Water Softeners

[pickupguy07]

OK, this is kind of 'nature related'.
I am on a well, and my water started tasting funny. I've always had a American Standard Commercial Water Conditioner hooked in.
I really didn't know if it was working or not,.. but I know it's not now.

I was wondering if someone may be able to steer me in the right direction to see if I might be able to fix mine before shelling out $500 for a new one.
I had a chemical test gone by the local AG agency (can't lay my fingers on it right now) But it had the usual 'stuff'. Too much manganese, calcium, and iron.

To be honest I'm kind of dumb about water softners, and I don't trust going to some big box store to get info. MOST of the times the people working there know even LESS than I do... and just want to sell you something.

I'll stop now and let a few folks respond before getting too involved.
It's nice to be back on the forum after being off all winter.
Happy Gardening

[Fig3825]

I find it rather comical that every time I come on here to catch up, there's always something being talked about that is relevant to my life...

My wife and I are building a house and I did some recent research on RO Systems, Chloramine Reduction Systems and Water Softeners. We considered getting a chloramine system and a softener, but in the end, we opted not to due to the cost of everything that was recommended and settled on a dual tank RO System with piping to our icemakers, drinking water and pot filler fixture. We needed two tanks to develop enough pressure to trip the solenoid on the SubZero's icemaker. I think we got the whole setup for less than $500. That's not cheap in the RO world, but it's cheap for the system we got!

Anyway, I went online and ended up finding a great resource that you might exploit. I spoke to a gentleman named Scott (just call the number on the website...Craig will most likely answer the phone and will leave a message for Scott. Scott spends most of the day on the phone, but he WILL call you back). Scott was obviously a plumber at some point in time and is VERY knowledgeable about water properties and what types of systems will reduce certain types of pollutants and minerals. He's also one of the nicest sales reps I've ever spoken to, so be careful, he will make you want to give ALL of your money to him and will NEVER ask for it.

I told him what the city/county water testing results were for this past year with regard to water hardness and he told me how long it would take before my fixtures started getting the white deposits on them!

I promise this guy will know how to help you. Just give him a call.

Click for awesomeness:
Reverse Osmosis Superstone

[pickupguy07]

Thanks for the reply.
I have one question (I you found out)
Will this RO system eliminate (or reduce) the rotten eggs smell in the water.
I was looking on a name brand water softener companies FAQ and it stated a water softener would NOT eliminate the odor, just the minerals getting threw the pipes.

I should of said that currently I DO run my household water threw two filters back to back. The first one is one of those 'string' type looking filters that filters out large particles. The next one is a filter that is supposed to filter out odor and taste. But these things are from 6 - 8 dollars each, and I have to change them about once a month. SO at $15 / month that adds up to $180 / year. Trying to cut that cost substancially if possible

[Fig3825]

The intent of the RO System is to remove foul stuff from the water at the tap. The smaller RO systems - for under your kitchen sink, run anywhere from $150-$450, depending on what you really want. And, again, unless you want to invest $2500 in a commercial 'whole house' system, I doubt this is the right path for you.

Softeners only remove minerals from the water and use carbon contact to do so. These type of filters, which are more tuned to 'whole house' incoming water just soften the water. I don't think they'll remove the odor.

I found this online and thought it might help:

EHow-Remove Smell from Water

I don't know what your smell is, but if it's a sulphur smell (like rotten eggs), then this may help.

[pickupguy07]

thanks for the link.. i DO appreciate it.
However we been down the "bleach it" road, and the fix is only temporary.

Currently I have a whole house commercial system (It an American Standard). Right now it's not working, and it'd be awesome if I could find someone that knew anything about getting it going again.
thanks

[pickupguy07]

I been doing some more research and found it looks like I need to have the water 'aerated'.
From what I can understand the water has to exposed to the air, and it releases hydrogen sulfide from the water.... removing the smell
Seems the hydrogen sulfide is caused by lack of oxygen in the water. Thus when the water is exposed to oxygen it helps solve the problem.
But I'm still confused how to set one up.

If anyone has any experience chime in please

[Dillbert]

>>not working

hopefully you had your "raw" water tested and also the "treated" water.

all water softening / treatment systems are not the same - even if they "look the same."
some solve only specific "hard water" minerals, some nitrates, some radon, etc.

all the systems I'm familiar with require routine maintenance.

ion exchange units periodically need to have the resins replaced - in fact hydrogen sulfide is a prime factor in premature resin 'failure'

changing out resin, etc, is not a DIY project.

who installed the system? why is it not possible to locate a reliable company that services these things? there is the question of has it malfunctioned mechanically or have the "active ingredients" just "worn out"

if you're on a well, likely some/most/all of the area is on wells - ask around for recommendations of a reliable company.

>>wary of a big box store
that's good, because you'll likely not find anyone there that knows anything except the price.

>>two filters
the string thing just removes solid particles, the second is likely a charcoal filter.

the charcoal filter is the one that would be removing hydrogen sulfide.
if it ever "worked" odds are you have very low levels of the gas - but then again it doesn't take much to notice it. exactly how much hydrogen sulfide is in the water also plays a part in what kind of treatment will be most economical.

the string filter should have a differential pressure gauge. when it gets clogged up - as indicated by high pressure going in and low pressures coming out, that's when it needs to be changed - not by the calendar. if there's not much dirt in your incoming water, an element could last 2-3 years.

the charcoal filter is pretty much 'by the calendar' as other than noticing the smell, there's no easy way to know if the odor absorbing capacity has been reached.

>>need to aerate the water
do check more thoroughly into this option - it's not quite as simple as you may believe.

[pickupguy07]

thanks for the response.
I'll see if I can fill in any blanks, and maybe you could help me some more...

1) I had the raw water tested, as since the water conditioner wasn't working I assume they would be pretty close.

2) My Dad installed the system, He is a certified plumber, electrician (he's been in business for 40 years, and built many houses, etc) Being that it worked so well for so long IMO the installation is not the problem. About the only people you can ask about this type thing in my area is the people that drill the wells,.. they have a reputation for trying to sell people things they don't need. I know we have some around.. all are over 30+ miles away. No doubt before spending a lot of money on a system it'd be worth the drive. Someone did suggest a guy I could call, I haven't had time to do that yet.

3) You are right, it is the string filter, and the charcoal filter. As far as a specific "pressure gauge" neither of the filter have any type of gauge. They are just 'in-line' filters coming straight from the well. When the water pressure gets low(er) and any taste or smell develops I just change them (both). This varies but is usually between every 6 to 12 weeks.

4) I just had the water tested, and the 'out of range' results were as follows:
Iron .41 ppm - maximum .30 ppm
Calcium 30.7 ppm - no maximum
Magnesium 3.5 ppm - no maximum
Manganese .11 pmm - Maximum .05 ppm
Water Hardness 91 ppm - 5.3 gr/gal - moderately hard
pH 7.2 ( desired pH range 6.5 - 8.5)

Our Ag department does not test for hydrogen sulfide (don't know if it's possible really)
I know most of these number don't tell you much, but I just wanted to include them...

I have been wondering if maybe the area under the pump has filled in (it's been there 20 years) and the pump is sitting in some silica or sediment. I was wondering if I raised the pump up 6 or 8 feet if that may help. Might help the iron.. but since the hydrogen sulfide is caused by lower oxygen in the water, I doubt it would help that problem.

Thanks again for the reply.
Always greatful for input.

[Dillbert]

>>as since the water conditioner wasn't working
what leads you to think it is not working? obviously you do, but unless I missed something - the background to that is missing.

you've got a salt tank....
that tells me it's an ion exchange system.
do you keep salt in the tank?
when was the last time the resin was changed out?

you've not indicated how long you've been in the house or whether the system has ever been maintained. if no one has done anything to it in 20 years, it's high time.
one doesn't just "replace" a system unless it is broken beyond economical repair -
one does need to maintain these systems - they are not a "install and forget about it for the next ten thousand years."

>>well hole filling in
nothing to do with dissolved minerals.
solid particulates, yes.

>>no test for hydrogen sulfide
your nose will tell you all you ever wanted to know about it - do you have the rotten egg odor?

>>installation is not the problem
okay - but things break, wear out, cease to function as designed.....

>>find someone
yellowpages.com
water treatment systems, atlanta, ga
30 listings

or call American Standard with the nameplate data and ask them who maintains their equipment in your area.

I would encourage you to find a qualified individual and have them check the system.

[pickupguy07]

thanks again..
1) Yeah the softener isn't working.... when it flows from the brine tank back into the canister, there is a clear bulb the water goes through. The bulb is empty, so I know no water is flowing either direction.

2) salt is kept in the tank, on occasion it has started to bridge over, so we have taken the salt out and replaced it. According to a person we spoke with they said the resin is such it never has to be changed (don't know just going off what i was told)

3) We've been in the house 20 years. The manual is old and in bad shape... but I can see an area when it says the system is "maintenance free", but after 20 years maybe "something" has to be done,.. but without a manual no way of knowing "what" to do.

4) Yeah we have the rotten egg smell. EVERYTHING in the house is 20 years old. SO when the small got bad last summer we figured the stink rod had gone out in the old water heater... replaced the heater, nothing changed. The smell is "worse" when we take a shower and use the hot water, but always present.

5) As I said no place is within 30 or 40 miles of here... so it's not like you can just drive downtown and talk to someone. The folks I have called on the phone want to come out and look at it (Sometimes they want to charge for a service call - other times I been told they wouldn't begin to work on a unit that old, but they'd like to sell me New one.)

6) I checked with American Standard and they don't made or maintain water softeners or water 'conditions' any more, and could not recommend anywhere to get info. Also there is not any name plate date (model, serial number etc) anywhere in the unit. Sounds odd, but we have looked it over thoroughly. Ni plate attached, and nothing 'stamped' in. Only place we haven't been able to look is on the bottom (of course it is sitting in place and can't be moved unless the water lines are cut loose)

So that's why i am trying to ask folks like you all, for some help, or know where I can get some info. I have found just a couple forums that talked about water softeners, and posted in several of them.. but no one has posted a reply. I'm kind of running out of options (besides just tearing it apart, and seeing if we can fix it ourselves. You can't break it if it's already broken I suppose.

I appreciate the help and info,... I kind of feel like I am chasing my tail here.... I am kind of guessing the only way I'll get this fixed is if we find some 'older' person who has knowledge on this item, and could share some info. Hard to find info on a product that has been discontinued, especially when the manufacture don't service them any more.
Just thought I'd see what I could learn before just jumping in and tearing the thing apart..

Thanks again

[Dillbert]

>>1) Yeah the softener isn't working.... when it flows from the brine tank back into the canister, there is a clear bulb the water goes through. The bulb is empty, so I know no water is flowing either direction.

so it's
- broken and non-functional,
- obsolete,
- you can't find anyone even willing to look at it.

if it's that old and that obsolete / unsupported, I wonder if you can even get parts for it regardless of who tears it apart and figures out what's wrong?

sounds like it's time to buy a new system from a stable local company that will be there over the years to service it.

>>stinks worse with hot water
that's normal. heating water up drives the gases out of the liquid - so you're much more apt to notice it when using hot water than cold.

[pickupguy07]

well that's kind of what I was thinking...
But I'm on disability with a VERY limited income...
So I at least wanted to see what I could find out before shelling out $500 for a new one.
Don't cost anything to o a little research...

[Dillbert]

the basic operation of water conditioners/softeners is simple:

raw water flows through a tank of "resin" aka "chemicals" which are designed to remove the offending "thing"

different resins handle different issues - pH, iron (and other metals), calcium (and other minerals), nitrates/nitrites, radon gas, etc and a whole long yadda yadda list of nasties.

not every resin can be blended/constructed to do 100% of the needed tasks - for example a previous house system had two 'resin tanks' - one primarily for pH and one primarily for the nitrate/nitrite problem.

after a short period the ability of the chemicals in the the resins to "capture" slash "remove" the nasties is "used up"

so a highly salty solution is "back flushed" through the resin tanks - the salt causes the "nasty ions" to "fall off" the resin bonds and they are flushed to a drain.

then some raw water is flushed through the tank so you don't get a batch of super-sea water at the sink - that flushing volume is also routed to a drain.

then the raw water is routed through the system to the house surge tank.

so there's a host of valves, timers, solenoids, seals, o-rings, plumbing and ports that eventually fail - virtually everything electric or mechanical fails, it's only a question of time.

after 20 yrs of heavy salt exposure, the internals of those components could be pretty dicey.

>>"replaced the salt"
does not need 'replacing' - the rock salt is used up by the flushing process - it's a 'replenishment' issue. if the system has been running for years with no salt, that's not a good thing.

>>no water in the glass
unless you are standing there as the system is going through its cycle, you won't see anything in the sight glass.

>>stink rod
actually, the sacrificial anodes used in water tanks to combat bad pH can make the rotten egg smell worse. so if it had been eaten away, the smell would have "improved" not "got worse"

being on a fixed income doesn't make things easy, for sure - some things to put on into the decision making process:

pH - this is likely to be the biggest issue. if the pH is too acid it'll eat copper / iron pipes, and brass/bronze/pot metal faucets, fixtures. an out of whack pH can cost thousands and thousands to re-plumb every water "thing" in the whole house. that means tearing out walls, plaster, dry wall, etc. really really bad, it etches porcelain (sinks, tubs, toilets . . )
if you have a pH problem, it must be corrected.

metal/mineral content - there's "ideal" and there's "acceptable range" and there's "and so what difference does it make?"

organic contaminates - these are more insidious - do have a complete analysis run.

hydrogen sulfide - most ion exchange systems are ineffective - but there's always progress - make sure there's something in writing if the salesperson says the system cures cancer, baldness, bad politicians, provides instant weight loss and produces free energy to boot.

aeration - this process has to be accomplished in a tank "open" to the atmosphere - the "aeration" mechanically strips the hydrogen sulfide gas out of the water - but once stripped, the stinky stuff has to go away, or it is reabsorbed back into the water. so the water has to be pumped up from the well, goes thru x,y,z, then to an aeration tank - which has to be vented, then you need a second pumping system to pressurize the household supply tank.

activated charcoal is cheap - look for a filter system that does not entail proprietary 20 billion dollar per element costs.

oh, make lemonade before you compost the rinds (g)

[pickupguy07]

LOL... you crack me..
seriously... thanks for the info.
You've given me more info that several "professionals' I've talked to.
After we talked last night I did some research on the "aeration" systems,.. they look pretty detailed (and EXPENSIVE)

As far as pH the water test I had done says it is 7.2 - it says 6.5 - 8.5 is acceptable.

As far as pipes,.. at least I am lucky there; I'll avoid the "stuff in the walls" issues as everything is CVPC pipe,.. of course the faucets, shower heads, etc could be an issue later on.

Oh one other thing. I know we talked about replacing the salt. Sometimes mine never seems to disappear or melt. It can stay 3 or 4 years. Don't know how that happens. But the brine will stay about 1/2 salt, and 1/2 water.

I think you are correct that I'll need some type of aerator to fix my smell problem. I read a couple different places on manufacturers sites that said Water softeners will not remove the rotten eggs small... SO that cuts down my options.

Thanks again so much for the conversation, and the info.
One thing Dad was smart enough to plan ahead for was the time this thing "might" quit working. We have a cut off valve going to the unit, and one on the pipe coming out of the unit. SO we can close those and by-pass it if/when we need to.
At least we can tear the whole thing out and not worry about having no water while we check it out.

[Dillbert]

>>salt never seems to disappear or melt. It can stay 3 or 4 years.

sounds like the system has been broken for quite some time - that is not a "normal" usage pattern.

how frequently the system back flushes depends on the severity of the problem(s). how fast the salt tank is depleted depends on back flush frequency and tank size - but 3 or 4 years without replenishing clearly indicates the system has been down for a long time.