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Both of which work just fine, toil... And Dr. Ingham is as usual, correct about anything out of balance; but I find Nature will sort those situations out pretty quickly, and witha gross feeder like turf that you have been maintaining in an organic fashion, you can quickly use up excess nitrogen when it is specifically released in the rhizosphere. I do think it is a gross mistake in a less developed soil ecosystem

AS, are they sporulating in the water? Water can get spores to release from the hypha, but then they are just free floating spores as I understand it. While this is now a good inoculum, the hyphae develop AFTER you get them on the substrate. But germinating is for seeds, not fungal spores. Hydrating can get them ready, but unless they latch onto something they don't much hyphate. At least that is what I have been led to believe. Or am I missing something?

Wouldn't be the first time...

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OK, found the reference. For cultivating saprophytic mushrooms --

From p. 135 (p. 131 in googlebooks edition), Mycelium Running by Paul Stamets:

First, here's a bit that's relevant to our discussion:
...when you immerse spores in water, other organisms, especially bacteria and protozoa, comsume the fungi as food.
But mainly,
Soaking spores in a sugar and salt broth often causes them to germinate more quickly than competitor spores. After 1 to 2 days, the actively germinating spore-mass slurry will be ready to transfer...
What you described sounds similar to "Mycelial Fragmentation and Fermentation" which is mentioned on p. 146 of Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms by P. Stamets (c)1993 (this is an earlier edition)
...starting material is dikaryotic mycelium, not spores, In short, the cultivator chops up the mycelium into thousands of tiny fragments using a high speed blender, allows the mycelium to recover, and transfers dilutions...
p. 149
The hyphae recovering from the damage of being cut... is stimulated into vigorous re-growth.... After two to four days of re-growth in the nutrient enriched broth each [] flask becomes its own universe, hosting thousands o stellar-shaped, three dimensional colonies of mycelium... ideal for inoculation....

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Thank you for the clarification. I stand corrected.

And yes, I think the second example is a lot closer to what we do in a tea. In your first example it sounds like you are starting from a pretty clean place, using just shroom spores.

Mr. Stamet's assertion that bacteria are eating fungi is somewhat different than my understanding; I second toil that they are eating dead ones, and dead fungi are pretty easy to manufacture; the alkaline response in a bacterial bloom could be enough to cause mortality. I suspect Paul is simplifying the concept in that sentence; they certainly have different agendas and prefer (and create) different enivirons. They do NOT work together willingly; they are always pushing their own agendas... :lol: (But even then we have MHB's, mycorrhizal helping bacteria, that help to create the link between plant and fungus, so for every example there is a contradiction... :roll: )

I do agree that protozoal predation occurs, but I have only ever caught amoeba and really large cilliates at it. But you have much modified my understanding of the process and I better read Paul's book soon.

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OK, I tried turning the compost two days ago and the pile is way too soggy from all the snowmelt to be screened as I normally would with the bottom of the pile. So it occurred to me this morning that I should still be able to make AACT out of it, and I can moisten the seedling mix with that. Only thing is, I can make maybe a 1/2 of 5gal bucket batch in the near freezing garage, or a much smaller quantity like 2/3 of a 1 gal jug inside... well, or I *could* maybe do 1/2 a 5-gal water jug....

Any thoughts?

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Hey a couple of teaspoons of compost in a gallon milk jug with a little aquarium pump will do the job. Have at it... don't expect the banging tea you might get later in season, but it will still have benefit I'm sure...

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The Helpful Gardener wrote:Hey a couple of teaspoons of compost in a gallon milk jug with a little aquarium pump will do the job. Have at it... don't expect the banging tea you might get later in season, but it will still have benefit I'm sure...

HG
Man, I've been away from the thread for a week and look what I have been missing out on :shock:! Eh, it's over my head anyway :roll: (but I did learn some new things).

That is a great idea, HG. I kind of though about trying it in a jug, but did not know if it would work on a small scale. Thanks for answering my question :).

Now, on a bit of a different subject, here is something that I find interesting.

Do you remember [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXGqJbFZzCo]this guy[/url], he's the one in Alaska who grows those giant vegetables with his tea. Now, do you think that he is adding chemicals to his tea, adding special stuff to his tea, or is it the extended periods of light (even though he says it isn't) that makes his vegetables to huge. He claims it is the tea, but if that is true, why doesn't everyone who does ACT have giant vegetables?

I'm not trying to attack this guy at all, by the way; just curious about what's in that tea :?.
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meh.

Most of us are super grateful to have 8 hours of sun per day in a spot.

This guy gets how many hours of sun per day during his season?
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OK, mine's bubbling away in the bathroom. :() I gave it a dab of molasses on the tip of a toothpick and about 1/2 tsp of kelp meal.

The airstone appears to be clogged and is not producing as much bubbles as it should, but I'll just let this one work until tomorrow night and then replace the airstone for a better one for the next batch.

Now I'm looking around and wondering... bokashi leachate --> AACT? Does that sound opposite? bokashi is anaerobic, right? I'm pretty sure Wormbin leacheate would be a good addition. Then, of course, there are the "worm signs" (worm casting) on top of the indoor containers.... 8) 8) 8)

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Bokashi is facultative anaerobes, so it can survive the air for sure; may eve reproduce a little. It would also be one more bacteria fro protozoa to eat; why not? If redox levels get low it could start taking over as the productive bacteria; I think it's a good idea...

G5, our Alaskan friend is growing in virgin soil that he is ramping up even further with tea, in summer daylight that doesn't end. He doesn't NEED anything else... :lol:


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FYI HG, some lactobacilli can actually respire oxygen, despite the fact they have no actual pathway for respiration.

This is from the wiki entry on L. plantarum, which is on the label of my EM:
This species and related lactobacilli are unusual in that they can respire oxygen but have no respiratory chain or cytochromes—the consumed oxygen ultimately ends up as hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide probably acts as a weapon to exclude competing bacteria from the food source. In place of the protective enzyme superoxide dismutase present in almost all other oxygen-tolerant cells, this organism accumulates millimolar quantities of manganese. Manganese is also used by L. plantarum in a pseudo-catalase to lower reactive oxygen levels.
that last sentence... does that hint at the reason bokashi seems to kick hot compost into overdrive, allowing me to use a relatively small amount to heat my worm bin?
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The Helpful Gardener wrote:Bokashi is facultative anaerobes, so it can survive the air for sure; may eve reproduce a little. It would also be one more bacteria fro protozoa to eat; why not? If redox levels get low it could start taking over as the productive bacteria; I think it's a good idea...

G5, our Aaskan friend is growing in virgin soil that he is ramping up even further with tea, in summer daylight that doesn't end. He doesn't NEED anything else... :lol:


HG
You've once again confirmed my underlying suspicion: it's a combination of everything. The tea and excellent soil alone will produce great results for anyone, but I think that it is when you combine these with the extended daylight hours that you get the extraordinary results.

Well, I guess we here in the lower 48 will just have have to settle with great to somewhat extraordinary results from our tea :lol:.
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OK, I'm in the process getting some things together to make the tea. I know that about a month ago, HG said you want medium sized bubbles and an air pump that turns you tea about 3 times per hour. I believe he said that 5 in. (or was it 7 in.) air stone for an aquarium would suffice.

I've been looking at air pumps and I found one that meets the criteria, but for a few dollars more, I can get one that is twice as powerful. It has two outlets, so I'm guessing that it is really akin to just having two of the weaker kind.

Would it be even better to have two air stones instead of one, assuming that there is enough air to turn a 5 gal. bucket of tea about 3 times an hour going to each stone. If both stones were placed on the same side of the bucket, I would assume that it would assist in the "turning" of the tea.

So...Yay or Nay on the dual outlet pump and two stones?
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shop for the target capacity, and lay out options based on cost and quality.

what i mean is, don't buy more power, look for one with a longer warranty.
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compost "tea"

You guys finally let the cat out of the bag, that there's a lazy gardener way to do this stuff! So I was out planting today (YAY!! planting outdoors!). I took a shovel full of finished compost, put it in a bucket, added half a bucket of warm water, two big glugs of blackstrap molasses and stirred it all up. Put it out in the sunshine for about 3 hrs (and kept stirring it and splashing it around) while I turned the soil in one raised bed (crunching up and turning in the leaves I laid down last fall) and got things planted. Then I used my more or less compost tea to water everything in. I tell you something happened in those hours, because that stuff smelled so good I wanted to drink it! Looked like very dark hot chocolate and smelled rich, coffee-chocolate-good-sweet-earthy. The bacteria chapter in the book, that we aren't supposed to have read yet, says there's one particular bacterium that is responsible for that good earth smell--well it must have been working double time!

If I'd known it was this easy, I would have been doing this a long time ago!

PS I had a little more than I needed, so I threw the last of it with the dregs, back on the compost pile, should be good there too!

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:D

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I'm with T$B; good stuff. I love experiments like this; don't see a down side in the regime (it didn't sit long enough to go anny-robic). Let us know how it turns out...

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Yeah, well, that's the thing about this. No controlled experiments. That bed now has broccoli plants and onion chive and carrot seeds. Later it will have tomatoes marigolds and nasturtiums added. Last year it had the same stuff except not the onion, chive and carrots. So now the bed is planted thicker, more crowded with more different stuff. The tomatoes and broccoli did well there last year. Can I expect that the addition of my almost compost tea will make a visible difference such that I will be able to tell (especially given that I don't keep any production records)? The main things that affected tomato production last year were when the raccoons managed to get to them and when they got some kind of blight for awhile. If I can keep those things from happening, it will dramatically increase my tomato yield. How in there will I know how much benefit the tea may or may not be having?

I don't fertilize at all, turn the leaves under and then add compost when planting and then a midsummer application of compost as top dressing.
So maybe I'll do the tea a little more often, maybe I will even try it as a foliar feeding at some point. But I will be doing it on faith...

Although I believe in science, I garden a lot on faith. I believe that what I just did with the almost tea was beneficial for my soil, but I will have no way to prove it, even to myself. Too many confounded variables and not enough record keeping!

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Point taken; I know I have been reading a lot about the benefits of polyculture (which CERTAINLY fits your decribed bed), and how does one ascertain what is causing what...

In this instance I am still interested in the results and will live with anecdotal evidence...

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I was out today and added borage and thyme to that bed. It will be crowded this year! But I have so little sunny space, I've got to do the best I can with what I have...

I have some unused square footage (city version of acreage :) ) at the back of my lot, that is shaded now but only by honeysuckle and scrub. I could clear it for veggies, but it would (like most of my property) require clearing and some terracing AND it it almost 400' from the house, down a steep hill and up the other side and through a honeysuckle jungle....

That's why it is still unused! But maybe some year I will clear it and grow more veggies. In the mean time, I'm packing my beds!

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But using "tea" in a novel way, rbg...

Not even sure you can really call what you are doing tea, per se, but the function seems to remain the same...

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The concept I was going for was what Toil mentioned back on p 18 of this thread, direct extraction tea:

"As an alternative, quintuple the compost, add to the water, stir for 5 minutes, and pour. You can filter it to spray. That's direct extraction, and is near perfect "tea". "

Your response on p. 20 was

"It's more compost intense, as noted, but as all we are trying to do is culture, rather than populate the soil, this is a viable method. Be sure of water and compost quality even more than usual, apply immediately, as even a short sit could be disastrous, and you might even kick in a teaspoon of mollasses per gallon just to boost the innoculation process.

But it would work, no doubts... it would take longer than compost tea (we have multiplied the original inhabitants by facters of ten or twenty, even more there) to get effects, but it would work... "


So I did add the molasses (more like a tablespoon per gallon!) and I stirred for a couple hrs (off and on in between doing other things) not 5 min. But I was assuming I was in the ballpark and could call this direct extraction compost tea. Not so? How is what I did different from what you guys were talking about (this dialogue is what I was referring to when I said you let the cat out of the bag...),

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man, I just dump a bunch in water and agitate.

I don't think about it too much. :wink:
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rbg, I don't think you've done anything wrong, nor do I think this won't work. Just musing as to whether we still call it tea. I think Doc Ingham might give us a bit of a hard time about a lack of brewing time...

I like toils "direct extract" as a moniker; fits...

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we can call it tisane.

:lol:
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Glad to have you on the tea train RBG. I told you it didn't smell bad. :lol: One thing to remember is it shouldn't hurt anything (unless it goes anaerobic and starts breeding the bad guy's) but it should help out. And forget about science use your faith and all will be good.

Though I noticed you put it in the sunshine, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe direct sunlight can be detrimental to the bacterial growth which is what we are after in the first place. :wink:

Before long I can see you getting a pump for aeration.

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OK, I'm in the process getting some things together to make the tea. I know that about a month ago, HG said you want medium sized bubbles and an air pump that turns you tea about 3 times per hour. I believe he said that 5 in. (or was it 7 in.) air stone for an aquarium would suffice.

I've been looking at air pumps and I found one that meets the criteria, but for a few dollars more, I can get one that is twice as powerful. It has two outlets, so I'm guessing that it is really akin to just having two of the weaker kind.

Would it be even better to have two air stones instead of one, assuming that there is enough air to turn a 5 gal. bucket of tea about 3 times an hour going to each stone. If both stones were placed on the same side of the bucket, I would assume that it would assist in the "turning" of the tea.

So...Yay or Nay on the dual outlet pump and two stones?
shop for the target capacity, and lay out options based on cost and quality.

what i mean is, don't buy more power, look for one with a longer warranty.
OK, so you are saying that doubling up on the air stones will not yield any real increase in tea making results?

I can afford either the single of double pump and since they are both aquarium pumps, I think that it'd be cheaper to replace it that to send it back if it's under warranty to have it fixed. I'm not sure if the manufacturer pays your shipping costs. Anyway, I only have two brands to choose from and I thing that they are of about equal quality.

I do agree with your philosophy, though; it usually is cheaper to buy quality than to by cheap.

RG, congratulations on your first batch of.......?.....extracted tea! :D Now, I might be wrong on this, but weren't you the one who said a few pages ago you'd never use tea because it was too much trouble (if I'm mistaken, feel free to throw some tea at me) :lol:?

"The Compst Tea Thread"........changing gardening practices one gardener at a time :wink:.
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I think I said I never HAD used the compost tea, because seemed like too much trouble. I hope I didn't say I never would... never say never you know. But that's what I liked about my direct extraction method-- seems to fit with my lazy gardener style, no pump, no timing, no special equipment...

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G5, just because we throw a bunch more air at it doesn't mean we are going to get any more biology, and there is only so much saturation you can get in any liquid. So blasting a heap more air isn't the idea...

More nitrogen, more air; you are always trying to fit ten pounds in the five pound bag, ain'tcha? :lol: Do you explode your tires cuz the sign said free air? :lol:

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you explode your tires cuz the sign said free air? Laughing


:lol: OK, I got: the tea only has a capacity to do so much......and you just can't force it do any more. Sorry if I'm overcomplicating things all the time...bad habit :?.

Thanks for setting me straight on the pump and stone issue, I'll stick with one pumps and a 5 or 7 in. stone. I could try going with a larger capacity pump that will turn the water more than three times per hour, but that is probably overkill. The diameter of the tubing and the size of the stone will probably limit this effect anyhow.
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Wow, :shock:

New member to this forum today. Not use to so many pages on one topic. Nothing like it over at the GardenWeb forum. I will have to go back to page one and follow through.

This is my brother's DIY Compost Tea Brewer. Makes a 25 gallon batch that dilutes to 200 gallons of foliar spray , soil drench.

[img]https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/eric_wa/DSC01614.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/eric_wa/DSC01613.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/eric_wa/DSC01616.jpg[/img]

I'll go back to the beginning :shock:

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I know it's a wee scary, but it's worth the wade; a lot of good info in there...

That thread has made more converts than door to door evangelists...

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I'm making some anaerobic tea todya. My bubler broke down i have to buy a new one and get some compost and manure to. probably tomorrow. I havent been on in a long time. Today is the last day of the compoetition with my neighboure all will be decided on this day. Thanx guys for your insight. i've seen his garden and let just say that i have premeditatively kicked his touchus ! :wink: :D

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Sorry if this was already posted, as I have not read through this whole thread yet, but I hear a lot of people talking about using those small aquarium pumps and an airstone to make their tea's??? That is just not enough to cut it. The bare minimum for any healthy aerated tea is a pump that produces 51L of air a minute. There is great information all over the web on aerated compost teas, and I just hate to see someone go through the trouble brewing them when the benefits could be so much greater. Dr. Ingham also has some great info I would recommend everyone check out. Make sure your benificial bacteria and fungi are performing at their best ability is all I can say.
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I'm not sure what volume tea you are making, but most here are doing 5 gallons at a time. For that, a few liters per minute should be more than enough.

21% oxygen in the air x 2 liters per minute of air from the pump = 420 mL of oxygen/min

You and I consume about the same amount of oxygen as that, so I think our microbes will be more than ok. The system is probably limited by the surface area of the bubbles, however. So if you just have a tube going into your tea, and don't use air stones etc, you might have a problem.

It's probably not a bad idea for some of us to test dissolved oxygen and biologic oxygen demand in our teas, there are cheap kits available. Hmm...

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I can't find the source right now, but I have read to make an AACT, you need a minimum of 51L/min, or else your tea will start to go anaerobic, which is not good. I'm not saying a tea can't be made with less, I'm just saying the quality of biological life will be far superior if brewed with a minimum of 51L/min.
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if you just have a tube going into your tea, and don't use air stones etc, you might have a problem.
On Page 3, TDB mentioned using soaker tubing. I got some and starting talking about using it on Page 6, and posted a photo of my bucket with the 2000 air pump to show how much the bubbles were moving the water on Page 8 (OK, not very scientific, I admit. :lol:)

Rather thorough discussion of pump strengths in the prior pages too. I know there are a lot of pages, but it's really worth reading it through at least once before posting. :wink:

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On Page 3, TDB mentioned using soaker tubing. I got some and starting talking about using it on Page 6, and posted a photo of my bucket with the 2000 air pump to show how much the bubbles were moving the water on Page 8 (OK, not very scientific, I admit. Laughing)

Rather thorough discussion of pump strengths in the prior pages too. I know there are a lot of pages, but it's really worth reading it through at least once before posting. Wink
This is my favorite threat, I've read it a couple times :) ... My previous post was not really meant to be about soaker hose vs air stone (empirically both seem to work), I just used air stone as the example.

I was trying to say that aquarium pumps are theoretically pumping enough oxygen to support a huge amount of flora and that 51L/min is probably overkill.

Now if you had a vinyl 1/4" hose going into your tea with nothing to break up the bubble, you are producing large bubbles with not enough surface area for optimal oxygen diffusion. (I bet it would still be sufficient for tea though)

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I quoted you and then mentioned the soaker tubing as an example for your "etc." -- so I think we're in agreement. :D

The "threat" -- which wasn't meant to be threatening :cool: -- was in a separate paragraph and was intended for folks who haven't read through the thread. :wink:

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Uh oh :oops: I meant to say this was my favorite THREAD and I've read it several times... typos are a killer on the internet--such a clumsy communication medium. So sorry to anyone who was put off by my message and sorry to clog the threat (:wink:) with OT stuff, just wanted to clear the air.

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:lol: We're good. :wink:

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