User avatar
ElizabethB
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2105
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:53 am
Location: Lafayette, LA

De-clutter

I am 62 years old and I am disgusted by the junk and clutter in my life. It is depressing.

I have spent the last month cleaning and de-cluttering my kitchen, pantry and laundry room. I have emptied every cabinet and drawer in my kitchen. Every thing has been cleaned. I have removed excess utensils, baking pans, tongs, pots and pans that we never use. My 5' table is covered with " Go Away" stuff.

The amount of clutter - ie items not used on a regular basis astounded me.

How did this happen? How did my home become a repository for junk and clutter? There have been days that I could only tackle one cabinet and or drawer. The junk was simply overwhelming. G does not understand the concept of use or lose. I caught him rooting through boxes - taking stuff out and putting them back in drawers and cabinets. -wall-

It will take me many months to work my way through the house cleaning and de-cluttering.

I am happy with what I have accomplished. I am anxious about the rest of the mess I have to deal with.

As I age I have less tolerance for clutter. It causes stress that I do not need. Just having my kitchen, pantry and laundry room cleaned and organized gives me a feeling of relief.

OKAY - that is my rant for the day.
Elizabeth - or Your Majesty

Living and growing in Lafayette, La.

When weeding, the best way to make sure you are removing a weed and not a valuable plant is to pull on it. If it comes out of the ground easily, it is a valuable plant. ~Author Unknown

User avatar
sweetiepie
Green Thumb
Posts: 397
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:18 pm
Location: York, ND (Zone 3b)

Re: De-clutter

I agree, I don't like clutter and I will let husband keep things if they have a place.

But lets face it, he has an extreme problem getting rid of things, even broken things. He may use it someday, so he says. This place does not help because it has several out buildings and he will let me box stuff up and stack it in there. He is fine with that but has no clue what is in there and it is out of my sight.

At times I have thrown a piece of this or that away, such as his t-shirts that are from 7th grade, paper thin and no longer fit. But I don't like to do that, I wish he would just let go. But when the drawer doesn't shut, it has to go.

He is fine if I can re-home items usually but most people do not like old things like we do and still use the items. Though I have given lots of household items that are in duplicate to my son as he has just left the house.

So I understand your rant and someday I will have to clean out the attic and go through those sheds. Hopefully that happens before I die or my kids will be completely overwhelmed.

imafan26
Mod
Posts: 11681
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:32 am
Location: hawaii, zone 12a 587 ft elev.

Re: De-clutter

:oops: I have to admit I am hoarder. I have a hard time throwing stuff away and over the years I have bought a lot of stuff and some things are in their original packages unopened. I even have unopened Christmas presents.

I actually am better at saying no to buying more stuff and it is easier to do so now, but I still manage to keep growing the pile anyway. I need to do a good cleaning too. I am sure I have a lot of things in the freezer that is no longer edible and I have actually found a few cans that are ready to pop and one gallon of peaches actually did pop and it took be awhile to find it buried behind other things.

I know part of my hoarding is psychological and really part of my anxiety and OCD tendencies. I try to fill empty spaces as a substitute for the emptiness I feel in my life. De cluttering would be good, but it is sometimes really hard to let go.
Happy gardening in Hawaii. Gardens are where people grow.

User avatar
KeyWee
Senior Member
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 2:50 pm
Location: West Kentucky

Re: De-clutter

I do not understand the tendency to hoard. My mother is a hoarder and, at 85, it increases her confusion one-hundred-fold. I am the opposite of a hoarder ~ a chronic organizer. People say I am "anal" but that is NOT it ~ I want to SIMPLIFY MY LIFE. Like you, Elizabeth, I am 60 and feel that I want to only place my attention on what I want to do and NOT on things that get in the way of my purpose. Clutter deters that purpose.
When we moved at age 50, I decided to down-size BIG time. Other than a few keepsakes, I retain nothing that I don't use. Every drawer and closet is a dream of efficiency AND freedom. Freedom from junk and crap that keeps me from finding what I want to lay my hands on NOW.
Results? I have (almost) never regretted tossing, selling, or giving away something I have had no use for in years. However, I do have to deal with my husband starting every sentence with "where", as in "where is the this or that" ~ because I am the only one who knows EXACTLY where everything is.
Oh and side note ~ I am officially done. Every drawer, closet, shelf is finished. So you see Elizabeth, there is an end to it all. But then sometimes, I think of a better way, and ...........................

User avatar
rainbowgardener
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 25279
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: TN/GA 7b

Re: De-clutter

We have our house on the market to sell. In order to do that and have it ready to sell, we had to do a severe de-cluttering. We did rent a storage unit and put some stuff in storage, but we have gotten rid of a TON of stuff. The guy at the local Salvation Army recognizes us!

It has really taught us some lessons! I love our house so much more de-cluttered. It suddenly became elegant, when before the best you could say was cozy. The simplicity is a great relief and creates serenity and beauty. I really recommend it to all us folks who are aging and have been in one place a long time (we've been here 14 years). It is amazing how much STUFF you accumulate, even when you don't buy much/ shop much/ hoard. All those years of Christmas presents, birthday presents, anniversary presents... These days I tell people NO MORE STUFF!! If you want to gift us with something, edibles or experiences, tickets to things, etc. Since we have to keep it immaculate all the time, in case of showings, we are learning how to do that. Good training and we intend to keep our new place when we have one, this clean and de-cluttered.

There are lots of tips on-line about organizing and de-cluttering. America is the land of too much (too much stuff, too much food, too much entertainment, etc) and we all need to work against it.
Twitter account I manage for local Sierra Club: https://twitter.com/CherokeeGroupSC Facebook page I manage for them: https://www.facebook.com/groups/65310596576/ Come and find me and lots of great information, inspiration

User avatar
KeyWee
Senior Member
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 2:50 pm
Location: West Kentucky

Re: De-clutter

Way to GO, rainbow ~ we rest our case(s). De-cluttering makes ALL the difference, no?

User avatar
rainbowgardener
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 25279
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: TN/GA 7b

Re: De-clutter

Yes and thanks....

Incidentally this https://www.zillow.com/homes/4024-Paddoc ... ati-oh_rb/ has pictures of our house in its current de-cluttered state, with the real estate listing, in case you know anyone looking for a lovely home in Cincinnati.
Twitter account I manage for local Sierra Club: https://twitter.com/CherokeeGroupSC Facebook page I manage for them: https://www.facebook.com/groups/65310596576/ Come and find me and lots of great information, inspiration

pepperhead212
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1708
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:52 pm
Location: Woodbury NJ Zone 6B

Re: De-clutter

I have gotten rid of a number of things the last few years, not garden items, but kitchen and workshop. This was mainly because I would buy an item that served a particular purpose better than the original, which was still around! So I have gone through things with this in mind; not so much "I haven't used this in xx years, so I'll get rid of it", since as soon as you get rid of something, you will need it again! LOL This is particularly true in a workshop. SOW, there is where I could be considered a hoarder, as I throw very few pieces of wood away. But it's all well organized...usually. :()
Dave

User avatar
sweetiepie
Green Thumb
Posts: 397
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:18 pm
Location: York, ND (Zone 3b)

Re: De-clutter

rainbowgardener, your place is beautiful! Wishing you lots of luck!

User avatar
Allyn
Green Thumb
Posts: 480
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: Mississippi Gulf Coast - zone 8b

Re: De-clutter

A couple of months ago, we moved into a 400-square-foot house (that's not a typo - it's 400), and I agree with Elizabeth; I just don't have the patience anymore for clutter. I was appalled at the amount of stuff we had accumulated, and it was so liberating to get out from under it. I was ruthless when we moved. More stuff went to the trash bin and to Salvation Army than we took with us. I think my husband panicked a little. He raised a few "but I might need that" protests (both his father and mother have hoarding tendencies), but I persuaded him that if he hasn't needed it in 12 years, he probably won't ever and we just can't manage to warehouse every single thing we might possibly ever need at some time in the future. On a couple of things, he made a good argument, so we kept the items; but on most things, he saw my point. Now I am satisfied that there is nothing on the floor but feet, rugs and furniture legs; I can see the baseboards and I can see the floor in the closet.

Rainbowgardener, your house is absolutely charming.

User avatar
rainbowgardener
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 25279
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: TN/GA 7b

Re: De-clutter

Thanks for the compliments! No nibbles on selling it yet, though...

Wow 400 sq feet for the two of you! Part of the tiny house movement. Is yours one of those on wheels, so you can move it?

Image
https://tinyhousepins.com/wp-content/upl ... 00x450.jpg

Image
https://tinyhousetalk.com/wp-content/upl ... any-07.jpg

Maybe not - by these standards, your place is big! :) The second one is described as 170 sq ft inside, not counting the deck.

I would love it if you would show us a few pictures, say more about how that all works for you. Most of the tiny houses have a loft space for sleeping...
Twitter account I manage for local Sierra Club: https://twitter.com/CherokeeGroupSC Facebook page I manage for them: https://www.facebook.com/groups/65310596576/ Come and find me and lots of great information, inspiration

User avatar
Allyn
Green Thumb
Posts: 480
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: Mississippi Gulf Coast - zone 8b

Re: De-clutter

rainbowgardener wrote:...Wow 400 sq feet for the two of you! Part of the tiny house movement. Is yours one of those on wheels, so you can move it?...
We looked at those Tumbleweed houses (https://www.tumbleweedhouses.com) and I drew a floorplan to suit our needs. We were looking for a suitable trailer to build on when this property was offered to us. The 'house' here is really just a run-down little cabin -- a 19' x 19' room with a small "wet" addition (kitchen and bath), but it's on an acre of property out in the country on a single-lane, dead-end road that runs off a single-lane, dead-end road. The house is a dump; it's been neglected, but it has good bones. I'd be embarrassed to take pictures of it now, but we're slowly getting it fixed up. I like small living spaces because it doesn't cost much to heat and cool. When we got right down to separating what we "want" from what we "need," we found that what we "want" wasn't really all that important.

I arranged the furniture to create living areas -- a couple of free-standing bookshelves to separate the TV/sitting area from the sleeping nook and a free-standing storage panty to section off the computer nook. I've left an area open for a small wood-burning stove that we'll have installed before this winter. The walls are eight feet, but the ceiling is vaulted to 10 feet in the middle so there is still a spacious feeling. We put in a lot of vertical storage. We installed 20-inch open wire shelving all around the room at a height above the door openings to utilize what would have been 'wasted space'. I make just about everything from scratch in the kitchen and I thought the small kitchen was going to be a problem. It turns out that it works just fine as long as I have a piece of counter large enough to roll out pie dough or knead bread, and good storage organization takes care of the rest. We have very few knick-knacks; I get the newspaper, magazines and craft patterns in PDF or other electronic form; most of our books are on Kindle, so we're essentially a paperless household. That right there took care of a lot of our clutter.

GrowMoore
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:25 pm
Location: USDA Zone 5 Illinois

Re: De-clutter

I enjoyed reading this and knowing that others feel the same way I do. Usually around spring time I get the urge to purge. I want the house to be simplified enough so that I can enjoy being outside after the long winter, working on my gardens. Some thoughts that have helped me to let go are: "only keep the best" this is good for any collections of things that I have, like books and pottery. For those items we "may need some day" I tell myself that if that happens then I will go and find it at a thrift store, so why bother storing it now? It's amazing how emotionally tiring getting rid of items can be, so many decisions so I just do a little at a time and when I start to get tired I quit for the day.

We are gearing up for a major clearing out garage sale. What has worked for me is to go through an area, like a closet or bin and pull out everything that needs to go. Then I pull out the stickers and put a price on it before I box it up. When it's time for the sale (and if it Ever stop raining) they will be all ready to go. The last time we did this we had so much stuff in our sale that people were asking us if it was a 5 family sale...lol. Nope just a major clearing out, no box left unsearched kind of sale. It felt great afterward! That was 10 years ago, time to do it again.

User avatar
rainbowgardener
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 25279
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: TN/GA 7b

Re: De-clutter

There's a lovely little book you might be interested in:

Twelve by Twelve: A One-Room Cabin off the Grid & Beyond The American Dream Kindle Edition
by Bill Powers (Author)

https://www.amazon.com/Twelve-One-Room-C ... mall+cabin

But I think he only lived there a year or so and he was there by himself... :) and of course 12x12 = 144 = about 1/3 the space you have, or on a per capita basis, 3/4 the space you have.

Keep us posted how it is working for you!
Twitter account I manage for local Sierra Club: https://twitter.com/CherokeeGroupSC Facebook page I manage for them: https://www.facebook.com/groups/65310596576/ Come and find me and lots of great information, inspiration

User avatar
Allyn
Green Thumb
Posts: 480
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: Mississippi Gulf Coast - zone 8b

Re: De-clutter

I added it to my Wish List. It looks like a good read. :)

gumbo2176
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 3058
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:01 am
Location: New Orleans

Re: De-clutter

I kind of live by the principal that if I don't use something a few times in the course of a years time, I really don't need it. My wife, on the other hand, still has stuff her kids had as tots and they are 30 and 25 now.

She did surprise me recently when she got into our closet and the spare closet where she keeps more clothes and actually filled 3 large bags of clothes that will NEVER fit again, or are so out of date that we may not live long enough for them to come back in style. It would be like me keeping a polyester leisure suit--------if I ever owned one in the first place.

Last summer I built all new raised panel doors and drawer fronts to refaced all my kitchen cabinets and painted the interiors. Everything came out of them and that was my cue to toss several boxes of stuff. In my younger days we would refer to the extra stuff as "Camp Goods" meaning they went to someone's fishing/hunting camp for duty.

My utility/storage room is in dire need of a good housecleaning, but that is my wife's sanctuary for the most part and every time I mention taking a day to sort through things, she gets all defensive---so, it remains, for now.

User avatar
ElizabethB
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2105
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:53 am
Location: Lafayette, LA

Re: De-clutter

I am pleased and amazed by all of the responses. RBG your house is so nice. I hope you sell it soon. In Lafayette that house would go for 50K more just because of the decking. Love it.

I am kind of at a stand still. I need to get into G's office. Paper is one of the biggest clutter offenders. He has check books from the 1970's. -wall-

My Love keeps bills and other paperwork that have never been opened because he does his business on line.

His office is also the repository for his hunting gear. A complete nightmare. At least 3/4s of his hunting clothes are never worn. He collects ball caps and duffle bags.

I have read a lot about hoarding. It is usually based on feelings of insecurity or a compensation for loss. Hoarders need to be treated with gentle, loving care. Just the suggestion of cleaning out the office can cause my Love to have an anxiety attack.

RBG any PM advice would be appreciated.

Since G is not co-operating on office cleaning I am tackling "my room". The spare bedroom is where I keep all of my clothes. I have a 5' x 5' closet and a double dresser for all of my clothes. Since my space is over full "The Sally" will be getting a very nice donation of clothes and shoes. :(

It hurts me to think of the issues G has with junk. I understand some of the reasons for his hoarding and it hurts my heart. I just wish I could help him understand the freedom and joy of an uncluttered house.

I don't know which is more depressing - living with the junk or going through the process of getting rid of it. While de-cluttering the kitchen, pantry and laundry room there were days that I could only tackle one drawer or one cabinet because I was overwhelmed by the junk.

RBG I actually envy you in a way. Moving forces you to make those hard decisions about keep, toss or donate.

G wants to have a garage sale. NOT going to happen. Much TOO much work - the work would be on me. I have done garage sales twice. 2 x too many. Never again.

There will lots of donations to the Sally.

I do not donate to Goodwill because they are a "for profit" organization. Their overhead and salaries are huge. :cry: Only a few pennies of every dollar donated actually goes to charity. I do give them credit for work training programs.

I used to donate to Faith House - a women and children's shelter. I quit because they limit their donation sites and times and they do not issue receipts for donations. :(

Another donation option is St. Joseph's Men's Shelter - a shelter for homeless men. Unfortunately men are often forgotten about and ignored. There is also a local thrift shop called Hand Up Thrift - HUT. They support local charities.
Elizabeth - or Your Majesty

Living and growing in Lafayette, La.

When weeding, the best way to make sure you are removing a weed and not a valuable plant is to pull on it. If it comes out of the ground easily, it is a valuable plant. ~Author Unknown

Susan W
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1858
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:46 pm
Location: Memphis, TN

Re: De-clutter

I've been following this with interest, guilt and a chuckle. I see the de-clutter abode and sense the person has NO interests, has storage, or far bigger house than me.
I tend to keep, given. I have a moderate sized bungalow, 1200 sq ft is main part, fortunate for 1/2 basement that does have laundry, heat/AC, freezer. Now, stuff my living including my room, bath, 2 home based businesses in the main part. There are layers. The smallish kitchen has it all, food, frig, cooking etc + seed starting, yarn dyeing, candle making stuff. Also I am a scratch cook, nothing fancy, but bake bread, have fresh produce etc.
Oh the activities, businesses. The herbs and plant starts. That takes some indoor space. Then the very long standing 18th c re-enacting, fibers including weaving, dyeing, sewing and more. Who else keeps canvas, tent poles and tent stakes on the front porch, along with the usual.

I have to ask, if you are in small quarters and garden at all, where are the tools and supplies? Storage sheds? Kitchen? For the weekly farmers market I just keep the tables and pop-up canopy in the mini van. Other items such as office box, bags and packing stuff box, fiber and candle inventory, both fan and heater all are in the liv room. Of course! (shared with 2 looms and the g-sons corner with toys) Yes the sofa and lo-fo TV and stereo in that area.

Sometimes it gets to me and I work back an area, and also realize I am living, have interests and skills and do. I am older than most of you FWIW. Won't change any time soon, I hope.
Have fun!
Susan

imafan26
Mod
Posts: 11681
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:32 am
Location: hawaii, zone 12a 587 ft elev.

Re: De-clutter

I had a 515 sq ft townhouse. It was the first place I bought. It had a little courtyard. It was basically 3 rooms. A bathroom that could hold two people as long as one was on the toilet and the other in the tub. The door barely cleared the toilet. The sink was is in the bedroom and it was only big enough for a twin or double bed and one lamp table. It had a 5 ft closet and I learned to use baskets in the closet because there was no space for a dresser. The living room/kitchen had the front door and sliding door out to a small courtyard which was roughly about 10ft by 20 ft.

The kitchen was a blind galley and the washer and dryer was in the kitchen (bad plan in Hawaii). All of the water heaters for the building was located on the side of the building. When the heater broke, I am glad, at least mine was accessible.
I had the same set of dishes for 30 years (I have finally replaced most of that) and I still have some of my original pots and tableware. I learned to Alton Brown my kitchen and have multi function tools. I built a slide out drawer myself for the cabinet to make it easier to get to the pots and pans. It worked, but it was not pretty. I have a hard time with square corners. (But since then I have discovered angle hardware, that makes that so much better. I had a modular couch, an entertainment stand and a rattan coffee table with a glass top in the living room.

I moved to this house which was originally 912 sq ft but had good storage for a 70's house but a very small galley kitchen.
I loved to bake so a lot of my extra baking equipment gets stored in the spare bedroom along with the holiday ornaments.

In 1991 after each morning having the four of us my husband, myself and our two cats cram into a half bath that was 29 inches wide and about 60 inches long with a pocket door and a 19 inch sink and a toilet and only room for half of a toilet rug set, we (I) decided we either look for a house with a better plan or build and extension. My husband did not want to move so we added a new master bedroom and bath above the garage. It also connected the previously separate carport to the house and added 200 sq ft there. It ended up doubling the 10x10 bedroom to 10x20 with another 10 ft long closet added to the existing 5 ft closet. The other bedroom became an internal room so it was converted to a small living room and foyer and the new master was a garage. 16ftx18ft, a computer room 8ftx10 ft
a bathroom about 10ftx10ft and a 10ftx8ft walk in closet. With a sliding door and balcony and mostly windows on two sides of the room and no windows behind the bed. We started with a 3Br 1-1/2 bath and ended up with a 3Br 2 1/2 bath, but the bedrooms are a lot bigger and the living room is a lot smaller.

I never got a dresser since I have gotten used to using baskets in the closet.

I love the spaces in the house but I have collected a lot of things since 1989.

My printer just broke and someone gave me an old one that was not compatible so I had to buy another new one. It was an opportunity for me to do a little decluttering since both printers had to go along with the cd's and papers that came with them and ink cartridges from 2 printers ago. Baby steps, one corner at a time.
Happy gardening in Hawaii. Gardens are where people grow.

User avatar
Allyn
Green Thumb
Posts: 480
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: Mississippi Gulf Coast - zone 8b

Re: De-clutter

Susan W wrote: ...I have to ask, if you are in small quarters and garden at all, where are the tools and supplies? Storage sheds? Kitchen?...

I cross-stitch and sew. My craft supplies are kept in storage tubs on shelves above the sleeping nook. My gardening supplies are kept in a little storage closet (3 ' x 4') attached to the house but the door is outside. I have a nice size covered porch that at the moment I can't get to the porch swing though the bags of peat moss, perlite, vermiculite and compost. Those supplies are in anticipation of fall planting, so once I get my tubs (I'm going to try a bunch of SIPs this fall) those supplies will go away.

User avatar
kayjay
Green Thumb
Posts: 413
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:14 am
Location: Southern Ontario

Re: De-clutter

This is a topic rather near and dear to my heart. I learned to declutter well over a decade ago, even though I was in a large space - but it was an awkward loft apartment with a weird layout and no storage space. I found myself on https://www.flylady.net and never looked back. I can't recommend her methods and her mailing list highly enough, especially for people who are finding themselves overwhelmed, depressed, feeling like a failure, etc with respect to getting their home in order. I find her 'tone' a little weird, and the web design is crap, but if you don't like it, ignore it and just do what she says to do. It sounds crazy but it works. And it's like gardening! You start out small, with baby steps, and let the process grow.

I thought I was just kinda learning some housekeeping tips, but what I didn't realize was what an impact it would have on my depression, anxiety and probable adult-onset ADHD. I never realized how subtly stressed-out I was over a disorganized apartment until it went away and I felt that peace in my home.

I've moved 14 times in my life, so I can't really relate to hoarding, either... but I can see how it's different for people who've been in one home for a long time. Nothing forces decluttering like moving! "Do I really need this enough to carry it to the truck? Can I just buy it at the dollar store or thrift store in the future if I really need it?" Ask yourself that 1000 times while you're packing and poof, you're decluttered. LOL.

Fiance and I bought our first home a year and a half ago and I'm determined to keep it 90% decluttered. I say 90% because the basement is the 'dumping ground'. My goal is to never fear answering the door, or having someone text me saying they're dropping by.
KayJay
Toronto 'burbs, zone 5b

My Garden, 2020

User avatar
kayjay
Green Thumb
Posts: 413
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:14 am
Location: Southern Ontario

Re: De-clutter

Susan W wrote:I have to ask, if you are in small quarters and garden at all, where are the tools and supplies?
Right by the patio door. Notice there's no closet, no mudroom, no nothin'. I keep them on a little shelf in front of the window. I just try to keep it neat. The rake is outside on the patio leaning against the house. I thought of getting one of those stand-up lockers, but there's no point, really. I can bring the rake downstairs in fall. Our landscaping is done by the condo, so no lawnmower or weed whacker. :D If that wasn't the case, we would have just gotten a weed whacker because the lawn is that small... and I'd keep it in the basement.

Image
imafan26 wrote:I never got a dresser since I have gotten used to using baskets in the closet.
Same here. Our closets are actually quite big, but the rooms themselves small. The closets already had built-in organizer shelves.
KayJay
Toronto 'burbs, zone 5b

My Garden, 2020



Return to “Non-Gardening Related Hoo-ha and Foo”