believe this type of system needs real science thrown at it (instead of vague ramblings from some poseur with a web site...
).HG
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gixxerific
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So how did we get here from "ashes in the compost"? 
Anyways thanks for opening my eyes to this. I just read rots links and all the links that brought up. I won't be going back to get compost from there again. Which really is a bummer since it was so cheap. There are several other places around here that have (I believe) straight up compost. some are nursery's there are a few tree removal business that take all there cuttings and make compost as well, thing is they are more expensive, but I guess that is how it will be. I still need to go talk to the cattle farmer that is literally the next road down from me if they have any manure/compost available.
About mycoremediation is it a good or bad sign to have mushrooms pop up all over. Last year they were everywhere in my garden and my lawn?
Anyways thanks for opening my eyes to this. I just read rots links and all the links that brought up. I won't be going back to get compost from there again. Which really is a bummer since it was so cheap. There are several other places around here that have (I believe) straight up compost. some are nursery's there are a few tree removal business that take all there cuttings and make compost as well, thing is they are more expensive, but I guess that is how it will be. I still need to go talk to the cattle farmer that is literally the next road down from me if they have any manure/compost available.
About mycoremediation is it a good or bad sign to have mushrooms pop up all over. Last year they were everywhere in my garden and my lawn?
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The Helpful Gardener
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Mushrooms usually send gardeners running for the lime, but the are simplly the fruiting bodies of vast mycelial nets that can go for miles.
Some of these CAN be tree pathogens (if you see little mushrooms sprouting around the base of a tree, or worse yet, a conk growing out of a tree, it is a sure sign there is some infection of said tree). That said, many fungal infections can live in trees for decades without becoming pathogenic.
The other thing to remember is trees falling down and rotting (the rotting being accomplished almost ENTIRELY by fungii) is how Nature builds soil and fertility in the wild. These organisms are part and parcel of the natural cycle; mankind cannot simply pick and choose what parts of it he likes. As soon as we interrupt any one part of this cycle, we disturb the whole thing. Besides, the stuff we do use to combat mushrooms is usually damaging across a wide spectrum of mushrooms, not disease specific. You cannot use shotgun approaches and not expect further issues caused by the gaping holes you just punched in the soil food web.
To bring this back to thread point, fire has been a natural way of returning trees to the soil since there was trees. The other method, for time immemorial, has been fungii (the other beauty of interlocking natural systems is you can always find a way to get back on topic without playing 7 Degrees Of Kevin Bacon. )
HG
Some of these CAN be tree pathogens (if you see little mushrooms sprouting around the base of a tree, or worse yet, a conk growing out of a tree, it is a sure sign there is some infection of said tree). That said, many fungal infections can live in trees for decades without becoming pathogenic.
The other thing to remember is trees falling down and rotting (the rotting being accomplished almost ENTIRELY by fungii) is how Nature builds soil and fertility in the wild. These organisms are part and parcel of the natural cycle; mankind cannot simply pick and choose what parts of it he likes. As soon as we interrupt any one part of this cycle, we disturb the whole thing. Besides, the stuff we do use to combat mushrooms is usually damaging across a wide spectrum of mushrooms, not disease specific. You cannot use shotgun approaches and not expect further issues caused by the gaping holes you just punched in the soil food web.
To bring this back to thread point, fire has been a natural way of returning trees to the soil since there was trees. The other method, for time immemorial, has been fungii (the other beauty of interlocking natural systems is you can always find a way to get back on topic without playing 7 Degrees Of Kevin Bacon.
)HG
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rot
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HG, elucidate away. Please.
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My point about sewer sludge vs humanure was driving at the issue of the difference between what's in a sewer vs what comes directly out of us before it goes into the sewer.
We have to expect that anything and everything ends up in the sewer from toothpaste to drain cleaner to antibiotics to heavy metals. Composting what comes out of a sewer has to be considered in the context of what goes in then comes out. What comes out of us, before it goes into the sewer, was food safe at one point, ostensibly, and far different than what comes out of the sewer.
Forgive me if I seemed to suggest that we could just compost sewer sludge into something benign. Still, I wonder, would there be benefit to composting sewer sludge.
I would suggest, however, that sewers are a 19th century solution that is fast becoming a 21st century problem. Let's see, throw in everything that the 21st century throws into a sewer and see what grows. I'm betting whatever it is will be super resistant to anything we can throw at it since we already did when throwing it in the sewer.
Whatever survives or thrives in a sewer is going to be resistant to most of our antibiotics because we've already deposited most of our antibiotics into the sewer systems.
Beyond what Joe Jenkins offers, composting what comes out of us directly, what other alternatives to sewer systems do we have? Septic tanks? I'll let you argue that EM method with the local surfers 'round here that are getting mighty fed up with infections from a day at the beach.
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Wouldn't we be better off if our night soil (ignoring sewer sludge) was composted as opposed to the way it is now, uncomposted?
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to sense
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HG, elucidate away. Please.
..
My point about sewer sludge vs humanure was driving at the issue of the difference between what's in a sewer vs what comes directly out of us before it goes into the sewer.
We have to expect that anything and everything ends up in the sewer from toothpaste to drain cleaner to antibiotics to heavy metals. Composting what comes out of a sewer has to be considered in the context of what goes in then comes out. What comes out of us, before it goes into the sewer, was food safe at one point, ostensibly, and far different than what comes out of the sewer.
Forgive me if I seemed to suggest that we could just compost sewer sludge into something benign. Still, I wonder, would there be benefit to composting sewer sludge.
I would suggest, however, that sewers are a 19th century solution that is fast becoming a 21st century problem. Let's see, throw in everything that the 21st century throws into a sewer and see what grows. I'm betting whatever it is will be super resistant to anything we can throw at it since we already did when throwing it in the sewer.
Whatever survives or thrives in a sewer is going to be resistant to most of our antibiotics because we've already deposited most of our antibiotics into the sewer systems.
Beyond what Joe Jenkins offers, composting what comes out of us directly, what other alternatives to sewer systems do we have? Septic tanks? I'll let you argue that EM method with the local surfers 'round here that are getting mighty fed up with infections from a day at the beach.
..
Wouldn't we be better off if our night soil (ignoring sewer sludge) was composted as opposed to the way it is now, uncomposted?
..
to sense
..
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rainbowgardener
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Interesting, directly beneath rot's post when I scrolled down (below the books) was an ad for composting toilet. I used to have one when I lived on a 5 acre property and I do believe it's what we should all be doing.
Not only does it save the "night soil" to be returned to the land, but it uses no water. We flush vast quantities of drinking quality water down our toilets in order to rid ourselves of good organic humanure.
Not only does it save the "night soil" to be returned to the land, but it uses no water. We flush vast quantities of drinking quality water down our toilets in order to rid ourselves of good organic humanure.
We have installed a compost toilet in our guest cabin here at the lake and it works like a charm but to this point we have not emptied it. When we do empty it I know for certain I will not put it into our food gardens. I may use it around rose bushes and that sort of thing but not anywhere that I'll be digging with my bare hands for a long time.
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The Helpful Gardener
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While Timlin's take may seem timid, I think with the lack of knowledge on prionic infection, it just makes sense. On the flower beds, the shrubs and trees, even golf courses, or turf not destined for toddlers and tootsies; s'all good, but we should not be guinea-pigging out on food raised with this stuff...
HG
HG
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Gary350
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If you mix a hand full of ammonium nitrate with a 5 gallon bucket of organic material then add enough water to make it all wet, put a piece of plywood on top of the bucket for a lid and come back tomorrow. It will have a very strong ammonia gas smell. Wood ash has nothing to do with making ammonia gas.Sage Hermit wrote:-Do not add ash with nitrogen fertilizers such as ammonium sulfate (21-0-0-24S), urea (46-0-0) or ammonium nitrate (34-0-0). These fertilizers produce ammonia gas when placed in contact with high pH materials such as wood ash.
Last edited by Gary350 on Mon May 03, 2010 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Helpful Gardener
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No that's true...
The wood ash can make phosgene, an even more toxic gas...
Fukuoka-sensei talks about how he thought there would be no issue with spreading a little wood ash, but when he did it dissolved all the spider webs and the leaf hoppers damages his rice crop without the insect predators to control them...
We are always sure we are right about these things and we rarely are... we are for the most part uninformed about the realities of soil, nature and the ecosystems around us, and much of what we have been doing for decades, even centuries, is counterproductive... I put some ash in my compost, but I am done puttingash in soils directly. Char is one thing, ash is another...
HG
The wood ash can make phosgene, an even more toxic gas...
Fukuoka-sensei talks about how he thought there would be no issue with spreading a little wood ash, but when he did it dissolved all the spider webs and the leaf hoppers damages his rice crop without the insect predators to control them...
We are always sure we are right about these things and we rarely are... we are for the most part uninformed about the realities of soil, nature and the ecosystems around us, and much of what we have been doing for decades, even centuries, is counterproductive... I put some ash in my compost, but I am done puttingash in soils directly. Char is one thing, ash is another...
HG