Leaching of nutrient?
How much is leached out from the cold composting. And is it caught in the top soil below the compost pile or what happens to this nutrient?
Sorry for this long question, but, This point came from a recent post on another topic, I didn't want to hijack the other persons question, so this one is started.
So, could someone help me?
I've been a part of cold composting for over 40 years(helping dear old dad). Watching someone else 30 years ago, I figured out the extraordinary value of tree leaves. For 25 yrs, I've added them to my own garden in increasing quantities, of course mostly in the fall, so as they decompose, any leaching is right into the garden.
The cold compost piles by the shed, augment these leaves, of course it has wood and all kinds of stuff, depending on what I bring to it.
When this cold compost(1-3 years old) is added to the garden, what am I actually adding to the soil? How beneficial is it.
Am I just making a work project for myself, with little benefit?
I've played with hot compost in the past, it has not been a passion, but is growing like an addiction as I just love to see it steam.
What is really the nutrient difference of the two?
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smokensqueal
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- Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:36 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO Metro area
Here's the way I see it.
Cold compost is more like mother nature does things. Leaves fall, animals eat and leave behind their mess and plants grow and die. This is all done in the same area. So when things are cold composted most of the time the nutrients are worked right back into the grown where the composting happens. Plus you don't have any thing to stop the heavy rains washing things away. While you can still get good stuff from a cold compost it's mostly just OM that still does wonders for the garden. If you cold compost on the same area over and over you may build a nice pile that you can pull from that have all the nutrients in there. That usually looks more like good topsoil. If you got the place you could do cold composting on a concrete pad. Make sure some of it is touching the ground to pull up the worms into the pile. Cover it to keep any heavy rains from washing everything away and in a year or two you will have a nice pile of that black rich dirt with many nutrients in it. Personally I think that's the best but I have no room to do that or time. I'm a bit impatient.
Hot compost is more like man's way of giving mother nature an optimal place to do composting. Since everything is piled up in a bin usually everything stays confined. Some people even do it on concrete so there is very little leaching of anything from the compost pile. Mine is directly on the dirt and at time when I dig out the compost I'm sure I dig deeper into the ground because I find it to be so nice. I'm thinking next year I'll be moving my hot bin to a new place and in the old place do one of those small 4 x 4 garden squares. I'm thinking it will produce really well. Last spring I accidentally left the top of my bin open and it poured down rain. A few weeks later the grass behind the bit so so green and was growing so fast I had to cut it almost every other day.
Cold compost is more like mother nature does things. Leaves fall, animals eat and leave behind their mess and plants grow and die. This is all done in the same area. So when things are cold composted most of the time the nutrients are worked right back into the grown where the composting happens. Plus you don't have any thing to stop the heavy rains washing things away. While you can still get good stuff from a cold compost it's mostly just OM that still does wonders for the garden. If you cold compost on the same area over and over you may build a nice pile that you can pull from that have all the nutrients in there. That usually looks more like good topsoil. If you got the place you could do cold composting on a concrete pad. Make sure some of it is touching the ground to pull up the worms into the pile. Cover it to keep any heavy rains from washing everything away and in a year or two you will have a nice pile of that black rich dirt with many nutrients in it. Personally I think that's the best but I have no room to do that or time. I'm a bit impatient.
Hot compost is more like man's way of giving mother nature an optimal place to do composting. Since everything is piled up in a bin usually everything stays confined. Some people even do it on concrete so there is very little leaching of anything from the compost pile. Mine is directly on the dirt and at time when I dig out the compost I'm sure I dig deeper into the ground because I find it to be so nice. I'm thinking next year I'll be moving my hot bin to a new place and in the old place do one of those small 4 x 4 garden squares. I'm thinking it will produce really well. Last spring I accidentally left the top of my bin open and it poured down rain. A few weeks later the grass behind the bit so so green and was growing so fast I had to cut it almost every other day.
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applestar
- Mod
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- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
My composting is mostly cold~luke warm at best 
I've only started a 3-bin compsting system over the last year. These bins sit on a slight rise of mostly clay subsoil. I keep a wood pile behind the compost bins -- this consists of pruned branches, wind-fall sticks, Christmas tree after all the needles have browned and fallen in the blueberry patch, extra woody material like corn stalks and sunflower stalks, etc. All waiting to be chipped/shredded someday.... 
Whenever I need what the gardening books refer to as "good garden loam", I get what I call the "GOOD UNDER THE WOOD PILE DIRT." This usually goes in my soil mixes. I also scrape aside the compost to dig out the good dirt from underneath. With the 3 bins going, I'm hoping I won't have to BUY any more bagged topsoil.
Cold or not, that's a lot of organic matter and humus, and will do wonders for you soil. I suppose without actually testing there's no way to tell what the nutrient values are, but I imagine that short of composting in a fallow garden space every year (I'd do that if I had the space...), some losses can't be helped.
Think about it this way, do you want to keep all that goodness for yourself or do you want to THROW THEM ALL AWAY? What if EVERYBODY composted their own yard waste and kitchen scraps? (What a novel concept....
I think there's a good reason our trash bin isn't as full as the neighbors....)
I've only started a 3-bin compsting system over the last year. These bins sit on a slight rise of mostly clay subsoil. I keep a wood pile behind the compost bins -- this consists of pruned branches, wind-fall sticks, Christmas tree after all the needles have browned and fallen in the blueberry patch, extra woody material like corn stalks and sunflower stalks, etc. All waiting to be chipped/shredded someday.... Whenever I need what the gardening books refer to as "good garden loam", I get what I call the "GOOD UNDER THE WOOD PILE DIRT." This usually goes in my soil mixes. I also scrape aside the compost to dig out the good dirt from underneath. With the 3 bins going, I'm hoping I won't have to BUY any more bagged topsoil.
Cold or not, that's a lot of organic matter and humus, and will do wonders for you soil. I suppose without actually testing there's no way to tell what the nutrient values are, but I imagine that short of composting in a fallow garden space every year (I'd do that if I had the space...), some losses can't be helped.
Think about it this way, do you want to keep all that goodness for yourself or do you want to THROW THEM ALL AWAY? What if EVERYBODY composted their own yard waste and kitchen scraps? (What a novel concept....
I think there's a good reason our trash bin isn't as full as the neighbors....)-
rainbowgardener
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:04 pm
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your compost is still good stuff... Compost does all kinds of things, adds nutrients, but also texturizes your soil, so that sandy soil or clay soil both become more loamy and hold water and air more optimally. Depending on what you put in your compost pile and how you manage it, may change nutrient values some what, but not all the rest. Anyway, if nutrients are leaching, they are going into the soil beneath, if it's sitting on soil. I do find my self gradually digging a little compost pit. When I'm digging the compost out, I dig a little farther down than where the compost orignally started, because it's good rich dirt there...
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rot
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- Location: Ventura County, CA, Sunset 23
...
I don't get the question? What leaching? I believe the nitrogen draft from woody mulch is over stated.
My cold bins have become worm farms. I'm harvesting worms almost as much as compost on my cold bin 18 month or so cycle.
Hot or cold, both methods digest organics. Cold bins take less energy and hot bins return compost quicker so the space can be used for the next batch. That's the equation in my head anyways.
My sometimes cold and sometime hot composting works for me and how I live so in my book that's a success. A different formula will surely be required for someone else.
These days I'm content to just digest the organics our household produces. Spring is here so maybe I'll feel like producing more compost for fall so I'll invest the energy accordingly. Either way I'm remediating a bunch of stuff that returns value instead of costing me or the municipality I live in by expending effort for disposal.
Whaddaya need? Whaddaya got? How much do you wanna spend? What can you live with?
two cents
...
I don't get the question? What leaching? I believe the nitrogen draft from woody mulch is over stated.
My cold bins have become worm farms. I'm harvesting worms almost as much as compost on my cold bin 18 month or so cycle.
Hot or cold, both methods digest organics. Cold bins take less energy and hot bins return compost quicker so the space can be used for the next batch. That's the equation in my head anyways.
My sometimes cold and sometime hot composting works for me and how I live so in my book that's a success. A different formula will surely be required for someone else.
These days I'm content to just digest the organics our household produces. Spring is here so maybe I'll feel like producing more compost for fall so I'll invest the energy accordingly. Either way I'm remediating a bunch of stuff that returns value instead of costing me or the municipality I live in by expending effort for disposal.
Whaddaya need? Whaddaya got? How much do you wanna spend? What can you live with?
two cents
...
My Question?
I guess in search of being more efficient with the compost process, what are the best practices? or process?
I am new to hot composting.
I heap the organics, mostly leaves.
I build one pile(a 2 sided cypress plank, 2 feet high just to give it some form and stop it from blowing and being a huge mess). It takes work keeping it together, but not too much effort. The heap has rough sticks on the bottom. Leaves and weeds and garden debri on top. It is 3-6 feet high before settling.(decomposing)
Every 2-3 years I purge this pile and incorporate into the garden and start a new pile same place.
1/2 to 3/4 of fall leaves are incorporated into the garden every year.
Last 2 years, I am getting neighbors grass clippings and put on pile, it heats a section for a short time. Prior hot composting was not by design(this wasn't either, just have been observing it). So my experience in hot composting hasn't really been intentional.
Last fall, I started a 10x16 garden extension. Wood, leaves, grass clippings, manure, garden debri, weeds, kitchen scraps..It got hot and cooled. Intentionally hot compost. Heated up with green 3 times.
Since I am fairly inexperienced at hot composting, I wonder what is the greater benefit?
Should I be putting more kitchen scraps into the cold pile for the benefit of nutrient value? I know how beneficial manure is, but I've always put it on the garden in the fall, some extra went into the compost pile. Should I get more manure to hot compost, how much will this really help increase nutrient value, if I am already adding it to the garden?
Sorry for the long explanations, but I am wanting to go with the best practices. Mostly for the nutrient supplimentation to the garden. I like the idea of minimizing landfill, but it has not been a high priority for me.
The process of incorporating kitchen scraps into the pile has not been met with eagerness on the wife's idea of what should be out back. But, she puts up with my eccentric gardening. Urea in the compost or garden has a gross factor for her. And the manure is one of the reasons she is glad to be off the farm, where she grew up.
If the nutrient value is reaaly beneficial, she will accept it, if I keep it contained.
But, is the added benefit worth the time, effort, and wife gross factor.
I know you can't help with the wife issues, but how much benefit am I loosing if I don't hot compost?
I guess in search of being more efficient with the compost process, what are the best practices? or process?
I am new to hot composting.
I heap the organics, mostly leaves.
I build one pile(a 2 sided cypress plank, 2 feet high just to give it some form and stop it from blowing and being a huge mess). It takes work keeping it together, but not too much effort. The heap has rough sticks on the bottom. Leaves and weeds and garden debri on top. It is 3-6 feet high before settling.(decomposing)
Every 2-3 years I purge this pile and incorporate into the garden and start a new pile same place.
1/2 to 3/4 of fall leaves are incorporated into the garden every year.
Last 2 years, I am getting neighbors grass clippings and put on pile, it heats a section for a short time. Prior hot composting was not by design(this wasn't either, just have been observing it). So my experience in hot composting hasn't really been intentional.
Last fall, I started a 10x16 garden extension. Wood, leaves, grass clippings, manure, garden debri, weeds, kitchen scraps..It got hot and cooled. Intentionally hot compost. Heated up with green 3 times.
Since I am fairly inexperienced at hot composting, I wonder what is the greater benefit?
Should I be putting more kitchen scraps into the cold pile for the benefit of nutrient value? I know how beneficial manure is, but I've always put it on the garden in the fall, some extra went into the compost pile. Should I get more manure to hot compost, how much will this really help increase nutrient value, if I am already adding it to the garden?
Sorry for the long explanations, but I am wanting to go with the best practices. Mostly for the nutrient supplimentation to the garden. I like the idea of minimizing landfill, but it has not been a high priority for me.
The process of incorporating kitchen scraps into the pile has not been met with eagerness on the wife's idea of what should be out back. But, she puts up with my eccentric gardening. Urea in the compost or garden has a gross factor for her. And the manure is one of the reasons she is glad to be off the farm, where she grew up.
If the nutrient value is reaaly beneficial, she will accept it, if I keep it contained.
But, is the added benefit worth the time, effort, and wife gross factor.
I know you can't help with the wife issues, but how much benefit am I loosing if I don't hot compost?
To keep the hot compost going, I started getting CG from 2 coffee houses.
I am getting 10-20 gallons of CG a week, some with filters.
Of course this is beneficial for keeping it out of the land fill.
How much will this help the garden?
With the CG, there is plenty of green material to keep a hot compost going. If I stop, how much nutrient value will be lost from not hot composting???
I am getting 10-20 gallons of CG a week, some with filters.
Of course this is beneficial for keeping it out of the land fill.
How much will this help the garden?
With the CG, there is plenty of green material to keep a hot compost going. If I stop, how much nutrient value will be lost from not hot composting???
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hendi_alex
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- Location: Central Sand Hills South Carolina
I've expressed this sentiment before, but will toss it out again, just to add to the variety of views.
Adding organic material to the soil is not rocket science. Whether mulching the surface with leaves, using a cold compost pile or a hot pile, managing a worm composter, it all results in organic matter and nutrients getting into the soil. To me the details don't matter too much. All of these hot composting recipes with aggressive management IMO are not necessary at all.
To me a balance diet represents a good parallel to composting. Obviously it is better to eat small quantities of many different food items, to get a balance of nutrients included in your diet. So the best compost is likely made from a mix of many different ingredients, both green and brown. But does that mean that a person who has limited energy or limited availability of ingredients is wasting his/her time by making some "incomplete" version of compost? For years my compost consisted of only leaves, used potting soil, kitchen scraps, and discarded weeds. This mix was perhaps 70-80% leaves. The plants always have responded very well to getting their annual dose of the resulting compost/leaf mold. For the past two or three years, aged horse manure has been added and is likely a nice addition to the mix.
Anyway, some people are very compulsive, and others are very relaxed. IMO the method of enriching garden soil should fit within the gardener's comfort zone. To me, that is more important than any particular recipe or method for preparing and/or introducing the organics into the garden. Most any source of organic material is better than no organics being added. Though personally, I try to limit sawdust and wood chips in the mix. Although I'm confident that there is in general a best way or best ways to go about composting, I'll not worry too much about it and will continue to mix together what is readily available. After all, this whole gardening thing for me is about engaging in a relaxing and rewarding hobby. As long as the plants are happy, that is what really matters to this gardener.
Adding organic material to the soil is not rocket science. Whether mulching the surface with leaves, using a cold compost pile or a hot pile, managing a worm composter, it all results in organic matter and nutrients getting into the soil. To me the details don't matter too much. All of these hot composting recipes with aggressive management IMO are not necessary at all.
To me a balance diet represents a good parallel to composting. Obviously it is better to eat small quantities of many different food items, to get a balance of nutrients included in your diet. So the best compost is likely made from a mix of many different ingredients, both green and brown. But does that mean that a person who has limited energy or limited availability of ingredients is wasting his/her time by making some "incomplete" version of compost? For years my compost consisted of only leaves, used potting soil, kitchen scraps, and discarded weeds. This mix was perhaps 70-80% leaves. The plants always have responded very well to getting their annual dose of the resulting compost/leaf mold. For the past two or three years, aged horse manure has been added and is likely a nice addition to the mix.
Anyway, some people are very compulsive, and others are very relaxed. IMO the method of enriching garden soil should fit within the gardener's comfort zone. To me, that is more important than any particular recipe or method for preparing and/or introducing the organics into the garden. Most any source of organic material is better than no organics being added. Though personally, I try to limit sawdust and wood chips in the mix. Although I'm confident that there is in general a best way or best ways to go about composting, I'll not worry too much about it and will continue to mix together what is readily available. After all, this whole gardening thing for me is about engaging in a relaxing and rewarding hobby. As long as the plants are happy, that is what really matters to this gardener.
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smokensqueal
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- Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:36 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO Metro area
2cents: You've got some very detailed questions. I think many would agree with me but composting for me is more less keeping organic material out of the landfills and then getting a nice usable product out of it. It doesn't matter if it's hot or cold you input organic material and out comes beautiful compost. What you add to it is what you feel comfortable adding to it.
As far as food scraps being yucky I would think the amount you add to your good size leaf pile would be less then yucky. It no more yucky then adding a bunch of grass IMO.
As far as exact nutrient values will change from time to time or batch to batch. You will never be adding the exact same materials every time in the exact same quantities. Will you be loosing it if you don't hot compost maybe and maybe not. Again it's all going to change with what you add.
If you are really concerned you might be able to take some to your local extension office and have them test it. I just use what I get. To me it's free and the landfills are better off.
As far as food scraps being yucky I would think the amount you add to your good size leaf pile would be less then yucky. It no more yucky then adding a bunch of grass IMO.
As far as exact nutrient values will change from time to time or batch to batch. You will never be adding the exact same materials every time in the exact same quantities. Will you be loosing it if you don't hot compost maybe and maybe not. Again it's all going to change with what you add.
If you are really concerned you might be able to take some to your local extension office and have them test it. I just use what I get. To me it's free and the landfills are better off.
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rot
- Greener Thumb
- Posts: 728
- Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:15 am
- Location: Ventura County, CA, Sunset 23
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The greater benefit
My last post somewhere on the 18th got wiped because I took too long to compose and edit and the site logged me off. So forgive me for taking a while to respond.
The greater benefit of the long slow cold composting versus the quicker hot composting seems to be the question.
Being a lazy slob I sure appreciate slow add as you go let it go for years type bin or pile. I've got three. One is ready for spilling, another has been capped and just gets watered occasionally and one being built up for six months now. I've got three hot bins too. Well warm right now. Did I mention I'm a lazy slob?
The benefit to the hot composting scheme is the heat cooks the seeds from weeds and such plus pathogens. The cost to hot composting is the work. You want to monitor the temperature and the moisture. When the temperature starts sliding from peak temperature you want to turn. One study suggested that the optimal turning rate was every 4 to 5 days. Some folks will turn daily. When I was turning each weekend I was getting 8 cu ft out of a 17 cu ft bin in a couple of months. It might have been a little rough but I mostly mulch and mix into containers. I'm a lazy slob so I'll only sift so much before I decide that's enough for seedlings and such.
The hot bins, when I truly go hot, get built at once and then I water daily– it's dry ‘round here. I'll turn them weekly and in a couple of months I'll sift some and spill the rest someplace. I love just spreading large quantities of bio-remediated organic matter.
The cold bins, I prefer the containment of bins, are started off with a 6 inch layer of mostly browns as a biological sponge on the bottom. I'll build up the sides with a mix of grass clippings and shredded paper and the middle gets all kinds of crappy stuff that I have on hand. I'll add, cover and water over and over for 6 months or so. At some point it starts reducing so I could keep adding for some time. After 6 months or so I stop adding and just water for another 18 months or so. At the end of two years or so, it's greatly reduced but just rich dark crumbly stuff. No turning or monitoring or fretting. The bummer is it takes a long time and that space is occupied for a long time. The cold bins are on pavers and the worms come in and do the work for me. Some seeds get through but they come out of the composted ground easily enough. The one that killed me was the avocado tree that sprouted from a pit. I hated the avocado when shoveling out the bin.
So, hot bins are more work but it gets you the mostest the fastest and it sterilizes some things. Cold bins are less work but take time and dedicated space. If you do the cold bins right, the added stuff will cook for about a week and you kind of get the benefit of hot composting but that's more work watering a little bit each day. Cold bins need to be on the ground or on pavers so the worms come in. Otherwise things go anaerobic and that just ain’t no good in my opinion.
I'm with smokensqueal in that I use what's on hand and don't fret about getting the right mix but for the heat you do want a mix of things. I like handi_alex’s approach and really it's just getting organics into the ground. I too get lots of coffee grounds but they go mostly onto the ground and worms dig it. The fine texture of coffee grounds tends to smother the composting bio-remediation action so I suggest using grass clippings for heat. Mix well on both accounts for heating up the ol’ pile. I once went coffee ground wild in a bin at something like 50 percent of the bin was coffee grounds. Turned into a gooey mess. I turned that sucker for a long time fixing that one.
One point about coffee grounds on the ground and they form a nice crust that keeps the moisture in but then they also form a nice crust that water will run off of too. Mulch with grass clippings on top of the coffee grounds to mitigate the crust effect. Your worms will be real happy.
The big point is to do what works for you. If you want to make it a project you can. If you just want to heap stuff up and let it rot that works too. If you want to do something in between I think You'll find that works just fine too.
Gross factor stuff just needs to be covered. A grass clipping/leaf mix seems to work best for me as cover but just leaves or just grass clippings will work. Just use what's on hand.
two cents
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The greater benefit
My last post somewhere on the 18th got wiped because I took too long to compose and edit and the site logged me off. So forgive me for taking a while to respond.
The greater benefit of the long slow cold composting versus the quicker hot composting seems to be the question.
Being a lazy slob I sure appreciate slow add as you go let it go for years type bin or pile. I've got three. One is ready for spilling, another has been capped and just gets watered occasionally and one being built up for six months now. I've got three hot bins too. Well warm right now. Did I mention I'm a lazy slob?
The benefit to the hot composting scheme is the heat cooks the seeds from weeds and such plus pathogens. The cost to hot composting is the work. You want to monitor the temperature and the moisture. When the temperature starts sliding from peak temperature you want to turn. One study suggested that the optimal turning rate was every 4 to 5 days. Some folks will turn daily. When I was turning each weekend I was getting 8 cu ft out of a 17 cu ft bin in a couple of months. It might have been a little rough but I mostly mulch and mix into containers. I'm a lazy slob so I'll only sift so much before I decide that's enough for seedlings and such.
The hot bins, when I truly go hot, get built at once and then I water daily– it's dry ‘round here. I'll turn them weekly and in a couple of months I'll sift some and spill the rest someplace. I love just spreading large quantities of bio-remediated organic matter.
The cold bins, I prefer the containment of bins, are started off with a 6 inch layer of mostly browns as a biological sponge on the bottom. I'll build up the sides with a mix of grass clippings and shredded paper and the middle gets all kinds of crappy stuff that I have on hand. I'll add, cover and water over and over for 6 months or so. At some point it starts reducing so I could keep adding for some time. After 6 months or so I stop adding and just water for another 18 months or so. At the end of two years or so, it's greatly reduced but just rich dark crumbly stuff. No turning or monitoring or fretting. The bummer is it takes a long time and that space is occupied for a long time. The cold bins are on pavers and the worms come in and do the work for me. Some seeds get through but they come out of the composted ground easily enough. The one that killed me was the avocado tree that sprouted from a pit. I hated the avocado when shoveling out the bin.
So, hot bins are more work but it gets you the mostest the fastest and it sterilizes some things. Cold bins are less work but take time and dedicated space. If you do the cold bins right, the added stuff will cook for about a week and you kind of get the benefit of hot composting but that's more work watering a little bit each day. Cold bins need to be on the ground or on pavers so the worms come in. Otherwise things go anaerobic and that just ain’t no good in my opinion.
I'm with smokensqueal in that I use what's on hand and don't fret about getting the right mix but for the heat you do want a mix of things. I like handi_alex’s approach and really it's just getting organics into the ground. I too get lots of coffee grounds but they go mostly onto the ground and worms dig it. The fine texture of coffee grounds tends to smother the composting bio-remediation action so I suggest using grass clippings for heat. Mix well on both accounts for heating up the ol’ pile. I once went coffee ground wild in a bin at something like 50 percent of the bin was coffee grounds. Turned into a gooey mess. I turned that sucker for a long time fixing that one.
One point about coffee grounds on the ground and they form a nice crust that keeps the moisture in but then they also form a nice crust that water will run off of too. Mulch with grass clippings on top of the coffee grounds to mitigate the crust effect. Your worms will be real happy.
The big point is to do what works for you. If you want to make it a project you can. If you just want to heap stuff up and let it rot that works too. If you want to do something in between I think You'll find that works just fine too.
Gross factor stuff just needs to be covered. A grass clipping/leaf mix seems to work best for me as cover but just leaves or just grass clippings will work. Just use what's on hand.
two cents
..
Thank you all for the comments.
I really have been debating how long I'll keep up with the coffee ground and how much benefit they will be. This will be the telltale year for that.
Anyway, I've worked out for one of my buddies to start getting the CG from one of the places I was getting them from. He will now have a readily available supply, till he gets tired of incorporating them.
The CG from the other place I'll keep going back. I am setting a yard of leaves to the side, to have to cover the CG and other kitchen scraps(first time I've set aside a cover material) it will keep the wife happy.
I'm going back to the old style and not worry too much about hot compost. It doesn't sound like I'm loosing much with the cold style of heap I am used to doing. It has worked for 30 years. I was just getting excited about a possible better way. But, the real issue is I am lazy and eventually would burn out on all the turning. But I'll miss seeing the steamy stuff in the morning while drinking a cup of joe.
I really have been debating how long I'll keep up with the coffee ground and how much benefit they will be. This will be the telltale year for that.
Anyway, I've worked out for one of my buddies to start getting the CG from one of the places I was getting them from. He will now have a readily available supply, till he gets tired of incorporating them.
The CG from the other place I'll keep going back. I am setting a yard of leaves to the side, to have to cover the CG and other kitchen scraps(first time I've set aside a cover material) it will keep the wife happy.
I'm going back to the old style and not worry too much about hot compost. It doesn't sound like I'm loosing much with the cold style of heap I am used to doing. It has worked for 30 years. I was just getting excited about a possible better way. But, the real issue is I am lazy and eventually would burn out on all the turning. But I'll miss seeing the steamy stuff in the morning while drinking a cup of joe.
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applestar
- Mod
- Posts: 30543
- Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:21 pm
- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
This is off topic but:
I've had that happen a time or two, since I can be long winded.
Best solution I've found is to "select all" and "copy" (<command-A> and <command-C> on Mac, don't know if it's the same for Windows) BEFORE clicking [Submit]. It'll save you a lot of frustration.
My last post somewhere on the 18th got wiped because I took too long to compose and edit and the site logged me off.
I've had that happen a time or two, since I can be long winded. Best solution I've found is to "select all" and "copy" (<command-A> and <command-C> on Mac, don't know if it's the same for Windows) BEFORE clicking [Submit]. It'll save you a lot of frustration.
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Gary350
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The compose process will use up all the nitrogen in the soil. Add nitrogen but not all at once. Most nutrient will stay in the soil but nitrogen does not stay as long. Put urea on the soil about once a week to help compose the leaves.
I have decided to dedicate 1 row of my garden to compose my tree leaves. I have lots of trees and lots of leaves. I use the lawn mower to mulch the leaves into tiny pieces then I till them into the row and add urea. I till and water add more urea once a week. I do row 1 in my garden this year then next summer I can plant in row 1 and use row 2 for the next compose row. The next year I will do row 3 and the year after that I will do row 4 an so on until I get to row 15.
I have decided to dedicate 1 row of my garden to compose my tree leaves. I have lots of trees and lots of leaves. I use the lawn mower to mulch the leaves into tiny pieces then I till them into the row and add urea. I till and water add more urea once a week. I do row 1 in my garden this year then next summer I can plant in row 1 and use row 2 for the next compose row. The next year I will do row 3 and the year after that I will do row 4 an so on until I get to row 15.
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milifestyle
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If I've peeled it, taken it out of the fridge, previously cooked it or anything else that may be from in side the house I feed it to the worms...
If I've mown it, shredded it, raked it off the lawn, cleaned it out of the rabbits cage or calf shed, then it goes in the compost heap.
If I wasn't around nature would make its own compost with fallen leaves, manures, etc.
If I wasn't here to pick it up, fruit would fall to the ground, decay and be consumed by worms and othe bacteria.
There's no need to make composting so hard. Just try and copy nature.
If I've mown it, shredded it, raked it off the lawn, cleaned it out of the rabbits cage or calf shed, then it goes in the compost heap.
If I wasn't around nature would make its own compost with fallen leaves, manures, etc.
If I wasn't here to pick it up, fruit would fall to the ground, decay and be consumed by worms and othe bacteria.
There's no need to make composting so hard. Just try and copy nature.
I like these discussions, even if they are technical because I always learn something.
I actually start off in the spring with the hot compost generated by grass clippings and shredded paper or hay and it becomes a cold pile in the fall with mostly dead leaves, green clippings and kitchen waste. I then use the compost and start over. It's still nice to know the mechanics and chemistry involved, but I'm am engineer!
I actually start off in the spring with the hot compost generated by grass clippings and shredded paper or hay and it becomes a cold pile in the fall with mostly dead leaves, green clippings and kitchen waste. I then use the compost and start over. It's still nice to know the mechanics and chemistry involved, but I'm am engineer!
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rot
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- Location: Ventura County, CA, Sunset 23
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If you're tilling raw leaves into the ground then yeah, I can see some nitrogen drift. I'm not sure how much but them microbes need to suck nitrogen from somewhere to digest the carbon in them leaves.
Why not compost the leaves first and then add to the soil?
I will use crunched leaves as a mulch to protect the surface. They'll take a long while to break down but the soil underneath doesn't dry out so much in this dry land. Haven't noticed any depletion of nitrogen but then I cover with a lot grass clippings and I'm not that observant.
..
If you're tilling raw leaves into the ground then yeah, I can see some nitrogen drift. I'm not sure how much but them microbes need to suck nitrogen from somewhere to digest the carbon in them leaves.
Why not compost the leaves first and then add to the soil?
I will use crunched leaves as a mulch to protect the surface. They'll take a long while to break down but the soil underneath doesn't dry out so much in this dry land. Haven't noticed any depletion of nitrogen but then I cover with a lot grass clippings and I'm not that observant.
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Gary350
I've double-dug 1-3 feet of loose leaves into the soil, in the fall for year and never needed a nitrogen suppliment.
This year, I've added 6" to 2 feet of ground(storm debri) wood and leaves(some on top and some double dug). All will be double dug, before planting. I am fearful, the nitrogen depleation issue may come into affect this year, but the dirt is looking good(maybe a bit too much wood chips).
I started(September) a new(free form) raised bed(10x16). 100% rough wood chips, fine wood chips and ground leaves(storm debri) leaves, ground leaves, coffee grounds, kitchen scraps, grass clippings, garden debri. There was a wheel barrow sand and wood ash and some of the garden debri had dirt on the roots. It has composted down from 4+ feet to under 2 feet. I am putting 1-2 feet wide dirt rows 4" deep across the bed for planting into. There is no question, it will need Urea/Nitrogen suppliment. This is going to be a test for me to see how well it does in almost pure compost(with lots of fresh/6 month composted wood)
I've double-dug 1-3 feet of loose leaves into the soil, in the fall for year and never needed a nitrogen suppliment.
This year, I've added 6" to 2 feet of ground(storm debri) wood and leaves(some on top and some double dug). All will be double dug, before planting. I am fearful, the nitrogen depleation issue may come into affect this year, but the dirt is looking good(maybe a bit too much wood chips).
I started(September) a new(free form) raised bed(10x16). 100% rough wood chips, fine wood chips and ground leaves(storm debri) leaves, ground leaves, coffee grounds, kitchen scraps, grass clippings, garden debri. There was a wheel barrow sand and wood ash and some of the garden debri had dirt on the roots. It has composted down from 4+ feet to under 2 feet. I am putting 1-2 feet wide dirt rows 4" deep across the bed for planting into. There is no question, it will need Urea/Nitrogen suppliment. This is going to be a test for me to see how well it does in almost pure compost(with lots of fresh/6 month composted wood)
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hendi_alex
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The Helpful Gardener
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Alex, you needn't use lime, just add bacteria...
"Greens" like we mix with our "browns", in this case leaves, are really about nitrogen, which bacteria need a lot of (low C/N). Greens can be like grass clippings, manures, food waste, anything with a high N is basically "green". Bacteria are also triggered by sugars, as they are by root exudates from plants, so EVERY compost tea recipe calls for molasses to boost bacterial side. When you boost bacterial levels, you boost a predator/prey reaction that gets a lot of trophic levels feeding, and their little exoskeletons add lots of calcium as they munch and be munched. Bacterial soils tend towards base and fungal soils tend towards acidic, hence leaves ('brown", carbon) go acidic and manures ("green", nitrogen) go baser. You are adding the calcium carbonate you get with lime, without the magnesium of dolomitic lime (and yes you can get the calcerous stuff SOMETIMES, but not regularly, and it still involves a mining operation and trucking etc.; the biological way just involves some molasses water and some bacteria you likely have in your pile already).
Nature always balances itself given the option, and it does it pretty quickly. Mineralized calcium stays that way for a long time without the biology to etch it back out of the soil (weak acid reaction); I have seen really high calcium levels in soils that were completely unavailable to plants, becuase it was mineralized without the system to undo it; the biology was dead. Balance your bacterial to fungal ratios and your ph balances itself, your soil chemistries unlock and provide for plants and compost cooks a lot better...
HG
"Greens" like we mix with our "browns", in this case leaves, are really about nitrogen, which bacteria need a lot of (low C/N). Greens can be like grass clippings, manures, food waste, anything with a high N is basically "green". Bacteria are also triggered by sugars, as they are by root exudates from plants, so EVERY compost tea recipe calls for molasses to boost bacterial side. When you boost bacterial levels, you boost a predator/prey reaction that gets a lot of trophic levels feeding, and their little exoskeletons add lots of calcium as they munch and be munched. Bacterial soils tend towards base and fungal soils tend towards acidic, hence leaves ('brown", carbon) go acidic and manures ("green", nitrogen) go baser. You are adding the calcium carbonate you get with lime, without the magnesium of dolomitic lime (and yes you can get the calcerous stuff SOMETIMES, but not regularly, and it still involves a mining operation and trucking etc.; the biological way just involves some molasses water and some bacteria you likely have in your pile already).
Nature always balances itself given the option, and it does it pretty quickly. Mineralized calcium stays that way for a long time without the biology to etch it back out of the soil (weak acid reaction); I have seen really high calcium levels in soils that were completely unavailable to plants, becuase it was mineralized without the system to undo it; the biology was dead. Balance your bacterial to fungal ratios and your ph balances itself, your soil chemistries unlock and provide for plants and compost cooks a lot better...
HG
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The Helpful Gardener
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Bacteria will ramp up on sugar but that is not a sustainable source; think of it as doing shots but if they keep that up all night, well, ... 
We want to do both things, fast and slow (beer AND shots), so why choose? Add both...
Boosting the bacterial levels boosts their predators and so on and so on, but let's get back to the title of the thread. What are we trying to accomplish? (I think the title is a false syllogy as it is one and the same, but I suspect that was Rot's intent, to portray the compost PILE as an unecessary step, and just sheet compost in place.) In sheet composting in place on the bed, we are doing all the above AND providing mulch, but we are doing it very slowly and we cannot add manures and foodscraps if we are doing food crops (trying to avoid E.coli and vermin infestation). Sheet composting has it's place, to be sure, but to those of us looking to diversify soil biology, reduce kitchen and yard waste, and maximize potential nutrition for our plants, thermophilic composting makes excellent sense, and yes, that means digesting OM, AS we make compost...
Way to play Devil's Advocate, Rot, but I do both styles myself, as I want to do both things...
HG
We want to do both things, fast and slow (beer AND shots), so why choose? Add both...Boosting the bacterial levels boosts their predators and so on and so on, but let's get back to the title of the thread. What are we trying to accomplish? (I think the title is a false syllogy as it is one and the same, but I suspect that was Rot's intent, to portray the compost PILE as an unecessary step, and just sheet compost in place.) In sheet composting in place on the bed, we are doing all the above AND providing mulch, but we are doing it very slowly and we cannot add manures and foodscraps if we are doing food crops (trying to avoid E.coli and vermin infestation). Sheet composting has it's place, to be sure, but to those of us looking to diversify soil biology, reduce kitchen and yard waste, and maximize potential nutrition for our plants, thermophilic composting makes excellent sense, and yes, that means digesting OM, AS we make compost...
Way to play Devil's Advocate, Rot, but I do both styles myself, as I want to do both things...
HG
HG, Love the shots and beer analog 
To us simpletons it makes sense.
My original thread question, maybe should have been, How much benefit am I loosing if I don't hot compost?
A current yard issue?
So, if I had alot of heavy woody stuff(logs and heavy sticks) I want to decompose. first is it practicle to do anything but bury them or chip them(I don't own that kind of a chipper/grinder), or put in a pile way out back if you want to use in the garden someday?
Or, can logs be composted? (neighbor has a tree we have chopped into firewood and we don't need that much wood) Can grass, ucg and other greens be added, ?put some sugar on it? and keep adding the nitrogen sources, will the bacteria break this down kinda quickly? under 2 years.
Or is fungus the only option? Likely 4-6 years.
To us simpletons it makes sense.
My original thread question, maybe should have been, How much benefit am I loosing if I don't hot compost?
A current yard issue?
So, if I had alot of heavy woody stuff(logs and heavy sticks) I want to decompose. first is it practicle to do anything but bury them or chip them(I don't own that kind of a chipper/grinder), or put in a pile way out back if you want to use in the garden someday?
Or, can logs be composted? (neighbor has a tree we have chopped into firewood and we don't need that much wood) Can grass, ucg and other greens be added, ?put some sugar on it? and keep adding the nitrogen sources, will the bacteria break this down kinda quickly? under 2 years.
Or is fungus the only option? Likely 4-6 years.
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The Helpful Gardener
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AS's tip is on point, and kind of where I was headed with this...
Bacteria doesn't break down wood. Oh, there's a few that gnaw on this or that component piece, but in the long run, fungus breaks down wood...
Most soils I see are bacterial (even chemical culture doesn't kill ALL bacteria or even it wouldn't work) and getting things bacterial is easy. Getting things fungal is harder, much harder. Introducing leaf mold is a good way to get the fungii that break down wood, and most good compost has a very active fungal component (even manures usually have a fungal side; there is a spiral hyphae I only see in cow manures). There is your wood breakdown...
Speed is a matter of surface area, and aeration, so if you leave it whole, slow. Halve it, a little faster, chip it? Way faster. Turn it? Faster yet... (although that can break up hyphae some too; some debate on letting fungal compost sit or turning it, or something in between. I'm on the fence...)
Thermophilic composting (hot) brings a lot of characters to the dance and does things fast, but it can waste a few cooler inclined microbes along the way. Slow composting doesn't do it as fast or bring as much diversity, but preserves the usual supects (local flora and fauna). Why choose? I do both... sometimes I want fungal compost (slower) and sometimes I want bacterial compost (fast and hot)...
HG
Bacteria doesn't break down wood. Oh, there's a few that gnaw on this or that component piece, but in the long run, fungus breaks down wood...
Most soils I see are bacterial (even chemical culture doesn't kill ALL bacteria or even it wouldn't work) and getting things bacterial is easy. Getting things fungal is harder, much harder. Introducing leaf mold is a good way to get the fungii that break down wood, and most good compost has a very active fungal component (even manures usually have a fungal side; there is a spiral hyphae I only see in cow manures). There is your wood breakdown...
Speed is a matter of surface area, and aeration, so if you leave it whole, slow. Halve it, a little faster, chip it? Way faster. Turn it? Faster yet... (although that can break up hyphae some too; some debate on letting fungal compost sit or turning it, or something in between. I'm on the fence...)
Thermophilic composting (hot) brings a lot of characters to the dance and does things fast, but it can waste a few cooler inclined microbes along the way. Slow composting doesn't do it as fast or bring as much diversity, but preserves the usual supects (local flora and fauna). Why choose? I do both... sometimes I want fungal compost (slower) and sometimes I want bacterial compost (fast and hot)...
HG
AS,
Thank you for the thread,
Once again, this forum and members have turned on some lights. I am always learning or at some times having defined what I have been doing for years.
1986, I bought a house, I cut down an 85 foot Buckeye tree pushing the foundation of that house in Akron. It was a huge 85 footer.....I was one of the fastest shovelers this side of the Grand Tetons, I could have given Paul Bunyon and Big Blue a run for their money digging the mighty Mississippi.
Being a Gardening enthusiast and wanting to start planting that next spring, I burried the tree as a start to the garden, it was more than 20 x 50 garden spot, dug 3 foot deep trenches and used steel bars to roll the trunk pieces into the trenches. Lots of trunk, branches and sticks twigs, leaves. It was a huge dirt mound when I finished. I worked it every day 4-8 hrs, for over a week. This was basically a double dug technique(term I learned on this site).
That fall, I had an oportunity to come to Cincy for new career.
I kept the house in Akron and rented it to my old roomates, grad students and general misfits. They did nothing the first year, 2nd and 3rd they had small 10 x 20 foot garden.
Fourth year my sister moved in. She had a terrific garden, says it was the best dirt she ever had. She used the whole thing garden and fed her husband and four children.
I never grew anything in that spot because I moved, but it was said to be one great garden spot.
Basically, If me or the neighbor want to start a garden extension, or rebuild a raised bed, the excess firewood we have now would be a good starter with some dirt on top.
I wish I could explain how many times I've used HUGELKULTUR/ENPI and can swear to the affectiveness of this technique, but have never been told the name of it. Grandpa and dad used to say, "just bury it". They are first and secong generation American from German transplants. Guess I better call mine HUGELKULTUR.
Thank you for the thread,
Once again, this forum and members have turned on some lights. I am always learning or at some times having defined what I have been doing for years.
1986, I bought a house, I cut down an 85 foot Buckeye tree pushing the foundation of that house in Akron. It was a huge 85 footer.....I was one of the fastest shovelers this side of the Grand Tetons, I could have given Paul Bunyon and Big Blue a run for their money digging the mighty Mississippi.
Being a Gardening enthusiast and wanting to start planting that next spring, I burried the tree as a start to the garden, it was more than 20 x 50 garden spot, dug 3 foot deep trenches and used steel bars to roll the trunk pieces into the trenches. Lots of trunk, branches and sticks twigs, leaves. It was a huge dirt mound when I finished. I worked it every day 4-8 hrs, for over a week. This was basically a double dug technique(term I learned on this site).
That fall, I had an oportunity to come to Cincy for new career.
I kept the house in Akron and rented it to my old roomates, grad students and general misfits. They did nothing the first year, 2nd and 3rd they had small 10 x 20 foot garden.
Fourth year my sister moved in. She had a terrific garden, says it was the best dirt she ever had. She used the whole thing garden and fed her husband and four children.
I never grew anything in that spot because I moved, but it was said to be one great garden spot.
Basically, If me or the neighbor want to start a garden extension, or rebuild a raised bed, the excess firewood we have now would be a good starter with some dirt on top.
I wish I could explain how many times I've used HUGELKULTUR/ENPI and can swear to the affectiveness of this technique, but have never been told the name of it. Grandpa and dad used to say, "just bury it". They are first and secong generation American from German transplants. Guess I better call mine HUGELKULTUR.
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The Helpful Gardener
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All soil is sucessional. The goal for nature is always to shoot for 100% fungal soils; in other words the way plant groups succeed each other is both reliant on, and responsible for, the fungal to bacterial ratios...
We start at bare rock and the first thing to show up is lichen, who exudes weak acids from it's microroots and starts things off. Then moss, then weeds, then grassland (almost where we want it), THEN a balanced F:B our sweet spot for veggies, then shrubs, then trees, then evergreens, where we finally get back to the sweet spot for Nature, 100% fungal. This is always where Nature is headed; sometimes she interrupts herself (flood, fire, drought, landslide), and sometimes we do it (bulldozer, chemical fertilizers, pollution, etc.), but we bump back a level every time we do damage. With fertilizers we can fool ourselves into thinking the soil is just fine, because the plant continues to grow, but we are knocking the soil fertility backwards so that weeds and mosses are happy and grass is not, or maybe grass is happy, but if you are growing veggies that is not where you want to be...
Hugelkultur is carbon sequestration when done organically; we are turning the carbonous tree into carbonous soil, LOTS of carbonous creatures, and carbonous plants thet we will eat or recompost. This works/has always worked/will always work. The chemical thing doesn't...
HG
We start at bare rock and the first thing to show up is lichen, who exudes weak acids from it's microroots and starts things off. Then moss, then weeds, then grassland (almost where we want it), THEN a balanced F:B our sweet spot for veggies, then shrubs, then trees, then evergreens, where we finally get back to the sweet spot for Nature, 100% fungal. This is always where Nature is headed; sometimes she interrupts herself (flood, fire, drought, landslide), and sometimes we do it (bulldozer, chemical fertilizers, pollution, etc.), but we bump back a level every time we do damage. With fertilizers we can fool ourselves into thinking the soil is just fine, because the plant continues to grow, but we are knocking the soil fertility backwards so that weeds and mosses are happy and grass is not, or maybe grass is happy, but if you are growing veggies that is not where you want to be...
Hugelkultur is carbon sequestration when done organically; we are turning the carbonous tree into carbonous soil, LOTS of carbonous creatures, and carbonous plants thet we will eat or recompost. This works/has always worked/will always work. The chemical thing doesn't...
HG
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rot
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My point in the question of digesting versus producing compost was to address the issue of how do you want to compost. Yes digesting organic material and making compost are one in the same but digesting is just that while compost is an end product. While I still want lots of compost, my expectation, my goal is to digest as much as I can. I'll take that beer thank you.
Means versus ends is what I had hoped to be considered. If the end is to divert organic material from the trash stream and you're not interested in making mountains of compost as fast as you can then consider some method where it's easy to empty your waste, cover and water. Let the worms and the bacteria and the fungi do the work and leave the turning and monitoring to those who are seeking mounds of compost for their gardens.
At first I wanted as much compost as fast as I could make it so I worked it by turning every fourth day or so and watching the temperature and checking the moisture content. Nowadays with so much going on elsewhere I find I don't have the time or inclination to work it so much but I really take some pride in remediating some organic material otherwise destined for curbside pick up. I can do that at a rate that meets what we produce without knocking myself out. Well, except for newspaper. If anyone can recommend good ways to shred newspaper, I'm listening.
After a couple of years of trying this and that I've settled onto a method that works for us and our lifestyle. In the end, the best method for composting is the method that works for you without making you so much changing your life around and returns what you want.
I don't want to steer anyone into any one method for making compost. Worms, bins, piles, sheet, mushrooms all work. You can be as lazy or as elaborate as you like.
Interesting discussion on hegulkulture. I'm just wary of lots of wood in the ground out here in termite country especially just after tenting the house - an ordeal with our menagerie. Another reason for me to be wary - termites produce methane.
...
My point in the question of digesting versus producing compost was to address the issue of how do you want to compost. Yes digesting organic material and making compost are one in the same but digesting is just that while compost is an end product. While I still want lots of compost, my expectation, my goal is to digest as much as I can. I'll take that beer thank you.
Means versus ends is what I had hoped to be considered. If the end is to divert organic material from the trash stream and you're not interested in making mountains of compost as fast as you can then consider some method where it's easy to empty your waste, cover and water. Let the worms and the bacteria and the fungi do the work and leave the turning and monitoring to those who are seeking mounds of compost for their gardens.
At first I wanted as much compost as fast as I could make it so I worked it by turning every fourth day or so and watching the temperature and checking the moisture content. Nowadays with so much going on elsewhere I find I don't have the time or inclination to work it so much but I really take some pride in remediating some organic material otherwise destined for curbside pick up. I can do that at a rate that meets what we produce without knocking myself out. Well, except for newspaper. If anyone can recommend good ways to shred newspaper, I'm listening.
After a couple of years of trying this and that I've settled onto a method that works for us and our lifestyle. In the end, the best method for composting is the method that works for you without making you so much changing your life around and returns what you want.
I don't want to steer anyone into any one method for making compost. Worms, bins, piles, sheet, mushrooms all work. You can be as lazy or as elaborate as you like.
Interesting discussion on hegulkulture. I'm just wary of lots of wood in the ground out here in termite country especially just after tenting the house - an ordeal with our menagerie. Another reason for me to be wary - termites produce methane.
...
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The Helpful Gardener
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And they are terrors down south; glad they are less prevalent and virulent up here... 
Point taken Rot. Your examples of "less is more" handling and procedure are centered on Nature doing the work and I have found that while our timelines are often divergent, there is hardly a job in the garden that Nature cannot do , and better than us and compost certainly fits that bill...
For me, with an AR spouse, all waste must be addressed, handled and contianed in the shortest amount of time; home pride allows a few dandelions, but not multiple piles. So fast turns on hot compost is my best tool to keep peace in the valley...
HG
Point taken Rot. Your examples of "less is more" handling and procedure are centered on Nature doing the work and I have found that while our timelines are often divergent, there is hardly a job in the garden that Nature cannot do , and better than us and compost certainly fits that bill...
For me, with an AR spouse, all waste must be addressed, handled and contianed in the shortest amount of time; home pride allows a few dandelions, but not multiple piles. So fast turns on hot compost is my best tool to keep peace in the valley...
HG
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rot
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Yes the AR spouse. I currently have three hot, more reasonably warm, bins and three cold bins. There is no room to say that way is better than this. What works works and there is no doing anything about it.
I feed as I choose. Sometimes I'm more concerned about keeping hot bins going and feed the new one and sometimes I'm concerned with just covering something up like a hummingbird or butterfly or squirrel that will only upset the wife who insists our yard is a sanctuary for all three.
I made it work for me. I made it work for us. A pretty jar in the kitchen collects the weeks compostables and my job is to make sure that once a week it is emptied and rinsed. Order has been imposed upon the universe and there we stand.
It is not the most efficient operation. I doubt we produce anything near the best compost out there but, it's alright.
So the 50 gallon curbside green waste barrel never goes out to be picked up for the municipal pick up that supplies the local compost supplier but that means more room for others. The dark green trash barrel is usually less than half full. The gift of the dogs neither makes the local surfers down stream sick nor does it go into a landfill. We've started. We've made some small progress.
It works for us and if we can make it work it's not a great stretch that others, who at least appear less dysfunctional, can make a dent, scratch the surface, too.
Some time ago on another board there was a discussion on how to convince more people to compost and I basically shut down the discussion by pointing out that composting would have to be easier and cheaper than just emptying trash into a barrel. I'm a lazy slob with an AR wife and I can say: it can be done. No BFD. Don't stress it. Just start. Let it work out and it will. You'd be amazed.
One day we'll learn, and remember, that peace in the valley is worth the work.
...
Yes the AR spouse. I currently have three hot, more reasonably warm, bins and three cold bins. There is no room to say that way is better than this. What works works and there is no doing anything about it.
I feed as I choose. Sometimes I'm more concerned about keeping hot bins going and feed the new one and sometimes I'm concerned with just covering something up like a hummingbird or butterfly or squirrel that will only upset the wife who insists our yard is a sanctuary for all three.
I made it work for me. I made it work for us. A pretty jar in the kitchen collects the weeks compostables and my job is to make sure that once a week it is emptied and rinsed. Order has been imposed upon the universe and there we stand.
It is not the most efficient operation. I doubt we produce anything near the best compost out there but, it's alright.
So the 50 gallon curbside green waste barrel never goes out to be picked up for the municipal pick up that supplies the local compost supplier but that means more room for others. The dark green trash barrel is usually less than half full. The gift of the dogs neither makes the local surfers down stream sick nor does it go into a landfill. We've started. We've made some small progress.
It works for us and if we can make it work it's not a great stretch that others, who at least appear less dysfunctional, can make a dent, scratch the surface, too.
Some time ago on another board there was a discussion on how to convince more people to compost and I basically shut down the discussion by pointing out that composting would have to be easier and cheaper than just emptying trash into a barrel. I'm a lazy slob with an AR wife and I can say: it can be done. No BFD. Don't stress it. Just start. Let it work out and it will. You'd be amazed.
One day we'll learn, and remember, that peace in the valley is worth the work.
...
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The Helpful Gardener
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- Location: Colchester, CT
Cynthia, see PM. Not polite talk at the table... 
Rot, my friend, there you have it. Find what works and do it. I try to make sure that if it grew in my yard, it stays here. If we all do, GHG emmisions will decreas considerably, and we will think about what we do and it's impacts more when we actually have to handle things ourselves. IMHO, that's just healthy...
HG
Rot, my friend, there you have it. Find what works and do it. I try to make sure that if it grew in my yard, it stays here. If we all do, GHG emmisions will decreas considerably, and we will think about what we do and it's impacts more when we actually have to handle things ourselves. IMHO, that's just healthy...
HG
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hendi_alex
- Super Green Thumb
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- Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:58 am
- Location: Central Sand Hills South Carolina
Scott,
Back in the 1970's my father in law decided to plant pine trees on the family farm. My wife and I hated the idea as the property was established in a fairly mature oak hickory climax forest here in sandhills S.C. Lloyd clear cut about 60 acres of forest and planted his trees. About ten years later he decided to also plant pines in the rich bottom land that had been farmed previously and planted another fifty acres of pine trees. For the past ten years we have been taking periodic cuttings from those pines and have sold them for pulp or for lumber. We will continue the cuttting until most all of the pine trees are gone but will not replant, except perhaps some of the bottom land area. I'm hoping to have enough years left to see the pines gone and to see the mixed forest well along its way to being restored. There is no telling what will happen after we are gone, but the hope is that either someone who loves a mixed forest ends up with the property, or that perhaps it becomes too expensive to clear land for planting a pine plantation.
To the point, I was interested in your comment regarding [what grows here stays here.] That is a practical idea/approach for a casual home owner or land owner. But for anyone who uses their land for commercial use, how does that concept apply? And wouldn't the greatest application of that concept, even for an individual, lie in a simple lifestyle where very little material is imported into your home/property as well. When you read the paper or favorite magazine, or use other paper products, you are using some of our or someone else's exported timber. The same is true for all other imported products that you use. Anyway, I'm just wondering how your concept of [what grows here stays here] could be appied in some way to commercial enterprise.
Back in the 1970's my father in law decided to plant pine trees on the family farm. My wife and I hated the idea as the property was established in a fairly mature oak hickory climax forest here in sandhills S.C. Lloyd clear cut about 60 acres of forest and planted his trees. About ten years later he decided to also plant pines in the rich bottom land that had been farmed previously and planted another fifty acres of pine trees. For the past ten years we have been taking periodic cuttings from those pines and have sold them for pulp or for lumber. We will continue the cuttting until most all of the pine trees are gone but will not replant, except perhaps some of the bottom land area. I'm hoping to have enough years left to see the pines gone and to see the mixed forest well along its way to being restored. There is no telling what will happen after we are gone, but the hope is that either someone who loves a mixed forest ends up with the property, or that perhaps it becomes too expensive to clear land for planting a pine plantation.
To the point, I was interested in your comment regarding [what grows here stays here.] That is a practical idea/approach for a casual home owner or land owner. But for anyone who uses their land for commercial use, how does that concept apply? And wouldn't the greatest application of that concept, even for an individual, lie in a simple lifestyle where very little material is imported into your home/property as well. When you read the paper or favorite magazine, or use other paper products, you are using some of our or someone else's exported timber. The same is true for all other imported products that you use. Anyway, I'm just wondering how your concept of [what grows here stays here] could be appied in some way to commercial enterprise.
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The Helpful Gardener
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- Location: Colchester, CT
Well that obviously changes the dynamic, especially if one is using an earth produc. If we are selling lumber, than the stuff has to go sometime. However...
Lumbering in the current fashion (as being romanticized on the tube in several places) is all about clear cutting and taking every stick you can. Most lumber taken today is softwood evergreens; we should not forget that that is the climax ecosystem Nature is always trying to get to in successional growth. But there are methods that do not intterupt the the natural cycles as hard as clear cutting; leaving mother trees, cutting alternating allys, rotating quadrangles, any of these aloow for faster replacement and better ecosystem. Yet they are generally spurned by the industry as "not cost effective" or "too much work". I have tried to move industry and have come to the realization that industry only moves at two whims; the dollar and public opinion, which are somewhat linked and both in the hands of the homeowners, who can make a difference in their yards as well. So I find outlets like this to be more productive overall...
Your state DNR likely runs a nursery that grows many species of native trees and shrubs; rather than not planting I'd avail myself of this inexpensive source and choose some real wildlife mast plants; oaks and native hollies and azaleas and blueberries and hazelnuts...well the list goes on. We can do a good job of building habitat when we wrok off Mother's menu and create great divcersity. I would consider leaving some pine to an area, rather than run the ecosystem completely off your property (dislocating who knows how many other species) and creating multiple other ecosystems besides. Mowing an area and keeping it tall grass and wildflowers, another of red maple swamp, and another of mixed hardwood all create areas where they meet called ecotones; an interface between two different ecotypes that actuall triples the species count. Areas like that are of huge value to wildlife and one of the reasons we can have such great effect (it is soometimes called the edge effect) in our backyards; we have a lot of edge to any yard. Think multiple ecotones...
I think the important takeaway is, commercial or residential, understand the effects of what you are doing, and try to minimize them as much as possible. Do good when you can to offset your damages, and Nature rewards in ways uncounted...
HG
Lumbering in the current fashion (as being romanticized on the tube in several places) is all about clear cutting and taking every stick you can. Most lumber taken today is softwood evergreens; we should not forget that that is the climax ecosystem Nature is always trying to get to in successional growth. But there are methods that do not intterupt the the natural cycles as hard as clear cutting; leaving mother trees, cutting alternating allys, rotating quadrangles, any of these aloow for faster replacement and better ecosystem. Yet they are generally spurned by the industry as "not cost effective" or "too much work". I have tried to move industry and have come to the realization that industry only moves at two whims; the dollar and public opinion, which are somewhat linked and both in the hands of the homeowners, who can make a difference in their yards as well. So I find outlets like this to be more productive overall...
Your state DNR likely runs a nursery that grows many species of native trees and shrubs; rather than not planting I'd avail myself of this inexpensive source and choose some real wildlife mast plants; oaks and native hollies and azaleas and blueberries and hazelnuts...well the list goes on. We can do a good job of building habitat when we wrok off Mother's menu and create great divcersity. I would consider leaving some pine to an area, rather than run the ecosystem completely off your property (dislocating who knows how many other species) and creating multiple other ecosystems besides. Mowing an area and keeping it tall grass and wildflowers, another of red maple swamp, and another of mixed hardwood all create areas where they meet called ecotones; an interface between two different ecotypes that actuall triples the species count. Areas like that are of huge value to wildlife and one of the reasons we can have such great effect (it is soometimes called the edge effect) in our backyards; we have a lot of edge to any yard. Think multiple ecotones...
I think the important takeaway is, commercial or residential, understand the effects of what you are doing, and try to minimize them as much as possible. Do good when you can to offset your damages, and Nature rewards in ways uncounted...
HG
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hendi_alex
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 3604
- Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:58 am
- Location: Central Sand Hills South Carolina
My dad always said to [leave things better than you find them.] For me that applies to land 'ownership' which is really stewardship and represents a more transient relationship than many would like to think. In central S.C. most climax forests are dominated by oak and hickory. Thankfully the central portion of our property consists of about 40 acres of swamp land that could not be clear cut, which is dominated by oaks and other hardwood trees. The pressure placed upon the land by tree farming of pine trees is terrible in this state. We will vitually eliminate pines on our 130 acres parcel, but it will still be surrounded on three sides by pine plantations, which go through regular cycles of clearcutting, planting, thinning, to eventual clearcutting again. There is always plenty of open field transition growth following a clear cut. There is always an imbalance of pine forest in the area. Along our 2.7 mile stretch of rural highway, about 80-90% of the land is either cleared or is planted in pines. The natural mature forests for the most part only continue exist in the wet swampy areas.
We clear cut about ten acres of pines right around our home area last year. That is in preparation for the other pines being harvested sometime in the next five to eight years. The older group of pines has been gradually thinned and there is a nice undergrowth of oaks and other hardwoods, just waiting for the opportunity to get sunlight and take off. We were very selective with our cutters and told them not to damage any hardwoods unless absolutely unavoidable. My intention is to allow the forest to reseed itself from the many native species that continue to grow in the area. A few additional native species of shrubs and trees will be brought in, but will mostly be allowed to reseed and spread naturally. Some transition areas will be maintained, but mostly at firebreak areas or at boundaries near roadways, surrounding the home site, and a NG pipeline right of way.
Our view is to allow this parcel to become an small oasis as it returns to being a natural forest much as most of the surrounding forest was as recently as 30-40 years ago.
We clear cut about ten acres of pines right around our home area last year. That is in preparation for the other pines being harvested sometime in the next five to eight years. The older group of pines has been gradually thinned and there is a nice undergrowth of oaks and other hardwoods, just waiting for the opportunity to get sunlight and take off. We were very selective with our cutters and told them not to damage any hardwoods unless absolutely unavoidable. My intention is to allow the forest to reseed itself from the many native species that continue to grow in the area. A few additional native species of shrubs and trees will be brought in, but will mostly be allowed to reseed and spread naturally. Some transition areas will be maintained, but mostly at firebreak areas or at boundaries near roadways, surrounding the home site, and a NG pipeline right of way.
Our view is to allow this parcel to become an small oasis as it returns to being a natural forest much as most of the surrounding forest was as recently as 30-40 years ago.
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The Helpful Gardener
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applestar
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How small do you need to shred them? I don't do this myself but I suppose the best and fastest way to manually shred newspaper is a yardstick -- preferably metal. Lay out the paper several sheets thick -- put down the yardstick and rip away. It may be easier on the floor - step on the stick for more weight but on the table is probably easier on your back. If you have little kids, they'll be thrilled to be allowed to stand on the table and stand on the yardstick for ya!
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The Helpful Gardener
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