..
If you're tilling raw leaves into the ground then yeah, I can see some nitrogen drift. I'm not sure how much but them microbes need to suck nitrogen from somewhere to digest the carbon in them leaves.
Why not compost the leaves first and then add to the soil?
I will use crunched leaves as a mulch to protect the surface. They'll take a long while to break down but the soil underneath doesn't dry out so much in this dry land. Haven't noticed any depletion of nitrogen but then I cover with a lot grass clippings and I'm not that observant.
..
Gary350
I've double-dug 1-3 feet of loose leaves into the soil, in the fall for year and never needed a nitrogen suppliment.
This year, I've added 6" to 2 feet of ground(storm debri) wood and leaves(some on top and some double dug). All will be double dug, before planting. I am fearful, the nitrogen depleation issue may come into affect this year, but the dirt is looking good(maybe a bit too much wood chips).
I started(September) a new(free form) raised bed(10x16). 100% rough wood chips, fine wood chips and ground leaves(storm debri) leaves, ground leaves, coffee grounds, kitchen scraps, grass clippings, garden debri. There was a wheel barrow sand and wood ash and some of the garden debri had dirt on the roots. It has composted down from 4+ feet to under 2 feet. I am putting 1-2 feet wide dirt rows 4" deep across the bed for planting into. There is no question, it will need Urea/Nitrogen suppliment. This is going to be a test for me to see how well it does in almost pure compost(with lots of fresh/6 month composted wood)
I've double-dug 1-3 feet of loose leaves into the soil, in the fall for year and never needed a nitrogen suppliment.
This year, I've added 6" to 2 feet of ground(storm debri) wood and leaves(some on top and some double dug). All will be double dug, before planting. I am fearful, the nitrogen depleation issue may come into affect this year, but the dirt is looking good(maybe a bit too much wood chips).
I started(September) a new(free form) raised bed(10x16). 100% rough wood chips, fine wood chips and ground leaves(storm debri) leaves, ground leaves, coffee grounds, kitchen scraps, grass clippings, garden debri. There was a wheel barrow sand and wood ash and some of the garden debri had dirt on the roots. It has composted down from 4+ feet to under 2 feet. I am putting 1-2 feet wide dirt rows 4" deep across the bed for planting into. There is no question, it will need Urea/Nitrogen suppliment. This is going to be a test for me to see how well it does in almost pure compost(with lots of fresh/6 month composted wood)
-
hendi_alex
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 3604
- Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:58 am
- Location: Central Sand Hills South Carolina
-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
Alex, you needn't use lime, just add bacteria...
"Greens" like we mix with our "browns", in this case leaves, are really about nitrogen, which bacteria need a lot of (low C/N). Greens can be like grass clippings, manures, food waste, anything with a high N is basically "green". Bacteria are also triggered by sugars, as they are by root exudates from plants, so EVERY compost tea recipe calls for molasses to boost bacterial side. When you boost bacterial levels, you boost a predator/prey reaction that gets a lot of trophic levels feeding, and their little exoskeletons add lots of calcium as they munch and be munched. Bacterial soils tend towards base and fungal soils tend towards acidic, hence leaves ('brown", carbon) go acidic and manures ("green", nitrogen) go baser. You are adding the calcium carbonate you get with lime, without the magnesium of dolomitic lime (and yes you can get the calcerous stuff SOMETIMES, but not regularly, and it still involves a mining operation and trucking etc.; the biological way just involves some molasses water and some bacteria you likely have in your pile already).
Nature always balances itself given the option, and it does it pretty quickly. Mineralized calcium stays that way for a long time without the biology to etch it back out of the soil (weak acid reaction); I have seen really high calcium levels in soils that were completely unavailable to plants, becuase it was mineralized without the system to undo it; the biology was dead. Balance your bacterial to fungal ratios and your ph balances itself, your soil chemistries unlock and provide for plants and compost cooks a lot better...
HG
"Greens" like we mix with our "browns", in this case leaves, are really about nitrogen, which bacteria need a lot of (low C/N). Greens can be like grass clippings, manures, food waste, anything with a high N is basically "green". Bacteria are also triggered by sugars, as they are by root exudates from plants, so EVERY compost tea recipe calls for molasses to boost bacterial side. When you boost bacterial levels, you boost a predator/prey reaction that gets a lot of trophic levels feeding, and their little exoskeletons add lots of calcium as they munch and be munched. Bacterial soils tend towards base and fungal soils tend towards acidic, hence leaves ('brown", carbon) go acidic and manures ("green", nitrogen) go baser. You are adding the calcium carbonate you get with lime, without the magnesium of dolomitic lime (and yes you can get the calcerous stuff SOMETIMES, but not regularly, and it still involves a mining operation and trucking etc.; the biological way just involves some molasses water and some bacteria you likely have in your pile already).
Nature always balances itself given the option, and it does it pretty quickly. Mineralized calcium stays that way for a long time without the biology to etch it back out of the soil (weak acid reaction); I have seen really high calcium levels in soils that were completely unavailable to plants, becuase it was mineralized without the system to undo it; the biology was dead. Balance your bacterial to fungal ratios and your ph balances itself, your soil chemistries unlock and provide for plants and compost cooks a lot better...
HG
-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
Bacteria will ramp up on sugar but that is not a sustainable source; think of it as doing shots but if they keep that up all night, well, ... 
We want to do both things, fast and slow (beer AND shots), so why choose? Add both...
Boosting the bacterial levels boosts their predators and so on and so on, but let's get back to the title of the thread. What are we trying to accomplish? (I think the title is a false syllogy as it is one and the same, but I suspect that was Rot's intent, to portray the compost PILE as an unecessary step, and just sheet compost in place.) In sheet composting in place on the bed, we are doing all the above AND providing mulch, but we are doing it very slowly and we cannot add manures and foodscraps if we are doing food crops (trying to avoid E.coli and vermin infestation). Sheet composting has it's place, to be sure, but to those of us looking to diversify soil biology, reduce kitchen and yard waste, and maximize potential nutrition for our plants, thermophilic composting makes excellent sense, and yes, that means digesting OM, AS we make compost...
Way to play Devil's Advocate, Rot, but I do both styles myself, as I want to do both things...
HG
We want to do both things, fast and slow (beer AND shots), so why choose? Add both...Boosting the bacterial levels boosts their predators and so on and so on, but let's get back to the title of the thread. What are we trying to accomplish? (I think the title is a false syllogy as it is one and the same, but I suspect that was Rot's intent, to portray the compost PILE as an unecessary step, and just sheet compost in place.) In sheet composting in place on the bed, we are doing all the above AND providing mulch, but we are doing it very slowly and we cannot add manures and foodscraps if we are doing food crops (trying to avoid E.coli and vermin infestation). Sheet composting has it's place, to be sure, but to those of us looking to diversify soil biology, reduce kitchen and yard waste, and maximize potential nutrition for our plants, thermophilic composting makes excellent sense, and yes, that means digesting OM, AS we make compost...
Way to play Devil's Advocate, Rot, but I do both styles myself, as I want to do both things...
HG
HG, Love the shots and beer analog 
To us simpletons it makes sense.
My original thread question, maybe should have been, How much benefit am I loosing if I don't hot compost?
A current yard issue?
So, if I had alot of heavy woody stuff(logs and heavy sticks) I want to decompose. first is it practicle to do anything but bury them or chip them(I don't own that kind of a chipper/grinder), or put in a pile way out back if you want to use in the garden someday?
Or, can logs be composted? (neighbor has a tree we have chopped into firewood and we don't need that much wood) Can grass, ucg and other greens be added, ?put some sugar on it? and keep adding the nitrogen sources, will the bacteria break this down kinda quickly? under 2 years.
Or is fungus the only option? Likely 4-6 years.
To us simpletons it makes sense.
My original thread question, maybe should have been, How much benefit am I loosing if I don't hot compost?
A current yard issue?
So, if I had alot of heavy woody stuff(logs and heavy sticks) I want to decompose. first is it practicle to do anything but bury them or chip them(I don't own that kind of a chipper/grinder), or put in a pile way out back if you want to use in the garden someday?
Or, can logs be composted? (neighbor has a tree we have chopped into firewood and we don't need that much wood) Can grass, ucg and other greens be added, ?put some sugar on it? and keep adding the nitrogen sources, will the bacteria break this down kinda quickly? under 2 years.
Or is fungus the only option? Likely 4-6 years.
-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
AS's tip is on point, and kind of where I was headed with this...
Bacteria doesn't break down wood. Oh, there's a few that gnaw on this or that component piece, but in the long run, fungus breaks down wood...
Most soils I see are bacterial (even chemical culture doesn't kill ALL bacteria or even it wouldn't work) and getting things bacterial is easy. Getting things fungal is harder, much harder. Introducing leaf mold is a good way to get the fungii that break down wood, and most good compost has a very active fungal component (even manures usually have a fungal side; there is a spiral hyphae I only see in cow manures). There is your wood breakdown...
Speed is a matter of surface area, and aeration, so if you leave it whole, slow. Halve it, a little faster, chip it? Way faster. Turn it? Faster yet... (although that can break up hyphae some too; some debate on letting fungal compost sit or turning it, or something in between. I'm on the fence...)
Thermophilic composting (hot) brings a lot of characters to the dance and does things fast, but it can waste a few cooler inclined microbes along the way. Slow composting doesn't do it as fast or bring as much diversity, but preserves the usual supects (local flora and fauna). Why choose? I do both... sometimes I want fungal compost (slower) and sometimes I want bacterial compost (fast and hot)...
HG
Bacteria doesn't break down wood. Oh, there's a few that gnaw on this or that component piece, but in the long run, fungus breaks down wood...
Most soils I see are bacterial (even chemical culture doesn't kill ALL bacteria or even it wouldn't work) and getting things bacterial is easy. Getting things fungal is harder, much harder. Introducing leaf mold is a good way to get the fungii that break down wood, and most good compost has a very active fungal component (even manures usually have a fungal side; there is a spiral hyphae I only see in cow manures). There is your wood breakdown...
Speed is a matter of surface area, and aeration, so if you leave it whole, slow. Halve it, a little faster, chip it? Way faster. Turn it? Faster yet... (although that can break up hyphae some too; some debate on letting fungal compost sit or turning it, or something in between. I'm on the fence...)
Thermophilic composting (hot) brings a lot of characters to the dance and does things fast, but it can waste a few cooler inclined microbes along the way. Slow composting doesn't do it as fast or bring as much diversity, but preserves the usual supects (local flora and fauna). Why choose? I do both... sometimes I want fungal compost (slower) and sometimes I want bacterial compost (fast and hot)...
HG
AS,
Thank you for the thread,
Once again, this forum and members have turned on some lights. I am always learning or at some times having defined what I have been doing for years.
1986, I bought a house, I cut down an 85 foot Buckeye tree pushing the foundation of that house in Akron. It was a huge 85 footer.....I was one of the fastest shovelers this side of the Grand Tetons, I could have given Paul Bunyon and Big Blue a run for their money digging the mighty Mississippi.
Being a Gardening enthusiast and wanting to start planting that next spring, I burried the tree as a start to the garden, it was more than 20 x 50 garden spot, dug 3 foot deep trenches and used steel bars to roll the trunk pieces into the trenches. Lots of trunk, branches and sticks twigs, leaves. It was a huge dirt mound when I finished. I worked it every day 4-8 hrs, for over a week. This was basically a double dug technique(term I learned on this site).
That fall, I had an oportunity to come to Cincy for new career.
I kept the house in Akron and rented it to my old roomates, grad students and general misfits. They did nothing the first year, 2nd and 3rd they had small 10 x 20 foot garden.
Fourth year my sister moved in. She had a terrific garden, says it was the best dirt she ever had. She used the whole thing garden and fed her husband and four children.
I never grew anything in that spot because I moved, but it was said to be one great garden spot.
Basically, If me or the neighbor want to start a garden extension, or rebuild a raised bed, the excess firewood we have now would be a good starter with some dirt on top.
I wish I could explain how many times I've used HUGELKULTUR/ENPI and can swear to the affectiveness of this technique, but have never been told the name of it. Grandpa and dad used to say, "just bury it". They are first and secong generation American from German transplants. Guess I better call mine HUGELKULTUR.
Thank you for the thread,
Once again, this forum and members have turned on some lights. I am always learning or at some times having defined what I have been doing for years.
1986, I bought a house, I cut down an 85 foot Buckeye tree pushing the foundation of that house in Akron. It was a huge 85 footer.....I was one of the fastest shovelers this side of the Grand Tetons, I could have given Paul Bunyon and Big Blue a run for their money digging the mighty Mississippi.
Being a Gardening enthusiast and wanting to start planting that next spring, I burried the tree as a start to the garden, it was more than 20 x 50 garden spot, dug 3 foot deep trenches and used steel bars to roll the trunk pieces into the trenches. Lots of trunk, branches and sticks twigs, leaves. It was a huge dirt mound when I finished. I worked it every day 4-8 hrs, for over a week. This was basically a double dug technique(term I learned on this site).
That fall, I had an oportunity to come to Cincy for new career.
I kept the house in Akron and rented it to my old roomates, grad students and general misfits. They did nothing the first year, 2nd and 3rd they had small 10 x 20 foot garden.
Fourth year my sister moved in. She had a terrific garden, says it was the best dirt she ever had. She used the whole thing garden and fed her husband and four children.
I never grew anything in that spot because I moved, but it was said to be one great garden spot.
Basically, If me or the neighbor want to start a garden extension, or rebuild a raised bed, the excess firewood we have now would be a good starter with some dirt on top.
I wish I could explain how many times I've used HUGELKULTUR/ENPI and can swear to the affectiveness of this technique, but have never been told the name of it. Grandpa and dad used to say, "just bury it". They are first and secong generation American from German transplants. Guess I better call mine HUGELKULTUR.
-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
All soil is sucessional. The goal for nature is always to shoot for 100% fungal soils; in other words the way plant groups succeed each other is both reliant on, and responsible for, the fungal to bacterial ratios...
We start at bare rock and the first thing to show up is lichen, who exudes weak acids from it's microroots and starts things off. Then moss, then weeds, then grassland (almost where we want it), THEN a balanced F:B our sweet spot for veggies, then shrubs, then trees, then evergreens, where we finally get back to the sweet spot for Nature, 100% fungal. This is always where Nature is headed; sometimes she interrupts herself (flood, fire, drought, landslide), and sometimes we do it (bulldozer, chemical fertilizers, pollution, etc.), but we bump back a level every time we do damage. With fertilizers we can fool ourselves into thinking the soil is just fine, because the plant continues to grow, but we are knocking the soil fertility backwards so that weeds and mosses are happy and grass is not, or maybe grass is happy, but if you are growing veggies that is not where you want to be...
Hugelkultur is carbon sequestration when done organically; we are turning the carbonous tree into carbonous soil, LOTS of carbonous creatures, and carbonous plants thet we will eat or recompost. This works/has always worked/will always work. The chemical thing doesn't...
HG
We start at bare rock and the first thing to show up is lichen, who exudes weak acids from it's microroots and starts things off. Then moss, then weeds, then grassland (almost where we want it), THEN a balanced F:B our sweet spot for veggies, then shrubs, then trees, then evergreens, where we finally get back to the sweet spot for Nature, 100% fungal. This is always where Nature is headed; sometimes she interrupts herself (flood, fire, drought, landslide), and sometimes we do it (bulldozer, chemical fertilizers, pollution, etc.), but we bump back a level every time we do damage. With fertilizers we can fool ourselves into thinking the soil is just fine, because the plant continues to grow, but we are knocking the soil fertility backwards so that weeds and mosses are happy and grass is not, or maybe grass is happy, but if you are growing veggies that is not where you want to be...
Hugelkultur is carbon sequestration when done organically; we are turning the carbonous tree into carbonous soil, LOTS of carbonous creatures, and carbonous plants thet we will eat or recompost. This works/has always worked/will always work. The chemical thing doesn't...
HG
-
rot
- Greener Thumb
- Posts: 728
- Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:15 am
- Location: Ventura County, CA, Sunset 23
...
My point in the question of digesting versus producing compost was to address the issue of how do you want to compost. Yes digesting organic material and making compost are one in the same but digesting is just that while compost is an end product. While I still want lots of compost, my expectation, my goal is to digest as much as I can. I'll take that beer thank you.
Means versus ends is what I had hoped to be considered. If the end is to divert organic material from the trash stream and you're not interested in making mountains of compost as fast as you can then consider some method where it's easy to empty your waste, cover and water. Let the worms and the bacteria and the fungi do the work and leave the turning and monitoring to those who are seeking mounds of compost for their gardens.
At first I wanted as much compost as fast as I could make it so I worked it by turning every fourth day or so and watching the temperature and checking the moisture content. Nowadays with so much going on elsewhere I find I don't have the time or inclination to work it so much but I really take some pride in remediating some organic material otherwise destined for curbside pick up. I can do that at a rate that meets what we produce without knocking myself out. Well, except for newspaper. If anyone can recommend good ways to shred newspaper, I'm listening.
After a couple of years of trying this and that I've settled onto a method that works for us and our lifestyle. In the end, the best method for composting is the method that works for you without making you so much changing your life around and returns what you want.
I don't want to steer anyone into any one method for making compost. Worms, bins, piles, sheet, mushrooms all work. You can be as lazy or as elaborate as you like.
Interesting discussion on hegulkulture. I'm just wary of lots of wood in the ground out here in termite country especially just after tenting the house - an ordeal with our menagerie. Another reason for me to be wary - termites produce methane.
...
My point in the question of digesting versus producing compost was to address the issue of how do you want to compost. Yes digesting organic material and making compost are one in the same but digesting is just that while compost is an end product. While I still want lots of compost, my expectation, my goal is to digest as much as I can. I'll take that beer thank you.
Means versus ends is what I had hoped to be considered. If the end is to divert organic material from the trash stream and you're not interested in making mountains of compost as fast as you can then consider some method where it's easy to empty your waste, cover and water. Let the worms and the bacteria and the fungi do the work and leave the turning and monitoring to those who are seeking mounds of compost for their gardens.
At first I wanted as much compost as fast as I could make it so I worked it by turning every fourth day or so and watching the temperature and checking the moisture content. Nowadays with so much going on elsewhere I find I don't have the time or inclination to work it so much but I really take some pride in remediating some organic material otherwise destined for curbside pick up. I can do that at a rate that meets what we produce without knocking myself out. Well, except for newspaper. If anyone can recommend good ways to shred newspaper, I'm listening.
After a couple of years of trying this and that I've settled onto a method that works for us and our lifestyle. In the end, the best method for composting is the method that works for you without making you so much changing your life around and returns what you want.
I don't want to steer anyone into any one method for making compost. Worms, bins, piles, sheet, mushrooms all work. You can be as lazy or as elaborate as you like.
Interesting discussion on hegulkulture. I'm just wary of lots of wood in the ground out here in termite country especially just after tenting the house - an ordeal with our menagerie. Another reason for me to be wary - termites produce methane.
...
-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
And they are terrors down south; glad they are less prevalent and virulent up here... 
Point taken Rot. Your examples of "less is more" handling and procedure are centered on Nature doing the work and I have found that while our timelines are often divergent, there is hardly a job in the garden that Nature cannot do , and better than us and compost certainly fits that bill...
For me, with an AR spouse, all waste must be addressed, handled and contianed in the shortest amount of time; home pride allows a few dandelions, but not multiple piles. So fast turns on hot compost is my best tool to keep peace in the valley...
HG
Point taken Rot. Your examples of "less is more" handling and procedure are centered on Nature doing the work and I have found that while our timelines are often divergent, there is hardly a job in the garden that Nature cannot do , and better than us and compost certainly fits that bill...
For me, with an AR spouse, all waste must be addressed, handled and contianed in the shortest amount of time; home pride allows a few dandelions, but not multiple piles. So fast turns on hot compost is my best tool to keep peace in the valley...
HG
-
rot
- Greener Thumb
- Posts: 728
- Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:15 am
- Location: Ventura County, CA, Sunset 23
...
Yes the AR spouse. I currently have three hot, more reasonably warm, bins and three cold bins. There is no room to say that way is better than this. What works works and there is no doing anything about it.
I feed as I choose. Sometimes I'm more concerned about keeping hot bins going and feed the new one and sometimes I'm concerned with just covering something up like a hummingbird or butterfly or squirrel that will only upset the wife who insists our yard is a sanctuary for all three.
I made it work for me. I made it work for us. A pretty jar in the kitchen collects the weeks compostables and my job is to make sure that once a week it is emptied and rinsed. Order has been imposed upon the universe and there we stand.
It is not the most efficient operation. I doubt we produce anything near the best compost out there but, it's alright.
So the 50 gallon curbside green waste barrel never goes out to be picked up for the municipal pick up that supplies the local compost supplier but that means more room for others. The dark green trash barrel is usually less than half full. The gift of the dogs neither makes the local surfers down stream sick nor does it go into a landfill. We've started. We've made some small progress.
It works for us and if we can make it work it's not a great stretch that others, who at least appear less dysfunctional, can make a dent, scratch the surface, too.
Some time ago on another board there was a discussion on how to convince more people to compost and I basically shut down the discussion by pointing out that composting would have to be easier and cheaper than just emptying trash into a barrel. I'm a lazy slob with an AR wife and I can say: it can be done. No BFD. Don't stress it. Just start. Let it work out and it will. You'd be amazed.
One day we'll learn, and remember, that peace in the valley is worth the work.
...
Yes the AR spouse. I currently have three hot, more reasonably warm, bins and three cold bins. There is no room to say that way is better than this. What works works and there is no doing anything about it.
I feed as I choose. Sometimes I'm more concerned about keeping hot bins going and feed the new one and sometimes I'm concerned with just covering something up like a hummingbird or butterfly or squirrel that will only upset the wife who insists our yard is a sanctuary for all three.
I made it work for me. I made it work for us. A pretty jar in the kitchen collects the weeks compostables and my job is to make sure that once a week it is emptied and rinsed. Order has been imposed upon the universe and there we stand.
It is not the most efficient operation. I doubt we produce anything near the best compost out there but, it's alright.
So the 50 gallon curbside green waste barrel never goes out to be picked up for the municipal pick up that supplies the local compost supplier but that means more room for others. The dark green trash barrel is usually less than half full. The gift of the dogs neither makes the local surfers down stream sick nor does it go into a landfill. We've started. We've made some small progress.
It works for us and if we can make it work it's not a great stretch that others, who at least appear less dysfunctional, can make a dent, scratch the surface, too.
Some time ago on another board there was a discussion on how to convince more people to compost and I basically shut down the discussion by pointing out that composting would have to be easier and cheaper than just emptying trash into a barrel. I'm a lazy slob with an AR wife and I can say: it can be done. No BFD. Don't stress it. Just start. Let it work out and it will. You'd be amazed.
One day we'll learn, and remember, that peace in the valley is worth the work.
...
-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
Cynthia, see PM. Not polite talk at the table... 
Rot, my friend, there you have it. Find what works and do it. I try to make sure that if it grew in my yard, it stays here. If we all do, GHG emmisions will decreas considerably, and we will think about what we do and it's impacts more when we actually have to handle things ourselves. IMHO, that's just healthy...
HG
Rot, my friend, there you have it. Find what works and do it. I try to make sure that if it grew in my yard, it stays here. If we all do, GHG emmisions will decreas considerably, and we will think about what we do and it's impacts more when we actually have to handle things ourselves. IMHO, that's just healthy...
HG
-
hendi_alex
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 3604
- Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:58 am
- Location: Central Sand Hills South Carolina
Scott,
Back in the 1970's my father in law decided to plant pine trees on the family farm. My wife and I hated the idea as the property was established in a fairly mature oak hickory climax forest here in sandhills S.C. Lloyd clear cut about 60 acres of forest and planted his trees. About ten years later he decided to also plant pines in the rich bottom land that had been farmed previously and planted another fifty acres of pine trees. For the past ten years we have been taking periodic cuttings from those pines and have sold them for pulp or for lumber. We will continue the cuttting until most all of the pine trees are gone but will not replant, except perhaps some of the bottom land area. I'm hoping to have enough years left to see the pines gone and to see the mixed forest well along its way to being restored. There is no telling what will happen after we are gone, but the hope is that either someone who loves a mixed forest ends up with the property, or that perhaps it becomes too expensive to clear land for planting a pine plantation.
To the point, I was interested in your comment regarding [what grows here stays here.] That is a practical idea/approach for a casual home owner or land owner. But for anyone who uses their land for commercial use, how does that concept apply? And wouldn't the greatest application of that concept, even for an individual, lie in a simple lifestyle where very little material is imported into your home/property as well. When you read the paper or favorite magazine, or use other paper products, you are using some of our or someone else's exported timber. The same is true for all other imported products that you use. Anyway, I'm just wondering how your concept of [what grows here stays here] could be appied in some way to commercial enterprise.
Back in the 1970's my father in law decided to plant pine trees on the family farm. My wife and I hated the idea as the property was established in a fairly mature oak hickory climax forest here in sandhills S.C. Lloyd clear cut about 60 acres of forest and planted his trees. About ten years later he decided to also plant pines in the rich bottom land that had been farmed previously and planted another fifty acres of pine trees. For the past ten years we have been taking periodic cuttings from those pines and have sold them for pulp or for lumber. We will continue the cuttting until most all of the pine trees are gone but will not replant, except perhaps some of the bottom land area. I'm hoping to have enough years left to see the pines gone and to see the mixed forest well along its way to being restored. There is no telling what will happen after we are gone, but the hope is that either someone who loves a mixed forest ends up with the property, or that perhaps it becomes too expensive to clear land for planting a pine plantation.
To the point, I was interested in your comment regarding [what grows here stays here.] That is a practical idea/approach for a casual home owner or land owner. But for anyone who uses their land for commercial use, how does that concept apply? And wouldn't the greatest application of that concept, even for an individual, lie in a simple lifestyle where very little material is imported into your home/property as well. When you read the paper or favorite magazine, or use other paper products, you are using some of our or someone else's exported timber. The same is true for all other imported products that you use. Anyway, I'm just wondering how your concept of [what grows here stays here] could be appied in some way to commercial enterprise.
-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
Well that obviously changes the dynamic, especially if one is using an earth produc. If we are selling lumber, than the stuff has to go sometime. However...
Lumbering in the current fashion (as being romanticized on the tube in several places) is all about clear cutting and taking every stick you can. Most lumber taken today is softwood evergreens; we should not forget that that is the climax ecosystem Nature is always trying to get to in successional growth. But there are methods that do not intterupt the the natural cycles as hard as clear cutting; leaving mother trees, cutting alternating allys, rotating quadrangles, any of these aloow for faster replacement and better ecosystem. Yet they are generally spurned by the industry as "not cost effective" or "too much work". I have tried to move industry and have come to the realization that industry only moves at two whims; the dollar and public opinion, which are somewhat linked and both in the hands of the homeowners, who can make a difference in their yards as well. So I find outlets like this to be more productive overall...
Your state DNR likely runs a nursery that grows many species of native trees and shrubs; rather than not planting I'd avail myself of this inexpensive source and choose some real wildlife mast plants; oaks and native hollies and azaleas and blueberries and hazelnuts...well the list goes on. We can do a good job of building habitat when we wrok off Mother's menu and create great divcersity. I would consider leaving some pine to an area, rather than run the ecosystem completely off your property (dislocating who knows how many other species) and creating multiple other ecosystems besides. Mowing an area and keeping it tall grass and wildflowers, another of red maple swamp, and another of mixed hardwood all create areas where they meet called ecotones; an interface between two different ecotypes that actuall triples the species count. Areas like that are of huge value to wildlife and one of the reasons we can have such great effect (it is soometimes called the edge effect) in our backyards; we have a lot of edge to any yard. Think multiple ecotones...
I think the important takeaway is, commercial or residential, understand the effects of what you are doing, and try to minimize them as much as possible. Do good when you can to offset your damages, and Nature rewards in ways uncounted...
HG
Lumbering in the current fashion (as being romanticized on the tube in several places) is all about clear cutting and taking every stick you can. Most lumber taken today is softwood evergreens; we should not forget that that is the climax ecosystem Nature is always trying to get to in successional growth. But there are methods that do not intterupt the the natural cycles as hard as clear cutting; leaving mother trees, cutting alternating allys, rotating quadrangles, any of these aloow for faster replacement and better ecosystem. Yet they are generally spurned by the industry as "not cost effective" or "too much work". I have tried to move industry and have come to the realization that industry only moves at two whims; the dollar and public opinion, which are somewhat linked and both in the hands of the homeowners, who can make a difference in their yards as well. So I find outlets like this to be more productive overall...
Your state DNR likely runs a nursery that grows many species of native trees and shrubs; rather than not planting I'd avail myself of this inexpensive source and choose some real wildlife mast plants; oaks and native hollies and azaleas and blueberries and hazelnuts...well the list goes on. We can do a good job of building habitat when we wrok off Mother's menu and create great divcersity. I would consider leaving some pine to an area, rather than run the ecosystem completely off your property (dislocating who knows how many other species) and creating multiple other ecosystems besides. Mowing an area and keeping it tall grass and wildflowers, another of red maple swamp, and another of mixed hardwood all create areas where they meet called ecotones; an interface between two different ecotypes that actuall triples the species count. Areas like that are of huge value to wildlife and one of the reasons we can have such great effect (it is soometimes called the edge effect) in our backyards; we have a lot of edge to any yard. Think multiple ecotones...
I think the important takeaway is, commercial or residential, understand the effects of what you are doing, and try to minimize them as much as possible. Do good when you can to offset your damages, and Nature rewards in ways uncounted...
HG
-
hendi_alex
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 3604
- Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:58 am
- Location: Central Sand Hills South Carolina
My dad always said to [leave things better than you find them.] For me that applies to land 'ownership' which is really stewardship and represents a more transient relationship than many would like to think. In central S.C. most climax forests are dominated by oak and hickory. Thankfully the central portion of our property consists of about 40 acres of swamp land that could not be clear cut, which is dominated by oaks and other hardwood trees. The pressure placed upon the land by tree farming of pine trees is terrible in this state. We will vitually eliminate pines on our 130 acres parcel, but it will still be surrounded on three sides by pine plantations, which go through regular cycles of clearcutting, planting, thinning, to eventual clearcutting again. There is always plenty of open field transition growth following a clear cut. There is always an imbalance of pine forest in the area. Along our 2.7 mile stretch of rural highway, about 80-90% of the land is either cleared or is planted in pines. The natural mature forests for the most part only continue exist in the wet swampy areas.
We clear cut about ten acres of pines right around our home area last year. That is in preparation for the other pines being harvested sometime in the next five to eight years. The older group of pines has been gradually thinned and there is a nice undergrowth of oaks and other hardwoods, just waiting for the opportunity to get sunlight and take off. We were very selective with our cutters and told them not to damage any hardwoods unless absolutely unavoidable. My intention is to allow the forest to reseed itself from the many native species that continue to grow in the area. A few additional native species of shrubs and trees will be brought in, but will mostly be allowed to reseed and spread naturally. Some transition areas will be maintained, but mostly at firebreak areas or at boundaries near roadways, surrounding the home site, and a NG pipeline right of way.
Our view is to allow this parcel to become an small oasis as it returns to being a natural forest much as most of the surrounding forest was as recently as 30-40 years ago.
We clear cut about ten acres of pines right around our home area last year. That is in preparation for the other pines being harvested sometime in the next five to eight years. The older group of pines has been gradually thinned and there is a nice undergrowth of oaks and other hardwoods, just waiting for the opportunity to get sunlight and take off. We were very selective with our cutters and told them not to damage any hardwoods unless absolutely unavoidable. My intention is to allow the forest to reseed itself from the many native species that continue to grow in the area. A few additional native species of shrubs and trees will be brought in, but will mostly be allowed to reseed and spread naturally. Some transition areas will be maintained, but mostly at firebreak areas or at boundaries near roadways, surrounding the home site, and a NG pipeline right of way.
Our view is to allow this parcel to become an small oasis as it returns to being a natural forest much as most of the surrounding forest was as recently as 30-40 years ago.
-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
-
applestar
- Mod
- Posts: 30543
- Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:21 pm
- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
How small do you need to shred them? I don't do this myself but I suppose the best and fastest way to manually shred newspaper is a yardstick -- preferably metal. Lay out the paper several sheets thick -- put down the yardstick and rip away. It may be easier on the floor - step on the stick for more weight but on the table is probably easier on your back. If you have little kids, they'll be thrilled to be allowed to stand on the table and stand on the yardstick for ya! 
-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
-
rot
- Greener Thumb
- Posts: 728
- Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:15 am
- Location: Ventura County, CA, Sunset 23
...
The yardstick sounds promising. Maybe some variation of that method.
What I'd really like is a confetti cut of course. I have just torn up a bunch of newspaper by hand while sitting around watching television but I don't watch too much television any more.
We burned out a small office shredder with newspaper before. Newspaper can be harsh on those poor little things. I'm reluctant to go out and buy another piece of junk just to burn it out again.
I'd like to get the confetti cut because newspaper tends to wad up and then the decomposition basically stops until the worms can spend some time on it and not all my bins get worms. A confetti cut would allow me to mix it up with grass clippings and when I do that with shredded office paper, which is easier to digest, it prevents clumping of both the grass clippings and the paper.
I recently got a mean old violent chipper and I'm going to play some games where I throw in some newspaper along with other stuff. We'll see.
Thanks again
...
The yardstick sounds promising. Maybe some variation of that method.
What I'd really like is a confetti cut of course. I have just torn up a bunch of newspaper by hand while sitting around watching television but I don't watch too much television any more.
We burned out a small office shredder with newspaper before. Newspaper can be harsh on those poor little things. I'm reluctant to go out and buy another piece of junk just to burn it out again.
I'd like to get the confetti cut because newspaper tends to wad up and then the decomposition basically stops until the worms can spend some time on it and not all my bins get worms. A confetti cut would allow me to mix it up with grass clippings and when I do that with shredded office paper, which is easier to digest, it prevents clumping of both the grass clippings and the paper.
I recently got a mean old violent chipper and I'm going to play some games where I throw in some newspaper along with other stuff. We'll see.
Thanks again
...
applestar,
First of all thank you.
Since you posted on page 2 of this thread a link to a prior thread on Hugelkultur, I've been doing some reading. And a bit of thinking.
This has been a technique of our family's for decades, but neither DOD nor myself knew the name of it, as we discussed earlier today. He got it from his DOD, who's father(my Great Granddad) came to the U.S. from Germany in the 1850's.
Hence too many generations removed and we have lost the language and of course the name of Hugelkultur. This is not a nostalgia thing as I don't feel German, I am 3rd generation born in USA.
And as I've explained in previous threads and this one, I have a new HK bed(10x16) this year and once again it is doing excellent. Some of the best potatoe plants I've ever had at this time of year. So good I am going for two crops of potatoes in that same spot this year(we will see).
Point of interest,
2002 while in Peru, we went to Lake Titicaca. Highest navigable water in the world. The Uros(the reed people) have lived on reed islands for centuries(floating islands). Originally for security reasons. Their diet is small fish(some larger but few), sugar from the reed centers, and Potatoes. These people can survive for months on these 3 things, although the men will go on shore for fruit, which is not natural to the area at a very high elevation, and also some alpapca meat.
There is no naturally occuring dirt on the islands, although they do bring some up from the bottom of the lake.
These people grow potatoes in composting reeds only, no dirt(some have a little dirt on them). I have pictures of this somewhere.
I believe that would make this a form of Hugelkultur(HK).
There are few plants that grow at this elevation(12,000 feet)
Why do potatoes grow so well in decomposing organics?
I really don't know why it works, but it is an active practice in S.A., the term HK originates in Europe, and before HG stated Enpi is the word in Japan.
I have grown my best tomatoes using this, most often for beens, and also some of my best potatoes.
Why are we so worried about nitrogen sequestration with the carbon release in the HK.
Can anyone shed some light why and how this wroks so well.
And is utilizing this technique one of the keys to understanding how to thrive without our chemical fertilizers? If so why?
First of all thank you.
Since you posted on page 2 of this thread a link to a prior thread on Hugelkultur, I've been doing some reading. And a bit of thinking.
This has been a technique of our family's for decades, but neither DOD nor myself knew the name of it, as we discussed earlier today. He got it from his DOD, who's father(my Great Granddad) came to the U.S. from Germany in the 1850's.
Hence too many generations removed and we have lost the language and of course the name of Hugelkultur. This is not a nostalgia thing as I don't feel German, I am 3rd generation born in USA.
And as I've explained in previous threads and this one, I have a new HK bed(10x16) this year and once again it is doing excellent. Some of the best potatoe plants I've ever had at this time of year. So good I am going for two crops of potatoes in that same spot this year(we will see).
Point of interest,
2002 while in Peru, we went to Lake Titicaca. Highest navigable water in the world. The Uros(the reed people) have lived on reed islands for centuries(floating islands). Originally for security reasons. Their diet is small fish(some larger but few), sugar from the reed centers, and Potatoes. These people can survive for months on these 3 things, although the men will go on shore for fruit, which is not natural to the area at a very high elevation, and also some alpapca meat.
There is no naturally occuring dirt on the islands, although they do bring some up from the bottom of the lake.
These people grow potatoes in composting reeds only, no dirt(some have a little dirt on them). I have pictures of this somewhere.
I believe that would make this a form of Hugelkultur(HK).
There are few plants that grow at this elevation(12,000 feet)
Why do potatoes grow so well in decomposing organics?
I really don't know why it works, but it is an active practice in S.A., the term HK originates in Europe, and before HG stated Enpi is the word in Japan.
I have grown my best tomatoes using this, most often for beens, and also some of my best potatoes.
Why are we so worried about nitrogen sequestration with the carbon release in the HK.
Can anyone shed some light why and how this wroks so well.
And is utilizing this technique one of the keys to understanding how to thrive without our chemical fertilizers? If so why?
-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
2cents, I just posted a rather lengthy but no too complex thread on why that works so well...
[url]https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14052[/url]
For those that want overview, stick to my post; for those that want to see some nuts and bolts, the white papers are very enlightening if somewhat complex...but it certainly addresses 2C's question...
HG
[url]https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14052[/url]
For those that want overview, stick to my post; for those that want to see some nuts and bolts, the white papers are very enlightening if somewhat complex...but it certainly addresses 2C's question...
HG