Appliances

[Fig3825]

Does anyone have any experience with the following with regard to appliances? My wife and I are building a new house and are shopping.

We are looking at Wolf 48" for the range (haven't decided on a range top or a free standing at this point)... She also likes the Dacors. I want her to look at American Range, Capitol and DCS but I think she's got the wow factor of a more well known brand on her brain. While Wolf is a good range, I think there are others that are just as good, if not better, like my opinion of the Capitol "Culinarian". Wife saw a Thermador she likes in the range tops today, but I heard they are overrated bigtime as well.

We are looking at a Jenn Air 48" refrigerator but are also looking at the same size in a Liebherr. Wife wants a SubZero, but I refuse to buy on just for the name when the quality doesn't appear to be there in research on the web.

We also need wall ovens, wall micro, warming drawer, dish washer, wine cooler and a good vent hood. I kinda like the Dacor wall ovens, but I know nothing about them...yet. If we go with Dacor for the ovens, then we'd most likely get the Dacor warming drawer and micro also. Wolf range, most likely wolf range hood. Probably Jenn Air wine cooler, but my wife found a Danby that she likes but I haven't seen it or looked it up yet. Finally, we like the Bosch dishwasher...

Anyone have experience with any of the aforementioned appliances that they can share or links to good data, reviews or comparisons?

[jal_ut]

We have had a Bosch dishwasher for 12 years. In that time the pump that empties the tub went out one time. Other than that, it has been faultless. It will even clean the dishes. That is more than I can say for some other brands we have had.

I have never heard of most of those brands you mention. We had a Jenn Air range at one point, but I was not impressed. It was electric and we could not keep elements in it.

[Charlie MV]

What are you after in a range. All the names you mention are good ranges except Jenn Aire. The biggest difference in the lowliest GE and the highest end oven is about 10 or 15 degrees. The very expensive ovens maintain a temperature +- 3 or 4 degrees. The mid to low end ovens will have a 10 to 15 degree difference. Big deal. A $2 oven thermometer will solve that issue.

I think a lesser cost built in oven ,either double or single depending on how big you cook, is the best choice. A separate gas cook top is hard to beat for maintaining perfect heat but harder to clean. If cleaning is an issue the glass electric cook tops are good. I built really high end cabinets before I retired. Most of my customers ended up with built in electric ovens and gas cook tops. Buy the 36 inch cook top.

Dishwashers need to be quiet. Buy a German or Swedish DW. If you want a wood panel on the front, do your homework and talk to your cabinet maker. Not all DWs will work with inset doors. Most of these DWs lack only in the area of drying dishes. The manufacturers often leave off drying elements to save power. Even a really expensive DW can wind up with wet plates overnight. They all have good food grinders now so pre-cleaning isn't so important. Some DWs come as drawer type rather than door type. You can save water and energy by using only one drawer.

I like Sub Zero refers because that's what Sub Zero does best. They also offer versatility that other makers don't like drawer freezers and again, inset door capability. It's worth asking about whether the freezer stays below freezing too. That matters with the ice maker. Ever have big clumps of ice in the ice maker. That's because the freezer sometimes gets above freezing.

I would rely on Consumer Reports type reviews because appliance companies are bought and sold all the time. Go with ratings more than name or price for that matter. Buy from an appliance dealer rather than a big box store. They will demonstrate the appliance and actually know what they are talking about. Just be firm with getting what you want rather than their priciest model. If you use your builder's discount you wont spend much more than the big box.

Look hard at warranties. A manufacturer's warranty is different from the store or installer warranty. Understand who you will deal with if there is a problem. Appliance stores are more likely to have in house service. Think hard about whether to buy extended warranties. My gizmo usually breaks 3 days after the extended warranty expires.

GE makes good stuff. If there are specific features on the pricier brands that's up to you. Make them show you how well their product works.

We have Maytag Neptune washer dryers and they are supposed to save energy. Who knows if that's really true. What I do know is that you can cram a bunch of clothes in that front loader or bathmats and it cleans them and dries them. I, like most people tend to abuse machines. Hopefully there's enough food for thought here to help you make better decisions. Don't go nuts with this. Do your homework and make the brand a secondary item especially on the really high end brands.

[lily51]

I don't know about jenaire fridges, but we have had a jen wire counter top range/grill for over 20 years, no problems, still working great.
Good luck on tour project!

[Fig3825]

We're definitely going with gas range or range top, no question there. And we've got our heart set on a 48" with 6 burners and a griddle. We found that the grill gas ranges or range tops get really dirty and hard to clean. We are also after sealed burners which helps with cleaning also. All of the specs are so similar - which is what makes it hard. I'm finding trends in the reviews... The chefs are the ones that pick Blue Star, American and Capitol... The average Joe who has money to spend always picks Wolf. I'd guess this is the case because the chefs know more about what is proven to be a great range while the average consumer does just what I'm doing...looks around and asks around among other average consumers who only know Wolf and Viking as a higher end range and, therefore, say to buy one if you have the money to spend...

I know SubZero refrig's have a great name rep but I read they are not that great. I did some research on the Liebherr refrig's yesterday and they have the same 2yr warranty, plus a 5yr warranty and I think a 6-12yr warranty on the case. Also have separate compressors for the fridge and freezer, which is a must in my mind.

I guess the bottom line, thus far, is that none of you guys/gals are familier with American Range, Capitol or Blue Star?

[Dillbert]

one thing to keep in mind - the residential versions of the same name are not the same as the commercial versions. so a "pro" who luvs' his "Brand X" is a nice thing, but not related to home appliances.

I've have a gas 6 burner Viking "Professional" - don't go there, it's a maintenance headache. each burner grate has four little rubber feet - the retail price is $4 _per_ for little tiny rubber thing smaller than a pencil eraser. the auto spark works only when it feels like it....

I think all of the six burner models require an exhausting hood by "industry" if not local codes. I have a Miele hood - selected for it's "cute design" - and I'm satisfied with it. the most important hood aspect I'd say is ease of cleaning. regardless of how careful / diligent I am with spatter shields, etc., the stainless collects a fine mist of greases/oils. I wipe it down using alcohol (from a can - paint department) - there are obvious safety issues with this technique - as in _no_ flames during cleaning!

Blue Star has a general good rep from my forum readings.

sealed burners are nice. I wanted to get the Wolf, but at the time they did not offer sealed burners hence the Viking... bad move.

we recently got a new Samsung bottom freezer, double door model. picked for it's interior layout. which I'm very happy with but the ice maker is a disaster.

[Fig3825]

I looked at the Jenn Air Pro models for the refrigerator and wall ovens. The only "pro" difference I could find was a tubular handle that costs an additional $200 to $400....for the handle. I guess pro's have a different grip or something...and are willing to pay the additional money for that awesome grip.

I've read a lot of positive things about Blue Star as well, however, I also read that the Capitol range was developed to compete against and be better than the Blue Star. Similar to Nvidia and ATI when it comes to graphics cards for the computer. They both spend their existence trying to one-up the other....

From my short period of looking around, American Range seems to be on the newer side as a manufacturer and a lot of people like them that have them.

[Tilde]

Based on the scavenging I do for pallets and cardboard (condoned by the owner) behind a local high-end appliance house, Wolf, SubZero, and Viking are pretty popular with the consumers.

Second, I have a 'cheap' glass cooktop, not true induction but the cheapo kind that does get hot when you touch it, and I use my cast iron just fine. D'ruther a gas cook top, but not feasible down here, electric monopoly and ghastly zoning.

[Fig3825]

My mom has a glass cooktop and I dislike it very much... Would never have one.

I think the reason they tell you not to use cast iron is because it might slip out of your hand and shatter the surface!

[jal_ut]

How much do you cook? Do you do home canning? If you cook a lot and do home canning for sure go for a gas cook top. We had several electric ranges and they just don't hold up for the long cooking times needed in home canning. At the one place we didn't have natural gas available, so we got a gas range and had it converted to propane and used bottled gas so we could get some cooking done. At our current location we put in a Frigidaire gas range and it has worked perfectly for 8 years. It is a 30 inch free standing with an oven. White finish. Easy to clean.

In one house we had built in cooktop and oven. What a pain in the butt when they needed to be replaced. Kitchen remodel. I am in favor of standard sized free standing models.

Good advice to ask for your builders discount. Do you have a general contractor? If so, he may be able to steer you toward a good buy. I was a general contractor for many years. I could get some good discounts from my suppliers.

It is exciting to be getting a new house. Enjoy!

[Charlie MV]

I suggested a 36 cook top as a minimum. 48" with a griddle is even better. Beware that chefs may cook on a cook top but they rarely if ever clean them so a chef's pick isn't necessarily the best. No cook tops are what I would call easy to maintain.

Things must have changed in the world of refrigerators since I retired in 2005. Jenn Aire would have been the last choice at that time. But again, things change and when you chase down who owns which manufacturer it's kind of surprising.

Dacor hoods were state of the art at the time and very versatile as far as cladding them in wood, stucco or tile. When I retired it was popular to build a piece of art work onto the face of the hood. I thought that was colossally stupid. But Dacors were the only ones that would allow that option at the time.

Here's a small example of why shopping by name only can be bad. Dacor decided in about 1999 that they would build dishwashers. It took a few years for them to stop building lousy dishwashers. In about 2003, some genius at Dacor decided that a 30 inch DW would be way cool. I had several customers buy them with me strongly protesting each time. All dishwashers fit in a 24" opening. The Dacor 30" was a new product and very much untested. Long story short, we ended up modifying every single cabinet from the 30" opening down to a 24 inch opening because these new Edsils failed. Usually it was done with a 3" fluted or turned column on each side about a year later. It's difficult to impossible to match a finish that's over a year old. Finishes evolve in daylight.

This brings up the best reason to buy a proven model. In ten years when you change out a refer or oven how difficult will it be to match the opening?

I don't know any of the oven makers you name very well except Blue Star and Wolfe. If they come in fairly standard sizes and you like the features and reviews they are probably as good as any.

Again, some of the old tried and true manufacturers may meet your needs. The high end GE lines are a known quantity. They will look the same be it wall oven, gas cook top, warming drawer or microwave.

I just designed and built the kitchens. I had a builders account at several appliance stores. My customers placed their orders off of my specifications. My experience was that most of my customers bought appliances based on looks, whistles, bells and what ever the Jones or Rachael Ray swore by. Some were happy. Some weren't. The higher end buyers were rarely more satisfied than the GE buyers based on the feedback we got. I offered a life of my company warranty on mt cabinets because I built them well. I got more call backs to modify cabinets to new appliances than anything else.

If a customer's brat used the drawers as a step ladder to reach his Fruit Loops and put his foot through the bottom of the drawer I fixed it ...once. If the brat rode atop a swinging door squealing" wheee" I charged them to repair it.

It sounds like you are methodically researching. Use multiple sources. C-Net and Consumer Reports are user friendly. Don't be dazzled by what the chef's use.

I used to watch the New Yankee Work Shop. I can promise you that Norm Abrams had multiple tools already set up by apprentices and the only time he swept the floor was when the camera was rolling. Norm used hobby style tools which I thought were really appropriate for the show. Delta table saws were what most people had at the time. My table saw was a 22 foot sliding carriage saw with unlimited rip capability and a 12 foot cross cut capability. It weight 4 tons and required a 26 straight truck along with a fork lift to move. Chefs are the same way. Most of the time it would be impractical not to mention unsightly to put true commercial appliances in a residential kitchen.

Find a dealer you trust. That's the first and most important step. The dealer and your kitchen designer are in the best position to make recommendations because they hear the feed back. More may or may not actually be good.

[Fig3825]

I actually splurged on Consumer Reports and was instantly disappointed. They rank stuff on the most retarded comparisons.

But anyway, we are definitely in for 48" range or range top.

We are definitely looking for a 48" refrigerator.

The wall ovens, micro, warming drawer and dishwasher are more insignificant investments.

My wife found a Bertazzoni range today and loved it. I researched them and, according to those who own them, suck. They vent their hot air out the front at waist level and many people complained that the customer service was nil. 5 people said they had a miserable time getting service and one raved at how good it was. 20% is not good in my book.

I think the wolf range top is most likely the best bet since it combines reliability with a decent 2 yr warranty. I don't think we should get a gas oven due to uneven cooking trends moreso with gas than electric, which is why I think we should do the rangetop vs the full range and then just get electric wall ovens. But then we have to find space for a built in micro and warming drawer if she wants that as well. I'm liking the Dacor wall ovens as they seem to cook the most evenly from what I read. And I still like the Liebherr refrigerator, but they can get pricey when you start adding cooling zones. I have no idea why you would need more than 2, but they have up to 4 with separate doors for 4 different areas on a side by side style built in.

I was also told today that you hood should be slightly larger than your range. If we get a 48" range, I was told we probably want a 52 or 54" hood. The salesman told me that if you don't slightly oversize it, you'll be wiping grease off of your cabinets quite often and they will ruin more quickly than if it is matched to the range top size. Do you know if this is true?

I think the main attraction for the wall ovens is the fact that you don't have to bend over every time you want to look through the window.

I have read that Bosch makes a supremely quiet dishwasher, but I'm not terribly interested in quiet, I just want it to wash the friggin' dishes...

The problem is that my wife is shopping for appliances like she shops for a new dress. Which one looks the most, like, totally awesome and which one are people going to ooh and aah at. It's hard to reign that in sometimes... It is, after all, going to be our 'dream home', right?

[Fig3825]

Okay, we've made some progress...I THINK.

Wife is out shopping around for appliances today and found a Thermador Pro Grand PRG486EDPG as a floor model at a showroom in Maryland. The best price I can find online for this puppy is around $9200 bucks and that doesn't include shipping, which would be another couple hundred at least.

This floor model, in immaculate condition, was $5,500. I told her to buy it.

While Thermador was not on our list, and they are slightly overrated, I think this is a steal. While maybe not as good as the Wolf, I think it'll do...?

This is it on another website. I like that it has the star burners. Then we'll get an oven/micro wall oven combo so we will end up with the best of both worlds with regard to electric vs gas baking because we'll have both options.

Thermador Pro Grand PRG486EDPG

[Dillbert]

>>hood should be slightly larger than your range.
yes, excellent idea if you can arrange it.

electric is your best bet for an oven - you've cited the reason - gas is less consistent.
if you're a bread baker, look for one with a steam injection option; check the checking acct balance first - not inexpensive.

>>dishwasher
over the 50 years we've been householding, we've had many dishwashers.
we now have a Bosch - 3 yrs and counting. it's the best one ever - stainless interior, etc - quiet - yes. one downside: Bosch, in the interest of energy efficiency, does not offer a "hot air dry" -
it has not been a problem in our experience of load-after-dinner-unload-next-day. had it on other models, never used it anyway.

the upside: according to the sales people.... Bosch dishwashers (a German parent company) is the only brand actually made in USA.