Aerated Compost Tea

[gixxerific]

Don't be hard on yourself we are all learning here.

But I believe what the theory on the same fungal treatment would coincide with human disease. Take the flu virus you give millions of people the same vaccine against the same strain of virus eventually the virus will evolve to where it is not affected or as effected. Same with the evolution of a species after a while it will evolve to overcome hardships. Hope this makes sense.

Oh and about the times there was basically 3 times to let it go. I don't have time right now (working on this deck next door) but can't remember off hand but at different time limits encouraged different types of teas. One was more microbial one was more fungal and the other can't quite remember but get he idea. Hope you understand and hope I explained it at least half right.

Thanks for your help, after I get this going I"ll be able to help you and the circle begins.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Wow did this heat up fast...

O.K., here goes...

The sugar thing. SImple sugars are best; that's why we use molasses instead of more refined stuff. I was experimenting with a dried honey and getting good results, but way more expensive. And molasses doesn't make it foam (we see foam on surf and in rapids, right? Not a drop of the stuff in sight ). Molasses is an excellent bacterial food, which makes LOTS of proteins and THAT'S what foams. Yucca and saponins are also famous for foaming; if it get's to be an issue, just a wee drop of EVOO smooths the roiled waters...

Corn stimulates a specific fungus (Trichoderma) which in itself is antifungal. Like I said, fungus is the hard part in teamaking, so I'd skip the corn in the tea and do that directly on the leaves ONLY when I saw fungal issues. Trichoderma can be pretty aggressive and non-specific; it eats everything. I discussed this species with Dr. Ingham as an anti-fungal and her comment was she didn't like relying on any one organism for anything; a balanced ecosystem is what we are striving towards, so ANY dominant organism is a bad thing (Human beings, take note... ). THIS is why I like switching up and changing things; remeber the old lady who swallowed the fly? Let's be sure we don't have to get to swallowing horses, right?

Fish emulsion and hydrolysate are not really the same thing; emulsions are just ground up fish guts and bones. Hydrolysates start there, but use enzymes to further the breakdown and make a finer, more stable product (mineral contents from bones and such is more readily available). Cold processing is another key thing to look for; many of these products (emulsions AND hydrolysates) are by products of other industries, and a lot of the time there is cooking involved which makes things seperate a LOT more. I found an inexpensive hydrolysate from dogfish, but further investigation found they were cooking it to extract the shark cartilage, and it broke down way too fast and got stinky a LOT quicker, as well as being pretty oily, which doesn't help the tea one bit either. Cold processed is better for everybody, nose included...

Timing your tea; sorry to disagree with T$, but over 36 hours has been shown in the lab (Dr. Ingham's lab, among others) to gain nothing and often allow for food, or worse yet, oxygen depletion. In some cases there may be benefits (hard to extract foodstocks), but I have done hundreds, nay thousands of tea quality assessments under a microscope and 36 hours is almost always optimal, no matter what the recipe. Rolling a little of the last batch into a new one can be beneficial and I DID read a white paper about long brewing, actually letting it get slightly anaerobic and bringing it back to widen the facultative anaerobe population, but that's a little advanced for those without the professional tools to assess it and I wouldn't recommend it for home gardener's (if the tea goes bad, don't use it in the garden, dump it on the compost and turn it. The pile will sort things out...)

Stella, not surprised to hear you say tea is the difference between so-so and excellent gardens; it is the difference between so-so and excellent soil, or leaf colonies, or rhizospheres. It is Mother Nature's littlest helpers in vast quantity, and SHE knows what she is doing, unlike the rest of us. So you don't need to know the whys or hows; it just does it the way Mother has done it for millions of years. And YOU helped...

Go forth and spread tea...

S

[stella1751]

Gix, on page 1 of this thread, Applestar posted a hyperlink to a discussion she had last year about ACT in the permaculture forum. The hyperlink to that discussion is

http://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9219

There are two great hyperlinks within this hyperlink that I found to be terrifically informative:

1) http://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9219

This one was about purchasing a compost brewer, but there was a tiny section in there that I found fascinating. It follows:

Alternatively, you can design your own tea recipe, but this will take some testing to make sure you are NOT adding too much food, and reducing oxygen, through the growth of the beneficial organisms, below aerobic levels. Foods that should be considered are:
 a diversity of sugars for bacterial growth, but realize that often the compost itself contains adequate bacterial foods to grow a great set of bacteria. Addition of more bacterial foods can just cause problems.
 Citric acid to help buffer pH to the right level, as well as feeding beneficial bacteria
 Cold-water kelp (higher in nutrients) to serve as a source of micro-nutrients (K, Co, B, etc, please check the label of the product you buy to make sure you are adding micronutrients you need. How do you know micronutrients are needed? A soil chemistry, or plant tissue test might be a good idea)
 Humic acids fro fungal growth, but realize that you want data to show you that this material can actually help grow fungi. Harsh extractants can make the humic materials very difficult for fungi, or anything else, to use.

I kind of sort of remembered as Applestar saying brown sugar was okay. (Hey, if I live long enough, she might say it! Who can know what the future holds?) GREAT list of ingredients, BTW, and verification of your thinking that corn syrup could be substituted for molasses

Talk to me, someone, please, about citric acids. Would this be like organic orange juice?

[top_dollar_bread]

Stella your on point with time of brewing, brew times can help breed a more diverse micro heard in tea’s but brewing for a long time will make a put-to-sleep tea.
Meaning many of the organisms in the tea have went dormant or died off.
(HG your right, over 36 hours, should be done by professionals with proper tools but I have to disagree on gaining nothing???)
explain more please

http://www.soilfoodweb.com/03_about_us/approach_pgs/c_06_tea_definitions.html
here’s a link on tea definitions, by the great people at the soil food web

A short brew of around 12 hours will favor the growth of fungi, while a 24 hour brew will favor the growth of bacteria and a long brew of 36–48 hours will favor the growth of protozoa. Also that Molasses will promote the growth of bacteria and kelp and humic acid will promote the growth of fungi. Sphagnum peat moss or hay can be added as a source of protozoa, so there isn’t a real need to brew over 36 hours!!!

From page 2 of thread, taken form wikipedia

Here’s another interesting read
http://www.finegardening.com/how-to/articles/brewing-compost-tea.aspx
brewing compost tea by Elaine Ingham, president, soil foodweb inc

gix
other sugars like brown sugar can be added but molasses is recommended and has been the secret to many bottled organic fertilizers for years.

You see molasses isn’t just a sugar/carbohydrate, it contains a nice amount of potash, sulfur and a variety of micronutrients.
This is the main idea of adding molasses because a balance supply of mineral nutrients is essential for microorganisms to survive and thrive. Micronutrients found in organic amendments like molasses, kelp, buckwheat, comfrey and alfalfa are all derived from other plants and ther for quickly and easily available to our soil organisms and our plants. The micro herd in our tea’s/soil depend on tiny amounts of trace minerals as catalysts to help break down organic fertilizers to a form our plants can use.
Molasses also works as a chelate, chelates (like humic acid), are known for unlocking chemical nutrients into a form that is easily available for soil critters and plants. It is also said that chelated minerals also help gardeners make dramatic cuts in fertilizer application, by locking minerals in availed forms and preventing soil unbalances.

last time I quoted this book, the admin hit me up and deleted it, so im going take another route and give out a link on the book “The Soul of Soil: a soil-building guide for master gardners and famersâ€

[gixxerific]

Okay than way too much info I'm tired.

I said I saw about 5+ kinds of molasses at the store, one was unsulfered and there was a black strap version as well so next time I'm there.......

That whole thing on the timing is what I remember, I read that at Wikipedia myself it thought 36 was key for people like us.

[stella1751]

Sorry for overwhelming you, Gix. This compost tea excites zealotry. I suppose it's like being a reformed smoker; you want to convert everyone you see with a butt dangling from his or her lips

[gixxerific]

Sorry for overwhelming you, Gix. This compost tea excites zealotry. I suppose it's like being a reformed smoker; you want to convert everyone you see with a butt dangling from his or her lips

All I meant was way to much info to process since my my last post earlier today. What with all the links not including the ones you relinked which I have read several times. I will get back to it, never fear. I'm exausted and need sleep.

[applestar]

Man was I disappointed, I read my bottle and it said in fine print that this is vinegar flavored as apple cider..now I got me a bottle of stuff I don’t know what to do with.
I actually wanted to drink REAL apple cider vinegar for the health benefits and use for brewing tea’s but I guess not.

You can use it to help make GOOD ACV. So as not to contaminate this thread, I'll go into more details in this thread in Non-gardening Hoo-ha. Make your comments over there.

[tedln]

Hey folks,

I am following this thread, but enough information has been forthcoming that I don;t need to ask questions at this point. I will be purchasing some of the base products listed at my garden supply store this week and giving the ACT a try.

I am curious if anyone knows why the text on page five of this thread suddenly stopped auto wrapping. On my computer, all the text is single line requiring scrolling from left to right in order to read a comment. The first four pages remain in auto wrap mode with normal page width. All other threads are normal mode. Are others experiencing this?

Ted

[applestar]

Tedlin, I think it's the multi-line Googlebook Link. Some browsers can't handle that, though mine (Firefox v3.5.2 for Mac OSX) is working. I've edited it to embed the link. Let me know if this fixed the problem.

[tedln]

Thanks applestar,

That was it. I have Firefox on my laptop also. I never thought of switching over for this thread.

Ted

[tedln]

Can someone tell me a good reliable supplier of leonordite/humic acid. I would prefer to purchase it in small dry bulk quantities for my garden. My intention is to incorporate it in an ACT brew solution.

Apparently there is some disagreement between suppliers of humic acid derived from leonordite deposits in North Dakota and New Mexico with each claiming special organic attributes different from the other. The North Dakota producers claim their product also contains fulvic acid while the New Mexico product does not.

I've checked a few "organic" garden supply outlets with products called humates. The term humates really isn't very descriptive of the actual contents and the packages don't detail the origins of the humate.

I also don't like to buy products which claim to contain numerous benificial minerals and ingredients. In most cases the claimed ingredients are only in trace amounts.

Ted

[stella1751]

Tedlin, I live right in leonardite country, and I don't know how to get my hands on retail quantities of it. However, I found this website:

http://www.bhbentonite.com/lignite.html

Glenrock is about 20 miles southeast of me. This company says it is about 10 miles north of Glenrock. In this country (don't ask me to explain), that often means northwest. If that's the case, this company shouldn't be far from me. They don't say, though, whether they offer the product retail, but it does say they offer it in 50 lb bags. It might be worth some research. If you think it's worth it, I'll drive out there and ask some follow-up questions about possible distributors

BTW, I was very afraid when I planted my first garden up here in the Casper area. Driving around the outskirts of the city, I saw huge areas of foliage-free, salt-crusted land. I asked what the salt was and was told bentonite. Apparently, it builds up so high in the soil around here, you just can't flush it out.

While anyone else is considering Tedlin's question about leonardite, please consider my earlier one about citric acid. I've been researching this, and it appears that it can be chemically produced. I don't want that kind, so I'm thinking about getting some frozen orange juice concentrate and adding a TBSP of this to my next batch of tea.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Top $, it has been my experience that brewing over 36 hours is beneficial to higher lifeforms (protozoa in particular) at the expense of bacteria. I would rather get the balanced lot into the soil than lean heavily on predators that may imbalance the soil biology you introduce them to as well. The Serengeti only supports so many lions, so let's not wipe out our wildebeests...

If you were dealing with a highly bacterial soil, that might be beneficial, but why is it highly bacterial in the first place? Might be you are sending your protozoa to certain doom if you don't have that piece of information. Without exact answers to dozens of questions like that, the smart thing to do is start balanced and let Mother sort out who she keeps and who goes; that's the way it will end up in the long run anyhow. We can influence a little, but we don't get to choose. This is not about control of environment, it is about supplementing environment...

HG

[top_dollar_bread]

ahh, i see
wonderful explanation!!

This is not about control of environment, it is about supplementing environment...
HG

i 100% agree

stella
citric acid is usually sold in powder form, but naturally found in citrus fruits. Lemons and limes have high concentrations of citric acid, accounting for their bitter taste. Also oranges,tangerines,raspberries and blackberries.
i believe its used in tea's for its chelation abilities??

this is going to be a long one (sorry)

IMO dry leonordite is best used as a soil conditioner or to help build soil health. To me stable humus like humates (leonoridite, mostly humic acid) is best applied to soil were it provides long term storage reservoirs for nutrients and microorganisms.

Fulvic acid on the other hand is what I believe to be better for compost tea’s, fulvic acid is found in active humus or in other terms organic matter still actively decomposing (finished compost/composted manure).
Many like my self prefer to use fulvic acid with liquid fertilizer mixes, where it buffers the soluble fertilizer, chelates it, and improves its uptake for the plants.

I find no reason to go out and a buy a product that consist of only leonoridite(stable humus, humic acid) or even products that only contain fulvic acid, when I can go out buy or make products witch carry a variety of them all.

Humus, humate, humic acid, fulvic acid and humin are all (from my knowledge) transformed from organic matter, humus stable or not can be done naturally or with compost.

Organic mater and humus are included in animal feces
earthworm casting (vermicompost) and bat guano are considered by some to be the best organic manure there is!!
both have humus acids as well as other beneficial qualities

When adding any amendment to compost tea’s, my goal is give the microorganisms a variety of goods to choose from.
the variety of ingredients I add, to me, do just that.
Liquid karma and E/A inoculants that I mentioned have a variety of ingredients that are well known for plant and soil health. E/A has blue/green algae plus beneficial bacteria and fungi, ect, LK on the other hand is put together perfectly IMO
both have fulvic and humic acids if my memory serves me right.

I also don't like to buy products which claim to contain numerous beneficial minerals and ingredients. In most cases the claimed ingredients are only in trace amounts.

To me there is no need to add ingredients beyond small or trace amounts, most numerous beneficial nutrients listed, are trace elements/trace minerals, meaning you don’t need much but its good to have them.

Most good reputation products understand this and they also understand that healthy living organic soils tend to hold on to nutrients, till needed, yet at the same time make more with additions of organic matter.

I stress less is best!! Balance is key, microbes will balance soil better if soil additions are not excessive
Organic gardeners still need to remember to fertilize when needed but not excessively, irrigate thoroughly but not frequently and always promote good soil structure by adding organic matter and minimizing tilling.

The numerous of beneficial minerals claimed in good products will benefit your soil with time.
Just follow the instructions on the bottle/bag/box and by the time you find its empty, you can bet that all those numerous beneficial are now cycling in your soil, just be patient.


here’s some info on LK, a product that contains numerous beneficial ingredients, IMO a great ACT additive
http://www.rosemania.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product57.html