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gixxerific
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gixxerific
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applestar
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OK, work with me here. Sheesh! 
Anyway, I guess it's my turn to be put on the block. The way I have it, we're growing FOOD for the microbes with the tea. So catch the ACT at the height of fungal proliferation. Use that, as spray or drench and they have a block party/orgy on and around the veggies (muscling out the undesirables in the process), every bacteria in the vicinity will crash the party, then the veggies in turn feast on the leftovers.
Anyway, I guess it's my turn to be put on the block. The way I have it, we're growing FOOD for the microbes with the tea. So catch the ACT at the height of fungal proliferation. Use that, as spray or drench and they have a block party/orgy on and around the veggies (muscling out the undesirables in the process), every bacteria in the vicinity will crash the party, then the veggies in turn feast on the leftovers.
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gixxerific
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apple,
the point of aerating tea is to replicate the aerobic organisms found in a small amount of compost, in more or less the same proportions as can be found in the compost.
I have heard of using more "fungal" foods, like hydrolysed fish, to encourage more fungal tea, but normally we are adding sugar of some type, normally molasses. When I think sugar I think bacteria. But I'm sure there is more to it then that.
But we are not trying to initiate fungal bloom (not sure what that is) in order to get things going. We are trying to grow the whole lot out. That's why we don't want to brew too long - eventually the dominant organisms (protists) take over. Add a protist tea to your garden, and you are doing more harm than good.
The food is already in the soil, or you will be adding it separately. Molasses, mulch, fish emulsions, green manure, etc...
the point of aerating tea is to replicate the aerobic organisms found in a small amount of compost, in more or less the same proportions as can be found in the compost.
I have heard of using more "fungal" foods, like hydrolysed fish, to encourage more fungal tea, but normally we are adding sugar of some type, normally molasses. When I think sugar I think bacteria. But I'm sure there is more to it then that.
But we are not trying to initiate fungal bloom (not sure what that is) in order to get things going. We are trying to grow the whole lot out. That's why we don't want to brew too long - eventually the dominant organisms (protists) take over. Add a protist tea to your garden, and you are doing more harm than good.
The food is already in the soil, or you will be adding it separately. Molasses, mulch, fish emulsions, green manure, etc...
Wow, I'm still learning things.
Anyway, to clarify my earlier post: here is what my "soil" is.
It started out as a heap of dirt. Now, this dirt was accumulated over the course of a few years, but mostly came from clumps of sod that has the grass die and leave the dirt behind. Over the course of the past year, weeds, food scraps, dead (but not diseased) plants, fallen leaves, and a bunch of rotten tomatoes have been added and the pile has been turned a few times.
The end result? It's still dirt, but it has a darker (richer?) color to it. Although it is not true compost, it does have some amount of organic matter in it. How do you think it will do for making tea?
Anyway, to clarify my earlier post: here is what my "soil" is.
It started out as a heap of dirt. Now, this dirt was accumulated over the course of a few years, but mostly came from clumps of sod that has the grass die and leave the dirt behind. Over the course of the past year, weeds, food scraps, dead (but not diseased) plants, fallen leaves, and a bunch of rotten tomatoes have been added and the pile has been turned a few times.
The end result? It's still dirt, but it has a darker (richer?) color to it. Although it is not true compost, it does have some amount of organic matter in it. How do you think it will do for making tea?
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The Helpful Gardener
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AS's turn on the block... 
We are not brewing food for microbes; we are brewing microbes... mollasses is our bacterial food and kelp is fungal side. Fish helps both.
We are extracting exisitng microbes from our compost, moving them into the tea and adding foods and air to the moisture to create a happy environment they will breed in. The bacteria grow, the protozoas grow, fungal spores relase from the hyphae in the compost, actinobacters start to twine around...
Protozoa are not a bad thing at all really, toil, those guys keep the bacteria from going over the top and crashing the tea, and they are our first level of higher predators to start our poop loop. I am happy to see all the amoebas and flagellates you can stuff in there. Cilliates mean your oxygen is getting low, so a few is good, but a lot is bad, but most of them are fine, even beneficial, unless we are trying for a more fungal tea, in which case lower numbers of bacteria and bacterial predators are best...
But if we are making fungal tea, and starting with a good fungal compost, then we shouldn't see heaps of the other guys anyway. It is a more ammonium based system, and doesn't need all the nitrogen looping we do in bacterially dominated soils... so anything not there at the beginning won't show up in the end...
G5, sounds like things ARE breaking down, so you have microbes there. Try it. Might not be optimal tea, but that's better than no tea at all... As long as you start with something that smells like fresh soil does, you will be getting good biology. Start out with stinky, don't be suprised if you end there too... 
HG
We are not brewing food for microbes; we are brewing microbes... mollasses is our bacterial food and kelp is fungal side. Fish helps both.
We are extracting exisitng microbes from our compost, moving them into the tea and adding foods and air to the moisture to create a happy environment they will breed in. The bacteria grow, the protozoas grow, fungal spores relase from the hyphae in the compost, actinobacters start to twine around...
Protozoa are not a bad thing at all really, toil, those guys keep the bacteria from going over the top and crashing the tea, and they are our first level of higher predators to start our poop loop. I am happy to see all the amoebas and flagellates you can stuff in there. Cilliates mean your oxygen is getting low, so a few is good, but a lot is bad, but most of them are fine, even beneficial, unless we are trying for a more fungal tea, in which case lower numbers of bacteria and bacterial predators are best...
But if we are making fungal tea, and starting with a good fungal compost, then we shouldn't see heaps of the other guys anyway. It is a more ammonium based system, and doesn't need all the nitrogen looping we do in bacterially dominated soils... so anything not there at the beginning won't show up in the end...
G5, sounds like things ARE breaking down, so you have microbes there. Try it. Might not be optimal tea, but that's better than no tea at all...
As long as you start with something that smells like fresh soil does, you will be getting good biology. Start out with stinky, don't be suprised if you end there too... HG
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applestar
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OK poor choice of minimal words. (As if I'm ever trying to be less than verbose elsewhere 
)
‣ I realize all the organisms are already in the compost and the aerating in the water with the molasses, etc. "cultures" or increases their population -- I.e. grows them. (Must admit I didn't catch/remember the molasses=>bacterial, kelp=>fungal, fish=>bacterial+fungal relationship)
‣ What I was trying to say was that my understanding was the fungi "blooms" -- I.e. explosively grows in numbers -- first, then the bacteria, then the protozoa, in that order.
‣ What I understood (and here I could be wrong) is that because fungi is the bottom of the food chain, we want to use/apply the tea when fungi is at peak -- I.e. a "fungal" tea -- thereby feeding what I called the "microbes" but what I meant was the entire biological activity in and around the target area (including the plant itself, I guess) THEREFORE the 24 hr brew being optimal, and the overly bacterial/protozoa infested (does that connote too negative a condition?) tea beyond 36 hrs.
...Chop away.
)‣ I realize all the organisms are already in the compost and the aerating in the water with the molasses, etc. "cultures" or increases their population -- I.e. grows them. (Must admit I didn't catch/remember the molasses=>bacterial, kelp=>fungal, fish=>bacterial+fungal relationship)
‣ What I was trying to say was that my understanding was the fungi "blooms" -- I.e. explosively grows in numbers -- first, then the bacteria, then the protozoa, in that order.
‣ What I understood (and here I could be wrong) is that because fungi is the bottom of the food chain, we want to use/apply the tea when fungi is at peak -- I.e. a "fungal" tea -- thereby feeding what I called the "microbes" but what I meant was the entire biological activity in and around the target area (including the plant itself, I guess) THEREFORE the 24 hr brew being optimal, and the overly bacterial/protozoa infested (does that connote too negative a condition?) tea beyond 36 hrs.
...Chop away.
well, food chain is not what we have. We want a web. But if anything is at the bottom it's bacteria/archea. To me fungi are of a higher order and more complex, especially the multi-celled ones. I believe they are eaten by bacteria and nematodes primarily, but I wouldn't be surprised if amoebae eat them. Not sure how they compare in size. But I will say protists are monsters. The biggest one in the world is so big it can be seen with the naked eye. no kidding!
In order swallow something it has to be smaller than you
Hey HG
I didn't say protists are bad. That's like saying wolves are bad for a valley. Of course we need predators. But if all we have left (say after 72 hours of brewing) is fungi and protists, they could go on a feeding frenzy in the soil and poop out too much mineralized N at once.
I'm not sure if fungi reproduce faster at first, but we are not waiting for them to become food. We provide a food source for bacteria and fungi at the same time (they eat molasses too).
If we were talking effective microbes, then yeah, I suspect the yeast (fungus) goes first, followed by lactobacilli, and the dead yeast makes food for purple nonsulfur bacteria.
In order swallow something it has to be smaller than you
Hey HG
I didn't say protists are bad. That's like saying wolves are bad for a valley. Of course we need predators. But if all we have left (say after 72 hours of brewing) is fungi and protists, they could go on a feeding frenzy in the soil and poop out too much mineralized N at once.I'm not sure if fungi reproduce faster at first, but we are not waiting for them to become food. We provide a food source for bacteria and fungi at the same time (they eat molasses too).
If we were talking effective microbes, then yeah, I suspect the yeast (fungus) goes first, followed by lactobacilli, and the dead yeast makes food for purple nonsulfur bacteria.
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applestar
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Hmm. I was thinking even as I posted that bacteria ARE smaller than fungi, but you yourself are saying this bacteria eats this fungi and that bacteria eats that fungi... no?
Perhaps you're right and fungi simply reproduce faster and populate the tea first. Perhaps fungi and bacteria are in a more mutually competitive and side-by-side, lateral relationship than a vertical.
Another thought that came to me is that I'm assuming preexisting organisms in the target area (meaning where we're going to use the AACT - be it soil drench or foliar spray), but the majority premise is that there are none or less than ideal, therefore the AACT organisms are used to populate the area.
I guess the concept I had in mind is analogous to planting beneficial insect attracting plants, which attracts the beneficial insects and eats the preexisting pests. Then, overall increase in insect population attracts birds that eat the birds. And they (bugs and birds) all poop, etc. etc.
Perhaps you're right and fungi simply reproduce faster and populate the tea first. Perhaps fungi and bacteria are in a more mutually competitive and side-by-side, lateral relationship than a vertical.
Another thought that came to me is that I'm assuming preexisting organisms in the target area (meaning where we're going to use the AACT - be it soil drench or foliar spray), but the majority premise is that there are none or less than ideal, therefore the AACT organisms are used to populate the area.
I guess the concept I had in mind is analogous to planting beneficial insect attracting plants, which attracts the beneficial insects and eats the preexisting pests. Then, overall increase in insect population attracts birds that eat the birds. And they (bugs and birds) all poop, etc. etc.
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The Helpful Gardener
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O.k., lots to tackle here...
"Fungal blooms". Not in tea they don't. We get little hyphal growth, even in undamaged hyphae, in the tea. We are more looking to free up spores and get them in the mix. When they get to that soil, hopefully we get our bloom...
Whose eating fungi? Well just about everybody. Not so much the bacteria, they are more clean-up crew where fungi is concerned, but I have watched amoebaooze over spores and digest them, fungal feeding nematodes stick stylets in them and suck them dry, and of course worms, mites, etc, etc,...
Here's the thing; very bacterial situations create an alkaline one. Fungal situations tend toward acidity. And they both prefer the situation they create, and dislike the situation the other creates. And please don't ask me to to explain it because the answer will have to be scientific to the point where it makes my eyes cross. We still aren't sure if the soil goes alkaline because of the bacteria, or if bacteria just like alkaline soil so much they show up, and the converse diliemma still abounds around fungi.
Suffice to say that when I am telling you all to stop thinking like chemists about NPK and pH, this is why. When we get our soil to a reasonably balanced fungal/bacterial place, everything from nutrients to pH sorts itself out. And as we are finding in the first chapter of our book club selection, it doesn't matter what YOU think needs to be in the mix because the PLANTS do the real selecting anyway, so let's just use good compost and let them sort it out, right?
Toil, most of my experience in using tea has been commercially on lawns, and in those instances there really isn't any such thing as too many protozoa. The bacterial population is the surest control of the protist population, and I have yet to see a soil devoid of bacteria, even the most destitute chemically treated wastelands still have decent bacterial populations if they haven'y dried out completely. So AS is right, assuming a decent bacterial population is a safe thing to do...
You have to trust that Nature will balance out any tweaks you make to the ecosystem pretty quickly, as long as it isn't a chemical attack. I agree you can get a little boom and bust with really crazy numbers, and a lot of the bacteria in our compost are things we want to get into our lawns and gardens, not our protozoa, but that's another reason to call it at 24 hours of brewing and use your tea. But I have seen very protozoan teas actually green up a lawn visibly within an hour. And people ask me if this stuff works...
HG
"Fungal blooms". Not in tea they don't. We get little hyphal growth, even in undamaged hyphae, in the tea. We are more looking to free up spores and get them in the mix. When they get to that soil, hopefully we get our bloom...
Whose eating fungi? Well just about everybody. Not so much the bacteria, they are more clean-up crew where fungi is concerned, but I have watched amoebaooze over spores and digest them, fungal feeding nematodes stick stylets in them and suck them dry, and of course worms, mites, etc, etc,...
Here's the thing; very bacterial situations create an alkaline one. Fungal situations tend toward acidity. And they both prefer the situation they create, and dislike the situation the other creates. And please don't ask me to to explain it because the answer will have to be scientific to the point where it makes my eyes cross. We still aren't sure if the soil goes alkaline because of the bacteria, or if bacteria just like alkaline soil so much they show up, and the converse diliemma still abounds around fungi.
Suffice to say that when I am telling you all to stop thinking like chemists about NPK and pH, this is why. When we get our soil to a reasonably balanced fungal/bacterial place, everything from nutrients to pH sorts itself out. And as we are finding in the first chapter of our book club selection, it doesn't matter what YOU think needs to be in the mix because the PLANTS do the real selecting anyway, so let's just use good compost and let them sort it out, right?
Toil, most of my experience in using tea has been commercially on lawns, and in those instances there really isn't any such thing as too many protozoa. The bacterial population is the surest control of the protist population, and I have yet to see a soil devoid of bacteria, even the most destitute chemically treated wastelands still have decent bacterial populations if they haven'y dried out completely. So AS is right, assuming a decent bacterial population is a safe thing to do...
You have to trust that Nature will balance out any tweaks you make to the ecosystem pretty quickly, as long as it isn't a chemical attack. I agree you can get a little boom and bust with really crazy numbers, and a lot of the bacteria in our compost are things we want to get into our lawns and gardens, not our protozoa, but that's another reason to call it at 24 hours of brewing and use your tea. But I have seen very protozoan teas actually green up a lawn visibly within an hour. And people ask me if this stuff works...
HG
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applestar
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Ah ha!
). PRE-GERMINATED FUNGI! 
This DEFINITELY means you want to avoid sunlight when applying your tea.
Pick a misty rainy day.
... and some spores germinate in aerated water within 24 hrs!! (Oyster Mushrooms for one, and, when done properly without competing organisms, the aqueous solution can then be used to inoculate an agar media - but that's another thread"Fungal blooms". Not in tea they don't. We get little hyphal growth, even in undamaged hyphae, in the tea. We are more looking to free up spores and get them in the mix. When they get to that soil, hopefully we get our bloom...
). PRE-GERMINATED FUNGI! This DEFINITELY means you want to avoid sunlight when applying your tea. Pick a misty rainy day.
bacteria do eat fungi! Dead ones... And they are too small to swallow. It's all done outside the cell I believe.
HG, I'd say that instant greening from protozoa heavy tea is caused by fast mineralization. I know she's not god, but Dr. Ingham does warn against it. The theory is that too many protists can consume too much oxygen at once in the right conditions. I imagine that especially in heavy soil this could spell disaster. Never seen it myself. But I stopped making aerated tea when I realize my equipment was inadequate. Starting up again would be great, but for now I make slurry, or at the community garden, we top dress with buttloads of humus.
HG, I'd say that instant greening from protozoa heavy tea is caused by fast mineralization. I know she's not god, but Dr. Ingham does warn against it. The theory is that too many protists can consume too much oxygen at once in the right conditions. I imagine that especially in heavy soil this could spell disaster. Never seen it myself. But I stopped making aerated tea when I realize my equipment was inadequate. Starting up again would be great, but for now I make slurry, or at the community garden, we top dress with buttloads of humus.
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The Helpful Gardener
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Both of which work just fine, toil... And Dr. Ingham is as usual, correct about anything out of balance; but I find Nature will sort those situations out pretty quickly, and witha gross feeder like turf that you have been maintaining in an organic fashion, you can quickly use up excess nitrogen when it is specifically released in the rhizosphere. I do think it is a gross mistake in a less developed soil ecosystem
AS, are they sporulating in the water? Water can get spores to release from the hypha, but then they are just free floating spores as I understand it. While this is now a good inoculum, the hyphae develop AFTER you get them on the substrate. But germinating is for seeds, not fungal spores. Hydrating can get them ready, but unless they latch onto something they don't much hyphate. At least that is what I have been led to believe. Or am I missing something?
Wouldn't be the first time...
HG
AS, are they sporulating in the water? Water can get spores to release from the hypha, but then they are just free floating spores as I understand it. While this is now a good inoculum, the hyphae develop AFTER you get them on the substrate. But germinating is for seeds, not fungal spores. Hydrating can get them ready, but unless they latch onto something they don't much hyphate. At least that is what I have been led to believe. Or am I missing something?
Wouldn't be the first time...
HG
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applestar
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OK, found the reference. For cultivating saprophytic mushrooms --
From p. 135 (p. 131 in googlebooks edition), Mycelium Running by Paul Stamets:
First, here's a bit that's relevant to our discussion:
From p. 135 (p. 131 in googlebooks edition), Mycelium Running by Paul Stamets:
First, here's a bit that's relevant to our discussion:
But mainly,...when you immerse spores in water, other organisms, especially bacteria and protozoa, comsume the fungi as food.
What you described sounds similar to "Mycelial Fragmentation and Fermentation" which is mentioned on p. 146 of Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms by P. Stamets (c)1993 (this is an earlier edition)Soaking spores in a sugar and salt broth often causes them to germinate more quickly than competitor spores. After 1 to 2 days, the actively germinating spore-mass slurry will be ready to transfer...
p. 149...starting material is dikaryotic mycelium, not spores, In short, the cultivator chops up the mycelium into thousands of tiny fragments using a high speed blender, allows the mycelium to recover, and transfers dilutions...
The hyphae recovering from the damage of being cut... is stimulated into vigorous re-growth.... After two to four days of re-growth in the nutrient enriched broth each [] flask becomes its own universe, hosting thousands o stellar-shaped, three dimensional colonies of mycelium... ideal for inoculation....
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The Helpful Gardener
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Thank you for the clarification. I stand corrected.
And yes, I think the second example is a lot closer to what we do in a tea. In your first example it sounds like you are starting from a pretty clean place, using just shroom spores.
Mr. Stamet's assertion that bacteria are eating fungi is somewhat different than my understanding; I second toil that they are eating dead ones, and dead fungi are pretty easy to manufacture; the alkaline response in a bacterial bloom could be enough to cause mortality. I suspect Paul is simplifying the concept in that sentence; they certainly have different agendas and prefer (and create) different enivirons. They do NOT work together willingly; they are always pushing their own agendas...
(But even then we have MHB's, mycorrhizal helping bacteria, that help to create the link between plant and fungus, so for every example there is a contradiction... )
I do agree that protozoal predation occurs, but I have only ever caught amoeba and really large cilliates at it. But you have much modified my understanding of the process and I better read Paul's book soon.
S
And yes, I think the second example is a lot closer to what we do in a tea. In your first example it sounds like you are starting from a pretty clean place, using just shroom spores.
Mr. Stamet's assertion that bacteria are eating fungi is somewhat different than my understanding; I second toil that they are eating dead ones, and dead fungi are pretty easy to manufacture; the alkaline response in a bacterial bloom could be enough to cause mortality. I suspect Paul is simplifying the concept in that sentence; they certainly have different agendas and prefer (and create) different enivirons. They do NOT work together willingly; they are always pushing their own agendas...
(But even then we have MHB's, mycorrhizal helping bacteria, that help to create the link between plant and fungus, so for every example there is a contradiction... )I do agree that protozoal predation occurs, but I have only ever caught amoeba and really large cilliates at it. But you have much modified my understanding of the process and I better read Paul's book soon.
S
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applestar
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OK, I tried turning the compost two days ago and the pile is way too soggy from all the snowmelt to be screened as I normally would with the bottom of the pile. So it occurred to me this morning that I should still be able to make AACT out of it, and I can moisten the seedling mix with that. Only thing is, I can make maybe a 1/2 of 5gal bucket batch in the near freezing garage, or a much smaller quantity like 2/3 of a 1 gal jug inside... well, or I *could* maybe do 1/2 a 5-gal water jug....
Any thoughts?
Any thoughts?
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The Helpful Gardener
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Man, I've been away from the thread for a week and look what I have been missing out onThe Helpful Gardener wrote:Hey a couple of teaspoons of compost in a gallon milk jug with a little aquarium pump will do the job. Have at it... don't expect the banging tea you might get later in season, but it will still have benefit I'm sure...
HG
! Eh, it's over my head anyway (but I did learn some new things). That is a great idea, HG. I kind of though about trying it in a jug, but did not know if it would work on a small scale. Thanks for answering my question
.Now, on a bit of a different subject, here is something that I find interesting.
Do you remember [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXGqJbFZzCo]this guy[/url], he's the one in Alaska who grows those giant vegetables with his tea. Now, do you think that he is adding chemicals to his tea, adding special stuff to his tea, or is it the extended periods of light (even though he says it isn't) that makes his vegetables to huge. He claims it is the tea, but if that is true, why doesn't everyone who does ACT have giant vegetables?
I'm not trying to attack this guy at all, by the way; just curious about what's in that tea
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applestar
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OK, mine's bubbling away in the bathroom. 
I gave it a dab of molasses on the tip of a toothpick and about 1/2 tsp of kelp meal.
The airstone appears to be clogged and is not producing as much bubbles as it should, but I'll just let this one work until tomorrow night and then replace the airstone for a better one for the next batch.
Now I'm looking around and wondering... bokashi leachate --> AACT? Does that sound opposite? bokashi is anaerobic, right? I'm pretty sure Wormbin leacheate would be a good addition. Then, of course, there are the "worm signs" (worm casting) on top of the indoor containers....
I gave it a dab of molasses on the tip of a toothpick and about 1/2 tsp of kelp meal.The airstone appears to be clogged and is not producing as much bubbles as it should, but I'll just let this one work until tomorrow night and then replace the airstone for a better one for the next batch.
Now I'm looking around and wondering... bokashi leachate --> AACT? Does that sound opposite? bokashi is anaerobic, right? I'm pretty sure Wormbin leacheate would be a good addition. Then, of course, there are the "worm signs" (worm casting) on top of the indoor containers....
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The Helpful Gardener
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Bokashi is facultative anaerobes, so it can survive the air for sure; may eve reproduce a little. It would also be one more bacteria fro protozoa to eat; why not? If redox levels get low it could start taking over as the productive bacteria; I think it's a good idea...
G5, our Alaskan friend is growing in virgin soil that he is ramping up even further with tea, in summer daylight that doesn't end. He doesn't NEED anything else...
HG
G5, our Alaskan friend is growing in virgin soil that he is ramping up even further with tea, in summer daylight that doesn't end. He doesn't NEED anything else...
HG
Last edited by The Helpful Gardener on Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
FYI HG, some lactobacilli can actually respire oxygen, despite the fact they have no actual pathway for respiration.
This is from the wiki entry on L. plantarum, which is on the label of my EM:
This is from the wiki entry on L. plantarum, which is on the label of my EM:
that last sentence... does that hint at the reason bokashi seems to kick hot compost into overdrive, allowing me to use a relatively small amount to heat my worm bin?This species and related lactobacilli are unusual in that they can respire oxygen but have no respiratory chain or cytochromesâ€â€the consumed oxygen ultimately ends up as hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide probably acts as a weapon to exclude competing bacteria from the food source. In place of the protective enzyme superoxide dismutase present in almost all other oxygen-tolerant cells, this organism accumulates millimolar quantities of manganese. Manganese is also used by L. plantarum in a pseudo-catalase to lower reactive oxygen levels.
You've once again confirmed my underlying suspicion: it's a combination of everything. The tea and excellent soil alone will produce great results for anyone, but I think that it is when you combine these with the extended daylight hours that you get the extraordinary results.The Helpful Gardener wrote:Bokashi is facultative anaerobes, so it can survive the air for sure; may eve reproduce a little. It would also be one more bacteria fro protozoa to eat; why not? If redox levels get low it could start taking over as the productive bacteria; I think it's a good idea...
G5, our Aaskan friend is growing in virgin soil that he is ramping up even further with tea, in summer daylight that doesn't end. He doesn't NEED anything else...
HG
Well, I guess we here in the lower 48 will just have have to settle with great to somewhat extraordinary results from our tea
.OK, I'm in the process getting some things together to make the tea. I know that about a month ago, HG said you want medium sized bubbles and an air pump that turns you tea about 3 times per hour. I believe he said that 5 in. (or was it 7 in.) air stone for an aquarium would suffice.
I've been looking at air pumps and I found one that meets the criteria, but for a few dollars more, I can get one that is twice as powerful. It has two outlets, so I'm guessing that it is really akin to just having two of the weaker kind.
Would it be even better to have two air stones instead of one, assuming that there is enough air to turn a 5 gal. bucket of tea about 3 times an hour going to each stone. If both stones were placed on the same side of the bucket, I would assume that it would assist in the "turning" of the tea.
So...Yay or Nay on the dual outlet pump and two stones?
I've been looking at air pumps and I found one that meets the criteria, but for a few dollars more, I can get one that is twice as powerful. It has two outlets, so I'm guessing that it is really akin to just having two of the weaker kind.
Would it be even better to have two air stones instead of one, assuming that there is enough air to turn a 5 gal. bucket of tea about 3 times an hour going to each stone. If both stones were placed on the same side of the bucket, I would assume that it would assist in the "turning" of the tea.
So...Yay or Nay on the dual outlet pump and two stones?
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rainbowgardener
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You guys finally let the cat out of the bag, that there's a lazy gardener way to do this stuff! So I was out planting today (YAY!! planting outdoors!). I took a shovel full of finished compost, put it in a bucket, added half a bucket of warm water, two big glugs of blackstrap molasses and stirred it all up. Put it out in the sunshine for about 3 hrs (and kept stirring it and splashing it around) while I turned the soil in one raised bed (crunching up and turning in the leaves I laid down last fall) and got things planted. Then I used my more or less compost tea to water everything in. I tell you something happened in those hours, because that stuff smelled so good I wanted to drink it! Looked like very dark hot chocolate and smelled rich, coffee-chocolate-good-sweet-earthy. The bacteria chapter in the book, that we aren't supposed to have read yet, says there's one particular bacterium that is responsible for that good earth smell--well it must have been working double time!
If I'd known it was this easy, I would have been doing this a long time ago!
PS I had a little more than I needed, so I threw the last of it with the dregs, back on the compost pile, should be good there too!
If I'd known it was this easy, I would have been doing this a long time ago!
PS I had a little more than I needed, so I threw the last of it with the dregs, back on the compost pile, should be good there too!
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top_dollar_bread
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The Helpful Gardener
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rainbowgardener
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Yeah, well, that's the thing about this. No controlled experiments. That bed now has broccoli plants and onion chive and carrot seeds. Later it will have tomatoes marigolds and nasturtiums added. Last year it had the same stuff except not the onion, chive and carrots. So now the bed is planted thicker, more crowded with more different stuff. The tomatoes and broccoli did well there last year. Can I expect that the addition of my almost compost tea will make a visible difference such that I will be able to tell (especially given that I don't keep any production records)? The main things that affected tomato production last year were when the raccoons managed to get to them and when they got some kind of blight for awhile. If I can keep those things from happening, it will dramatically increase my tomato yield. How in there will I know how much benefit the tea may or may not be having?
I don't fertilize at all, turn the leaves under and then add compost when planting and then a midsummer application of compost as top dressing.
So maybe I'll do the tea a little more often, maybe I will even try it as a foliar feeding at some point. But I will be doing it on faith...
Although I believe in science, I garden a lot on faith. I believe that what I just did with the almost tea was beneficial for my soil, but I will have no way to prove it, even to myself. Too many confounded variables and not enough record keeping!
I don't fertilize at all, turn the leaves under and then add compost when planting and then a midsummer application of compost as top dressing.
So maybe I'll do the tea a little more often, maybe I will even try it as a foliar feeding at some point. But I will be doing it on faith...
Although I believe in science, I garden a lot on faith. I believe that what I just did with the almost tea was beneficial for my soil, but I will have no way to prove it, even to myself. Too many confounded variables and not enough record keeping!
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The Helpful Gardener
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rainbowgardener
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I was out today and added borage and thyme to that bed. It will be crowded this year! But I have so little sunny space, I've got to do the best I can with what I have...
I have some unused square footage (city version of acreage ) at the back of my lot, that is shaded now but only by honeysuckle and scrub. I could clear it for veggies, but it would (like most of my property) require clearing and some terracing AND it it almost 400' from the house, down a steep hill and up the other side and through a honeysuckle jungle....
That's why it is still unused! But maybe some year I will clear it and grow more veggies. In the mean time, I'm packing my beds!
I have some unused square footage (city version of acreage
) at the back of my lot, that is shaded now but only by honeysuckle and scrub. I could clear it for veggies, but it would (like most of my property) require clearing and some terracing AND it it almost 400' from the house, down a steep hill and up the other side and through a honeysuckle jungle....That's why it is still unused! But maybe some year I will clear it and grow more veggies. In the mean time, I'm packing my beds!
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The Helpful Gardener
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rainbowgardener
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The concept I was going for was what Toil mentioned back on p 18 of this thread, direct extraction tea:
"As an alternative, quintuple the compost, add to the water, stir for 5 minutes, and pour. You can filter it to spray. That's direct extraction, and is near perfect "tea". "
Your response on p. 20 was
"It's more compost intense, as noted, but as all we are trying to do is culture, rather than populate the soil, this is a viable method. Be sure of water and compost quality even more than usual, apply immediately, as even a short sit could be disastrous, and you might even kick in a teaspoon of mollasses per gallon just to boost the innoculation process.
But it would work, no doubts... it would take longer than compost tea (we have multiplied the original inhabitants by facters of ten or twenty, even more there) to get effects, but it would work... "
So I did add the molasses (more like a tablespoon per gallon!) and I stirred for a couple hrs (off and on in between doing other things) not 5 min. But I was assuming I was in the ballpark and could call this direct extraction compost tea. Not so? How is what I did different from what you guys were talking about (this dialogue is what I was referring to when I said you let the cat out of the bag...),
"As an alternative, quintuple the compost, add to the water, stir for 5 minutes, and pour. You can filter it to spray. That's direct extraction, and is near perfect "tea". "
Your response on p. 20 was
"It's more compost intense, as noted, but as all we are trying to do is culture, rather than populate the soil, this is a viable method. Be sure of water and compost quality even more than usual, apply immediately, as even a short sit could be disastrous, and you might even kick in a teaspoon of mollasses per gallon just to boost the innoculation process.
But it would work, no doubts... it would take longer than compost tea (we have multiplied the original inhabitants by facters of ten or twenty, even more there) to get effects, but it would work... "
So I did add the molasses (more like a tablespoon per gallon!) and I stirred for a couple hrs (off and on in between doing other things) not 5 min. But I was assuming I was in the ballpark and could call this direct extraction compost tea. Not so? How is what I did different from what you guys were talking about (this dialogue is what I was referring to when I said you let the cat out of the bag...),
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gixxerific
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Glad to have you on the tea train RBG. I told you it didn't smell bad. One thing to remember is it shouldn't hurt anything (unless it goes anaerobic and starts breeding the bad guy's) but it should help out. And forget about science use your faith and all will be good.
Though I noticed you put it in the sunshine, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe direct sunlight can be detrimental to the bacterial growth which is what we are after in the first place.
Before long I can see you getting a pump for aeration.
One thing to remember is it shouldn't hurt anything (unless it goes anaerobic and starts breeding the bad guy's) but it should help out. And forget about science use your faith and all will be good.Though I noticed you put it in the sunshine, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe direct sunlight can be detrimental to the bacterial growth which is what we are after in the first place.
Before long I can see you getting a pump for aeration.