rot
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not good with abbreviations myself

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AR = Anal Retentive
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The Helpful Gardener
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Cynthia, see PM. Not polite talk at the table... :oops:

Rot, my friend, there you have it. Find what works and do it. I try to make sure that if it grew in my yard, it stays here. If we all do, GHG emmisions will decreas considerably, and we will think about what we do and it's impacts more when we actually have to handle things ourselves. IMHO, that's just healthy...

HG

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hendi_alex
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Scott,

Back in the 1970's my father in law decided to plant pine trees on the family farm. My wife and I hated the idea as the property was established in a fairly mature oak hickory climax forest here in sandhills S.C. Lloyd clear cut about 60 acres of forest and planted his trees. About ten years later he decided to also plant pines in the rich bottom land that had been farmed previously and planted another fifty acres of pine trees. For the past ten years we have been taking periodic cuttings from those pines and have sold them for pulp or for lumber. We will continue the cuttting until most all of the pine trees are gone but will not replant, except perhaps some of the bottom land area. I'm hoping to have enough years left to see the pines gone and to see the mixed forest well along its way to being restored. There is no telling what will happen after we are gone, but the hope is that either someone who loves a mixed forest ends up with the property, or that perhaps it becomes too expensive to clear land for planting a pine plantation.

To the point, I was interested in your comment regarding [what grows here stays here.] That is a practical idea/approach for a casual home owner or land owner. But for anyone who uses their land for commercial use, how does that concept apply? And wouldn't the greatest application of that concept, even for an individual, lie in a simple lifestyle where very little material is imported into your home/property as well. When you read the paper or favorite magazine, or use other paper products, you are using some of our or someone else's exported timber. The same is true for all other imported products that you use. Anyway, I'm just wondering how your concept of [what grows here stays here] could be appied in some way to commercial enterprise.

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Well that obviously changes the dynamic, especially if one is using an earth produc. If we are selling lumber, than the stuff has to go sometime. However...

Lumbering in the current fashion (as being romanticized on the tube in several places) is all about clear cutting and taking every stick you can. Most lumber taken today is softwood evergreens; we should not forget that that is the climax ecosystem Nature is always trying to get to in successional growth. But there are methods that do not intterupt the the natural cycles as hard as clear cutting; leaving mother trees, cutting alternating allys, rotating quadrangles, any of these aloow for faster replacement and better ecosystem. Yet they are generally spurned by the industry as "not cost effective" or "too much work". I have tried to move industry and have come to the realization that industry only moves at two whims; the dollar and public opinion, which are somewhat linked and both in the hands of the homeowners, who can make a difference in their yards as well. So I find outlets like this to be more productive overall...

Your state DNR likely runs a nursery that grows many species of native trees and shrubs; rather than not planting I'd avail myself of this inexpensive source and choose some real wildlife mast plants; oaks and native hollies and azaleas and blueberries and hazelnuts...well the list goes on. We can do a good job of building habitat when we wrok off Mother's menu and create great divcersity. I would consider leaving some pine to an area, rather than run the ecosystem completely off your property (dislocating who knows how many other species) and creating multiple other ecosystems besides. Mowing an area and keeping it tall grass and wildflowers, another of red maple swamp, and another of mixed hardwood all create areas where they meet called ecotones; an interface between two different ecotypes that actuall triples the species count. Areas like that are of huge value to wildlife and one of the reasons we can have such great effect (it is soometimes called the edge effect) in our backyards; we have a lot of edge to any yard. Think multiple ecotones...

I think the important takeaway is, commercial or residential, understand the effects of what you are doing, and try to minimize them as much as possible. Do good when you can to offset your damages, and Nature rewards in ways uncounted...

HG

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hendi_alex
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My dad always said to [leave things better than you find them.] For me that applies to land 'ownership' which is really stewardship and represents a more transient relationship than many would like to think. In central S.C. most climax forests are dominated by oak and hickory. Thankfully the central portion of our property consists of about 40 acres of swamp land that could not be clear cut, which is dominated by oaks and other hardwood trees. The pressure placed upon the land by tree farming of pine trees is terrible in this state. We will vitually eliminate pines on our 130 acres parcel, but it will still be surrounded on three sides by pine plantations, which go through regular cycles of clearcutting, planting, thinning, to eventual clearcutting again. There is always plenty of open field transition growth following a clear cut. There is always an imbalance of pine forest in the area. Along our 2.7 mile stretch of rural highway, about 80-90% of the land is either cleared or is planted in pines. The natural mature forests for the most part only continue exist in the wet swampy areas.

We clear cut about ten acres of pines right around our home area last year. That is in preparation for the other pines being harvested sometime in the next five to eight years. The older group of pines has been gradually thinned and there is a nice undergrowth of oaks and other hardwoods, just waiting for the opportunity to get sunlight and take off. We were very selective with our cutters and told them not to damage any hardwoods unless absolutely unavoidable. My intention is to allow the forest to reseed itself from the many native species that continue to grow in the area. A few additional native species of shrubs and trees will be brought in, but will mostly be allowed to reseed and spread naturally. Some transition areas will be maintained, but mostly at firebreak areas or at boundaries near roadways, surrounding the home site, and a NG pipeline right of way.

Our view is to allow this parcel to become an small oasis as it returns to being a natural forest much as most of the surrounding forest was as recently as 30-40 years ago.

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applestar
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Wow you're so lucky, Alex. How cool is that? :D

The Helpful Gardener
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Alex, I can see you have given a great deal of thought to this, and are doing your best to balance a monocultural cultivation issue that you have no control over. Best I can do is thank you for your foresight and work. We all owe you that... :D

HG

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I'm shooting for what comes here, stays here in our little sub urban plot.

I'm still interested in any effective methods of shredding newspaper. Otherwise it will be the occasional weed block. Hardly enough to re-purpose our subscription.

Little by little a little later
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applestar
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How small do you need to shred them? I don't do this myself but I suppose the best and fastest way to manually shred newspaper is a yardstick -- preferably metal. Lay out the paper several sheets thick -- put down the yardstick and rip away. It may be easier on the floor - step on the stick for more weight but on the table is probably easier on your back. If you have little kids, they'll be thrilled to be allowed to stand on the table and stand on the yardstick for ya! :wink:

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A regular paper shredder does wonders; you can use it for bedding in a vermicomposter or go right to the compost heap...

HG

rot
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... 
The yardstick sounds promising. Maybe some variation of that method.

What I'd really like is a confetti cut of course. I have just torn up a bunch of newspaper by hand while sitting around watching television but I don't watch too much television any more.

We burned out a small office shredder with newspaper before. Newspaper can be harsh on those poor little things. I'm reluctant to go out and buy another piece of junk just to burn it out again.

I'd like to get the confetti cut because newspaper tends to wad up and then the decomposition basically stops until the worms can spend some time on it and not all my bins get worms. A confetti cut would allow me to mix it up with grass clippings and when I do that with shredded office paper, which is easier to digest, it prevents clumping of both the grass clippings and the paper.

I recently got a mean old violent chipper and I'm going to play some games where I throw in some newspaper along with other stuff. We'll see.

Thanks again
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applestar,
First of all thank you.
Since you posted on page 2 of this thread a link to a prior thread on Hugelkultur, I've been doing some reading. And a bit of thinking.

This has been a technique of our family's for decades, but neither DOD nor myself knew the name of it, as we discussed earlier today. He got it from his DOD, who's father(my Great Granddad) came to the U.S. from Germany in the 1850's.
Hence too many generations removed and we have lost the language and of course the name of Hugelkultur. This is not a nostalgia thing as I don't feel German, I am 3rd generation born in USA.

And as I've explained in previous threads and this one, I have a new HK bed(10x16) this year and once again it is doing excellent. Some of the best potatoe plants I've ever had at this time of year. So good I am going for two crops of potatoes in that same spot this year(we will see).

Point of interest,
2002 while in Peru, we went to Lake Titicaca. Highest navigable water in the world. The Uros(the reed people) have lived on reed islands for centuries(floating islands). Originally for security reasons. Their diet is small fish(some larger but few), sugar from the reed centers, and Potatoes. These people can survive for months on these 3 things, although the men will go on shore for fruit, which is not natural to the area at a very high elevation, and also some alpapca meat.

There is no naturally occuring dirt on the islands, although they do bring some up from the bottom of the lake.
These people grow potatoes in composting reeds only, no dirt(some have a little dirt on them). I have pictures of this somewhere.
I believe that would make this a form of Hugelkultur(HK).
There are few plants that grow at this elevation(12,000 feet)
Why do potatoes grow so well in decomposing organics?

I really don't know why it works, but it is an active practice in S.A., the term HK originates in Europe, and before HG stated Enpi is the word in Japan.
I have grown my best tomatoes using this, most often for beens, and also some of my best potatoes.

Why are we so worried about nitrogen sequestration with the carbon release in the HK.
Can anyone shed some light why and how this wroks so well.
And is utilizing this technique one of the keys to understanding how to thrive without our chemical fertilizers? If so why?

The Helpful Gardener
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2cents, I just posted a rather lengthy but no too complex thread on why that works so well...

[url]https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14052[/url]

For those that want overview, stick to my post; for those that want to see some nuts and bolts, the white papers are very enlightening if somewhat complex...but it certainly addresses 2C's question...

HG



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