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Kisal
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My Magic was a Newf/Golden Retriever cross. He was so sweet and gentle. Nobody wanted him, because he was going to get big and, possibly, drool. It was my day to do euthanasia, so I took him home, instead. In all his long life, which was almost 18 years, he only drooled about a dozen times.

Magic's dam was a Champion Golden Retriever, and his sire was a black Newf who lived nearby. An accidental mating, but a good one. Magic had a blue tongue, and I learned that was because the black color was introduced into the Newfoundland breed by cross-breeding with black Chows. I managed to find a home for Magic's sister, who by her looks, had a Samoyed as her sire. But although I tried hard to find him a home, nobody wanted Magic. He was meant for me, I guess. :lol:

He was so smart! On days when I planned to mow the lawn, I would open the back door and say, "Go get your toys," and he would run out and, one by one, pick up all the toys he had left in the yard and bring them in the house and drop them in his toy box. He even finally managed to grasp the concept of "other" ... the only dog I've ever had do so. I could say, "Go get the ball [or shoe, or stick, or whatever we were playing with]" and he'd go get it. Then I'd say, "Go get the other ball [or whatever the object was]" and he'd do it. It took about a year, maybe a bit longer, for him to really get the idea, but he finally did! :D

He would let little children who were just learning to walk -- kids he had never seen before -- hang onto his hair, and he would take one step, stop and wait for the child to take a step, then he'd take another step, stop and wait for the child, etc. He was an absolutely wonderful friend ... quite possibly the best friend I've ever had. :)

And anyway, in the overall scheme of things, what's a little drool between friends? :lol:
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams

cynthia_h
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Kisal wrote:How large of a dog do you want? I'm a big fan of Newfoundlands. :D

Do you know how to test a dog for temperament? [url=https://www.nrta.com/breedforfoundation/temptest.html]This site[/url] might help for future encounters. You'll need to take some of the equipment with you.

Rescue organizations, shelters, breeders ... it doesn't really matter where you go to find a dog. The fact is that nobody is going to tell you not to adopt or buy a dog from them. They don't want to keep the animal, or it wouldn't be up for adoption or sale in the first place. The people who are trying to place the animals, no matter what their motivation may be, are counting on the customer falling in love with the animal they adopt or buy. ...

There is no such thing as a "no kill" shelter. The ones who bill themselves as such are liars. They simply take the best of the animals that are brought to them, and send the others off to be killed at other shelters. Their hands may be clean, but their hearts aren't. JMO, and one I feel very strongly about, since at the Humane Society, I was one of the people who had to do the dirty work of killing the dogs that were brought to us by the oh-so-pure "no kill" shelters. :evil: :evil: :evil:
1) Newfies were on my original list of ten breeds but didn't make the cut to the three-breed list b/c of the slobber thing. I just couldn't deal with it. Even now, after 13 years of living with Berners (not a slobber breed) and going to Pt. Isabel--off-leash dog park--and seeing many slobber breeds, I can't imagine it in my house. I make quilts. I crochet. I have a couple of musical instruments. Wouldn't work; not for me.

2) Great temperament test! Good resource for regular people just trying to get some basic information on a puppy / adult dog. :)

3) Responsible rescues/humane societies have adoption staff/volunteers who do their best to make sure that the humans and the dog (cat) in the proposed match actually *do* match up temperamentally. I volunteered as a groomer at two humane societies (one was immediately post-Katrina, in Operation PetLift/Orphans of the Storm) and as a cat socializer AND groomer in the one closer to my home. An important function of volunteer training was temperament matching, for volunteers who wanted to do adoption counseling.

4) I regret disagreeing so openly and in public with a fellow moderator, but I must beg to differ with the statement that "There is no such thing as a 'no kill' shelter." The second humane society, which is much closer to my house than the first, and for which I have now volunteered approx. 5 years, IS a no-kill shelter. They keep cats/dogs for as long as it takes to find them a home. This organization is a non-profit humane society supported completely by voluntary donations; it is not Animal Control. It "springs" animals from many Animal Controls around northern California--or did, until a disastrous fire last May 20th destroyed most of the building and caused all of it to be declared unfit for use by the Fire Marshall. :cry: Still, they have persisted in saving cats and dogs via an expanded foster system where foster families are given everything they need: linens and laundry service, food, medications and medical care, and immediate phone availability for any questions that might arise.

The *only* animals this organization has put down are those whose medical condition was too dire to save: cancer was too advanced for surgery or chemotherapy to be of benefit; trauma from car accident was too devastating; etc. I know the building intimately and can say with confidence that there is no death room, no holding cell/pen, and no body dump. Those animals whose medical condition is devastating are humanely euthanized in the veterinary clinic, just like almost all of my own animals have been and (most likely) will be.

That said, I find it morally and ethically reprehensible and repulsive that others held themselves out so sanctimoniously to be "no kill" while having you and your peers/co-workers carry out their dirty work. If they had un-adoptable animals (I'm assuming this is the rationale, but don't actually know), then they needed to have the integrity to say so. But, as Mark Felton (aka Deep Throat/Watergate) so correctly said in the pages of our country's history, "Follow the money." I'll just BET that these sanctimonious and "pure of heart" (barf) individuals were raking in donations based on such statements...? And that many donations were conditioned on the belief that the shelter(s) was/were "no kill"? :evil:

Karma will bite those people in the rear, if She hasn't already. And the souls of the little ones you were forced to release suffer no longer.

Cynthia

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Kisal
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cynthia_h wrote:4) I regret disagreeing so openly and in public with a fellow moderator, but I must beg to differ with the statement that "There is no such thing as a 'no kill' shelter."
Oh, no problem, my friend! :D

The Humane Society where I volunteered was supported solely by donations, too. I'm curious what was done, at the shelter you speak of, with the dogs that had bitten one too many people? What was done with the dogs (where I worked, usually wolf/dog crosses) that had mauled someone, causing major injuries? What was done with the geriatric animals that required frequent medical care and could, at most, expect to have only 1 or 2 more years of quality life, but required constant vet care? What was done with the feral cats the "owner" had been feeding and wanted someone to "adopt", since they were moving to a different city/state/home/whatever? These were the kinds of animals we were brought.

In some cases, the no-kill places just referred the owners to us, because they knew darned good and well they couldn't place such animals. Just as they knew we wouldn't be able to place them. We had pretty good success placing dogs up to about 8 or 9 years of age, but not many folks are willing to take on a dog they know they will soon have to put down, and before they get to that heart-wrenching point, they'll be paying thousands of dollars in vet bills. But those dogs exist, and they get taken to no-kill shelters, just like they get taken to shelters like the one where I worked. The no-kill shelters either turn them away, or else they accept them -- along with whatever donation comes with them -- and then they take the dogs elsewhere to be destroyed. And what do they do when they are faced with a total of 650 just-weaned kittens, all of which arrived within a 2-hour period one Saturday morning where I worked? There's a limit to how many animals can he housed in a finite number of square feet.

I feel it's dishonest for them to turn away people with unadoptable animals, claiming that they "don't have room right now", when the real reason is that they recognize the animal is not adoptable. And to accept such animals, because the owners offer large donations, thinking their beloved pet will receive tender loving care for the rest of its days, but then, turn around and haul the poor creature to another shelter to be put down ... that's nothing short of despicable, in my eyes. :evil:

I've been watching the "Dog Town" series on Netflix lately. Now that's a true no-kill shelter. But they clearly have funding the likes of which we could only dream about. And they also have plenty of space to expand, building new structures for housing and care as needed. We were limited to our 4 buildings and about 10 or 20 acres. We took in all kinds of animals, including horses and cattle, reptiles, domestic birds of all species, pet rats ... you name it and we had 'em. :lol:

The shelter where I worked has become no-kill in recent years. They no longer accept animals that clearly are not adoptable. They refer the owners to the county pound, which is now on the verge of shutting down, because they can't handle the volume. The Humane Society does take difficult-to-place animals, however, like my sweet little Angus. Angus had been passed along through 2 prior shelters, who hadn't been able to place him.

The losers in this "pass the buck" game, though, are the animals. All of us at the Humane Society where I volunteered, volunteers and employees alike, were required to be trained and licensed to do euthanasia, and to participate in that part of the job. We rotated through that position, and took that responsibility very seriously, treating even the nastiest-tempered animals gently and with respect. Being one of the people who kills the unwanted animals doesn't exactly get you many thank-yous, but turning away old and/or sick animals, just to be able to give yourself a public pat on the back, isn't my idea of helping all the animals that need help.

The real answer isn't no-kill shelters, it's shutting down the puppy mills ... ALL puppy mills.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams

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Kisal
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I'm done with my rant. I think remembering almost having to kill Magic ... when he was 10 weeks old, weighed 50 lbs, and had feet the size of dinner plates ... just overwhelmed me with a whole bunch of really bad memories. :cry:
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams

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Kisal wrote:How large of a dog do you want? I'm a big fan of Newfoundlands. :D

There is no such thing as a "no kill" shelter. The ones who bill themselves as such are liars. They simply take the best of the animals that are brought to them, and send the others off to be killed at other shelters. Their hands may be clean, but their hearts aren't. JMO, and one I feel very strongly about, since at the Humane Society, I was one of the people who had to do the dirty work of killing the dogs that were brought to us by the oh-so-pure "no kill" shelters. :evil: :evil: :evil:
That answers some questions for me. I never could figure out how a shelter (AKA pound) could be "no kill." I worked at the Cheyenne Animal Shelter many years ago, and the dogs came in a whole lot faster than they went out. There were 48 runs there, and they put as many as three dogs per run. Every Sunday, the employees would walk the runs and select the ones for the kill. Old dogs and black Lab types were the first to go; after that, the ones with chancy dispositions.

We were as honest as possible with each dog. It was heartbreaking to adopt out a pet, only to have it return a week later. Owners had to fill out a questionnaire about habits, medical history, age, breed, temperament, relationships with children, and reason for bringing. This was made available to prospective owners. You couldn't tell with the strays, but you could almost guarantee running away would be included as a negative about the dog.

(That's where I developed my antipathy for German Shepherds and Siberian Huskies. They have active minds, love to run, and are escape artists. Wonderful companions if you can keep them interested at home, but I saw too many that got bored and decided to travel. Covered runs were reserved for these breeds. They could easily squirm their way over the top, and we'd arrive at work in the morning to a kennel in an uproar.)

Newfoundlands might be the new trend. When I last checked out the local shelter (AKA pound), two of the Pit Bull mixes were Newfoundland crosses.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

cynthia_h
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Kisal wrote:
cynthia_h wrote:4) I regret disagreeing so openly and in public with a fellow moderator, but I must beg to differ with the statement that "There is no such thing as a 'no kill' shelter."
Oh, no problem, my friend! :D

...

The Humane Society where I volunteered was supported solely by donations, too. I'm curious what was done, at the shelter you speak of, with the dogs that had bitten one too many people? What was done with the dogs (where I worked, usually wolf/dog crosses) that had mauled someone, causing major injuries? What was done with the geriatric animals that required frequent medical care and could, at most, expect to have only 1 or 2 more years of quality life, but required constant vet care? What was done with the feral cats the "owner" had been feeding and wanted someone to "adopt", since they were moving to a different city/state/home/whatever? These were the kinds of animals we were brought.

...
1) Bite cases: The humane society, so far as I know, is not ALLOWED to accept bite cases. The local ordinance *requires* that Animal Control retain custody and control of these dogs. :( If AC needs kennel space, they "borrow" space at the HS, but only the lead dog trainer and one assistant are allowed near the dog(s), and that's to feed them and evaluate them. The "bite" dogs are not removed from the kennels, I was told, except by AC staff. (Cleaning those kennels must require precision timing....)

2) Mauling dogs: see 1) above. HS has no legal authority to confiscate dangerous dogs; this may be a distinction between the situation here and the one you had to deal with?

3) Geriatric dogs who need constant vet care: *This* one I definitely know about, having bathed/cleaned such dogs when they were well enough. The HS keeps them either until there actually *is* an informed adopter or--if the animal is still continent--has them "live" at the adoption desk behind the swinging access door (waist-high on a person) on pads and bedding, much like I had Vergil for many months. The animal lives at the HS and is cared for by vet staff. If the animal is INcontinent, s/he stays on the vet side in an ex-pen, in a room accessible to staff who are walking by so that some social interaction is still available to the dog. If the dog must be intubated simply to survive, and has no QOL, then the staff decides--as would most caring owners--that the dog must be let go. But, short of a zero QOL, animals stay at the HS, alive, under treatment.

4) Feral cats: I don't know how long ago you were in this enforced, repulsive situation. The HS has led an active TNR (trap, neuter, return) program for over 10 years which has reduced the feral cat population in the East Bay by over 50%. There has been a LOT of community education about the importance of leaving feral colonies in place after TNR; otherwise, more just fill the vacuum. Many fewer kittens are coming in during the two kitten annual seasons, and this reduction is attributed to both the long-term TNR *and* the low-cost/free spay/neuter program in which many vets, ACs, and HSs have been active for about 8 years.

I've met two or three dogs named "Magic," and they all have been as good as their names. :)

Cynthia

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Kisal
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The HS facility where I volunteered was known throughout Oregon for the excellent work they did. Many of the small towns around this city contracted to bring their stray animals to us, rather than dealing with county animal control. Thus, we got the maulers, biters, feral cats, and everything else, from those towns.

Somehow, I got stuck in the position of tranquilizing the dangerous dogs. Quite possibly, that was because I was also doing wildlife rehab at the time, and everyone knew I worked with predators. The regular kennel staff provided the majority of the daily care for those dogs, because I wasn't there every day. But when it came time to euthanize such dogs, I was the one who had to walk into the kennel and give them the tranquilizer shot. I guess, since I could walk into a cage with an adult cougar, they all figured a dog would be no problem for me, and actually, it wasn't. (I've only been bitten by one dog, and that was a neighbor's chihuahua, that came rampaging across the street one morning and nailed me as I was getting into my car. Hence, my abiding dislike of chihuahuas. :lol: )

We have had a TSN program here for many years, but a lot of people would bring in feral cats in traps, pillowcases, cardboard boxes, and other assorted containers. :roll: As long as the animal had no tag and the person claimed the cat as their own, our policy was to accept it, especially if they listed residence in one of the towns with which we were contracted. Some of these people had fed and befriended the cats they brought to us, and actually expected us to place the cats in homes as pets. They couldn't understand why "such a nice kitty" wouldn't make a great pet for just anyone. I got bit 18 times by one cat, who lunged at my face as we very gingerly began to open the box in which it had been transported. (Sure thing! That critter would make a lovely pet! :lol: )

Our HS facility was also the official, legal SPCA authority in the county. We had investigators on staff who were responsible for following up on animal abuse and neglect complaints, and confiscating animals when necessary. I think the agency has since given up that function.

I was watching a basketball game on TV, and Magic was attentively watching it with me. I was trying out names on him, and one of the players was Magic Johnson. Every time the announcer said that name, Magic pricked his ears forward, so I asked him if he'd like to be called Magic. He looked at me and grinned, so that became his name. :lol:
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Kisal, I love your story about Magic. Sounds like a lovely dog. I watch that show DOGTOWN just about every time it comes on, it is really good. Also watched one of cesar Millan's shows, where he went with this woman that did wolf/dog cross rescues. She said they are incredibly hard to place, train and deal with. Most do get put down that come into shelters etc. They spoke to one man, that also had a wolf/dog cross rescue, he said they got so many calls daily, from people trying to get rid of them, there was no way he could have ever taken them all in. It really is a shame that people are allowed to cross breed them with wolves. Wolves certainly aren't pet material at all. But then have you ever watched that show FATAL ATTRACTION??? That is a real eye opener. Amazing what people think are pets, and think that these animals/reptiles actually love them??? cynthia, and stella, you both make excellent points. I too wish they could shut down EVERY puppy mill, plus stop every Petshop from selling puppies and kittens. Maybe???? then there would not be so many un-wanted pets out there. It is so sad, because there must be millions of them out there. In those millions, really are some incredible pet material, that often just don't get a chance. But we will keep looking for just the right dog for us. It will take time, but when it is meant to be, I'm sure we will find it. We would try rescues again, BUT you all have certainly opened our eyes, as to how to get the right rescue, and right dog. Which we much appreciatte. Thank you, all of you. :)

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:) Well, we decided that IF the right dog came along, we would try again. There was an ad posted on kijiji for a free dog, turned out he is a LEONBERGER, purebred. We contacted the person and ended up going to get him 3 days ago. He was really un-brushed, and so I spent a lot of the following day brushing him. He looks so much better!----Now to get him to eat!!!!------I have been trying handfeeding, and the first night he ate 2 dishes of a better dogfood, but now doesn't want to eat again? He is very thin.....He came from a situation where the couple broke up, due to his drinking, he had lost his home, vehicle, wife and daughter left him, and obviously the poor dog is very stressed. But what a nice dog! He does need to be neutered though........I am going to get him a different kind of dogfood, to mix in with what we bought and hope he will eat that. He should really look nice once he gains some weight. It's going to take time for him to realize there is no more tension in the house, but he has the greatest temperment, that I know he will come around. He's great with our other dogs, and the cat. How long he has been under this stress I don't know, but this breed seems to be like the newfs, etc. that have incredible temperments, and you can tell it's there. He is a little more outgoing today, so I can't wait to see how this all works out, as he has a home now, where he can stay!!!! With no drunken fights and yelling going on. He has really taken to my husband, and lays on the floor in front of his recliner, when he gets home and sits down to watch the news, etc....So we are very excited about our new boy!!! Anybody else out there with a LEONBERGER??????? Would love to hear your experiences???

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Oh. My. God. You have a Leonberger?! :shock: The *only* people I know of who have left Berners for another breed have left for...Leos.

And you got one dropped on you from the sky. Tread carefully with this boy; he is temperamentally fragile right now. If a Leo won't eat, it's like a Berner not eating--something is dreadfully wrong. I'd give it a week or two in case it's just the left-over stress. How old is he? If he's under two years old, offer him food in small snack-sized portions as often as four times a day so he doesn't get too hungry in between times. If he gets too hungry, ironically enough, the stress of hunger might shut him down. (My first Berner, a rescue who had been starved, was like this.)

In the chaos of his former home, I wouldn't be surprised if "feeding the dog" was overlooked more than once. :( So hunger would trigger more than just hunger pangs, poor baby. Try the small snack-sized meals before running through all the foods in town. Otherwise, you're training him to...snub anything that doesn't appeal to him immediately because "mom" will try something even better! You can see where this leads... :wink: Many cats are famous for using this technique on their people. Berners (and Leos) are just as smart as cats! They're terrific "people trainers"! :D

I'm glad he likes being brushed. *whew* Rescue #2, the 9.5-y.o. female, had evidently been HIT with combs and brushes, b/c every time I got one out, she cowered. :( I had to lay them on the floor and just let them lie there, then pick one up, let her smell it, and touch it to her head without using it. Then gently draw it over the surface of her head. Then start picking up a few hairs, etc. It took several months before she permitted me to brush her everywhere, but she was OK with bathing. ??? So I rinsed her after the bath with lots of conditioner and then used a forced-air blower to separate the strands of the coat as best I could, followed by separating them with my fingers.

I suggest *not* neutering him until he's eating regularly and bonded to you. It might take just a couple of weeks. The risk of neutering while he's still adjusting and suffering stress is that he might shut down, esp. if he's an adult. Puppies (<12 months) are more resilient; adolescent dogs could go either way. But adults, esp. in Berners, can shut down for months if overloaded with stress. It took Myles almost a year to recover from the stresses of his starvation and other abuse, even with him being an only dog that first year or two.

Train him starting NOW, though. The usual "home obedience" will come as a welcome confidence-builder for this dog: Sit, Stay, Down, Off (if needed), Heel, Wait, Come, and all the rest. Leos are a Working Dog breed; they want to show you what they can do.

If he's not already, he soon will be a treasure.

Cynthia

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DoubleDogFarm wrote:Jon,

He looks like a Pit Bull in sheep's clothing :lol:

Cute

Eric
Had a few beers so...

What does your post insinuate? All of the pit bulls I have had (known) are more friendly than most dogs I encounter. Please for me do not continue the media induced hatred of my breed. I would have to say given the chance that the dog in the pic would be WAY more aggressive than my dog.

Thanks!

Next time say Doberman or Rott or German Sheppard they were the ones before the APBT. Check it out it goes in cycles.

Dono :wink: 8)

What will be the next most hated dog. Did you know the labs bite more people than APBT? Check the American Tempermant Society.

Sorry but any kind of bashing on Pits really strikes a never with me.

Love you DDF. :lol:

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Sorry Dono, I understand completely. You are right, I have had more go arounds with little dogs than large.

I find it interesting that Black Labs or Lab mixes are first to be put down. :( Labs and Lab Ret. are probably the number one breed on the islands.

Eric

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gixxerific
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By the way I didn't think about it at the time, you have labs. I didn't mean anything by it.

I'm not so sure about labs being the number one on the PTS list. With the number of APBT's at shelters since every jerkwad out ther is raising them and nor for the right reason I might add. Than people get them not realizing how much energy they have and get rid of them.

But than again Labs were just ranked the most owned dog in the world. Which some may think a good thing but when you realize the same unethical breeding practices they have for the pit than things look bleak for the breed. Both of them are suffering with people just breeding for money and not caring about the health and future of the breed.

I could go on.

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gixxerific
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Stella I have a new found respect for you. You said your next rescue would be a pit bull or heeler. Pits make great dogs and there are WAY too many in rescues, they deserve a good life and very smart loving dogs.

About NO-Kill (to no one in particular) that is not always a good thing. I have seen good dogs gone bad in such shelters. Caged for sometimes years. The undesirables that is, again with the pit bulls. Some of these dogs as I said go from great dogs to dogs that develop severe unreversable problems that must be put down because they can't exist in everyday life anymore.

Sounds good but is it. The rescues and HS's are jammed packed full of dogs which means less care per dog on and on. I have seen some very heated debates on this topic and they have opened my eyes.

I hope I'm not bringing everybody down but the title say's "if you like dogs" and I LOVE dogs as much or more than gardening. Just being realistic here.

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:D cynthia_h...........Yes we are thrilled to pieces with him!!!! :-() not because he was free, but because he seems like he is going to be an awesome boy!!! BUT FREE sure did help!!! (He is also Reg. with the papers signed to us.)We were one of over a thousand enquieries on him!!! Fortunately for us, most just wanted a cool dog!!! He loves my husband, :) Since I had major surgery, I can only take him out for a pee, but Chuck takes him out in the yard for a run at night to poop etc.... Yes, I am worried about him not eating, he was 3 in March of this year. He loves to be brushed, you can roll him over and he lets you do the other side, or he just stands there to have his belly done. Such a good boy. His name is Grizzy. We have tried not to change anything as much as possible, got his food dishes and food that was left, but I noticed his dish was full when we went to get him. So he wasn't eating real well there either. I think I am going to make a vet appt. as it looks like he has an ear infection too. His ears are redish inside and he tends to hold his head to one side. No, we thought about the neutering and decided we will wait until he's eating well. Because I have never seen a dog NOT eat??? He is very thin, you can feel all his ribs, poor baby. YES I have been getting sucked into trying different things :oops: but I just want him to eat. They do give out sample bags of dogfood ( good stuff) at this one petshop, so will go there tomorrow and get a few samples. See if one perks his interest? I'm just not used to things NOT eating, everything else 4 legged around here is always ready to eat something!!! :wink: I think he must have gone through a LOT of trauma though. I really don't think they ever beat him, they just stressed him out so bad, that he's in bad shape. No animal can stand that sort of stress without reacting. We almost adopted a Berner from Rescue awhile back, but after reading up on how susceptable to cancer they are, we decided we wanted the dog in our lives longer than that. They all die too young!!! But to be honest, I think the Leonberger's are the way to go!!! He is an awesome boy. Didn't really know too much about them, until he came up. After getting permission ( and before) I researched the heck out of the breed, and decided we made the right decision. Now to get him to Eat. A friend of ours that raises Newfs, gives her sick newfs yogurt with their food, they love it, blueberry flavoured especially!!!! :roll: So might try that as well. I can see this is going to be a test!!! But we have to win, for his sake. Poor guy. I really appreciatte your info cynthia_h, really helps. I guess he did kind of get dropped out the sky for us, we feel very priveleged to have him, but maybe the higher power knew we would care for him, and be his savours. O:) We sure are going to try!!! I don't intend to fail either, unless the poor guy has cancer or something. But I don't think so, his coat still has a fair shine to it after brushing. Sounds like you had quite a time with your rescue with the brushing. That's so sad, I wish they could talk and tell us what they want. Will keep everybody posted on his progress........................ Guess who, just ate a cheese sandwhich :oops: Yes I am getting sucked in................He is very obiedient, he sits, walks on his leash really well. Is housebroken, a Great guy.

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OK. Let's pretend Grizzy is a Berner, just bigger, for a minute. Leos *are* Working Dogs, so pretty close, and some consider them to also be Mountain Dogs, so very close. :D

Here are the foods I've fed my lot over the time I've had dogs (BTW, I've only ever *had* Berners; Myles was my first dog, my first Berner...).

Meat: Beef, chicken, duck, turkey, lamb (commercial foods based on these as well as the occasional real food). I have not fed rabbit or venison, because I want to have two fairly accessible meats available in case a dog of mine ever develops weird food allergies.

Dairy: You name it, I've fed it to them. Milk (they sometimes get to clean up after people's cereal bowls), cheese, yogurt, cottage cheese, eggs. Cream cheese (very good for sneaking pills into). Oh: no ice cream or sherbet; sorry, doggies.

Veggies: Carrots, peas, asparagus (lucky dogs...), broccoli (they LOVE it), tomatoes, chard, spinach, kale, pumpkin, squash (both winter and summer types). Cooked, and a couple of these raw. Vergil loved just-picked tomatoes.

Grains/Starch: Corn, potatoes, pasta, rice, bread (not whole wheat, just regular unbleached-flour bread) either plain or as buttered toast. I cook a grain mix for them which contains rice, barley, rolled oats, and quinoa.

Fruit: all of my Berners: Apples, pears, bananas. Individuals, or a couple of my dogs: Mangoes, mandarins/clementines, peaches, and probably some I'm forgetting. :)

What I love about the omnivore in my dogs is that, even if I run out of "dog food," I can still make a meal they'll love and that will be good for them from the regular "people food" in the house.

With ear inflammation like you describe, it's possible that Grizzy's sinuses are inflamed to the extent that his sense of smell is compromised. This happened to my 11-y.o. female recently, when our 5-y.o. girl came down with a bad case of kennel cough. :( The 11-y.o. was affected, but not completely; her sinuses were blocked up. She couldn't smell her food, so she didn't eat for several days. She just picked at the food until I figured out about the sinuses (of course, on a Friday night) and made her a very personal dinner with strong cheese stirred into it. That worked! Which may be why Grizzy ate the cheese sandwich: he could smell it. :)

Sometimes warming the food up slightly will help, too, in the "aroma department."

Cynthia

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cynthia------Thank you for all the food suggestions. Our other dogs eat veggies and fruit, but haven't tried with Grizzy. He loved that cheese sandwhich though! It's very possible he has a sinus infection, we will find out soon. I'll call the vet tomorrow. You know, even now, as far as we are concerned, he is well and truly a TREASURE, like you said he would be. This breed doesn't seem to be around too much here, but I sure do like them. No drooling "whew" Although the first day he was panting so much I had to get paper towel and keep wiping his face. He didn't mind though........I think he enjoys having company during the day, and being in the house. Once things have settled down, he will get lots of play time outside, but not now.........he would think he was deserted. A definate work in progress. :wink:

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Oooooo! What an absolutely gorgeous doggie, Mantis! I'll bet he's just gonna be a lovely addition to your family. Lucky you, to find such a beautiful animal to share your home. :D
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:D Kisal.......Thank you, I think we were all lucky we found each other. He is calming down a lot, considering how upset he was the first day he was here. Plus today he has decided to nibble on things, "FOOD". He is eating a bit more today, after watching the other dogs eating. I guess a little competition is helping? He's certainly not eating like he should be, but at least he is eating some things now. Although tonight he thought he would like our supper, when he didn't get any, he went and ate out of his own food dish...............I am SO happy to see that. He really is a great dog, just a lot of re-hab ahead of him. Which isn't going to happen overnight :(

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Well we made a Great discovery tonight, grizzy loves cheese, so I took a slice of cheese, broke it up into awhole bunch of little pieces, and mixed it in his bowl of food, that was almost 3/4's full of dry dogfood.............He scarfed the WHOLE works down!!!! :D .............But later our cat, was rubbing up againgst his face and side, luckily we were watching, as he all of a sudden out of nowhere, decided to go after her, his food dish had been picked up and put away? :shock: We yelled at him and he went and layed down, luckily he quit right away, and didn't hurt her. It really shocked us, as she had done that a few times since he's been here, he did nothing before. Luckily we were there. He wasn't upset that we yelled his name, he knew he had done wrong. Later he came over and offered me his paw! :roll: I took it as what do you do? To do that was a big thing for him. I don't think he will chase the cat anymore, but she probably will learn to stay away, until she knows him better now too.......The Saga continues!!! :wink:

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That's so great! I remember when I got my first Kom, I walked out into the dog run one day and found her with my cat Albert's head in her mouth! :shock: Needless to say, she got a firm "Stop that right now!" yelled at her. :lol:

That was sweet that he offered you his paw. I think it means "I'm sorry. I didn't understand. Please forgive me." And when you took his paw, he knew he had been forgiven.

When I got home from the hospital today, my dogs both just danced around me with joy. Climbed into my lap ... one at a time, of course ... and thoroughly licked my face. It was such a warm welcome home. I just love that kinda stuff from companion animals. Cats are usually a bit more subtle, but they have their ways of letting you know that your presence makes them happy. :D
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams

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Oh my, at least he didn't have her head in his mouth! Lol!!!! Bet that was a shock to you. Just wanted to ask what kind of dogs do you have now? I'm sure you have probably told us all, but??? Well he ate 1/2 a dish of dogfood this morning, he was only used to getting one feed a day, at night. So I guess breakfast is different for him. But he ate :) I think he did feel bad, after the cat incident, as she went by him later and he never bothered her, so hopefully all keeps going well............Will keep you posted. :) It really is nice to have companion animals at home, they make your house a "HOME". I always feel very bad for people, when they have to give up their pets, :( they mean so much to us all. I bet your's were happy to see you :D You were probably very happy to see them too. Hospitals aren't fun. :(

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Large, deep-chested dogs should be fed smaller rations, twice a day, rather than one big meal. Then, it's important to keep them somewhat quite for an hour after they eat. A nice, quite walk, instead of a romp in the park, for instance.

A dog's stomach hangs kind of like a hammock, and when full, can flip over, causing torsion bloat. If that happens, it's an emergency, because it can be fatal within a matter of an hour or two. Symptoms are that you can actually see the dog swelling up, it will be standing hunch-backed with it's head down, drooling and trying to retch, but unable to. The entry to and exit from the stomach have been twisted, so the food cannot be vomited up easily, nor can it pass into the intestine.

I had it happen to an Old English Sheepdog I fostered for awhile. You could actually stand and watch him slowly swelling, like a balloon being inflated. I rushed him to the only vet that was open at that hour of the morning. The vet removed a large-bore needle from a syringe and inserted it between a couple of the dog's ribs, into it's stomach. Then he put a little morphine powder inside each of the dog's lower eyelids, to make him vomit. That was the first aid. Surgery to reposition the stomach was performed after the dog had recuperated somewhat from the emergency. I was terrified throughout the entire experience. The vet told me about how important it was to feed large, broad-chested dogs twice a day, and then not to let them romp and run around for about 45 minutes to an hour afterward.

Look at your dog's chest. If it's broad across the front, and viewed from the side, the rib cage curves down deeply and then steeply up toward the narrow waist and the belly, this is how you should feed your dog. Believe me, you do NOT want to have to go through the horror I did that morning. :shock:

My current 4-legged pals are Angus, who is a black Lab mix. I don't know what he's mixed with, but the formation of his head makes it look like he might have some hound in him. He weighs 80 lbs and loves to schmooz with people. He firmly believes he IS a people. Even sleeps on his back on my bed, all 4 feet in the air and his head resting on the pillow. My "little" buddy is Daisy, who is half Dalmatian and half blue heeler. She weighs 50 lbs but she is convinced she's the size of a chihuahua and should be allowed to sit in my lap 24/7. :lol:
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams

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:wink: Bet your guys were so Happy to have you home!!! :) Since we have had Whippets, and now have another old girl, we are aware of Bloat with them and a lot of other breeds of dogs like that, greyhounds etc. We definately always watch for that. Don't need what happened to you happening here!--------That would NOT be good. Thank you for reminding us of it though. Lots of people are not aware that can happen. Thank goodness through the Whippets, we are. :) Our Pom sleeps like your Angus, upside down on the bed, it looks so funny! She loves sleeping that way. Silly girl.............They sure do give us something to talk about and to, for sure! Lol!!!

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:) Just wanted to do an update on our Leonberger dog, "Grizzy"

He has definately decided after trying many different dry dogfoods, that he "loves" Lamb and Rice. He is now eating about half a medium sized dish in the morning, and one after we have had our supper. By that point he's so tempted, he eats!!!

He still isn't too sure about the cat, had growled at her once, but no more attacking or wondering where she is now.

He has also decided that he not only likes being a house dog ( never a accident yet!) "But" That he Loves to swim! Yikes!!! :roll:

We let him out in the yard for quite awhile during the day, if it's not pouring rain. He plays with our daughter's two bassets that we are also looking after. :roll: Plus our dogs like going out with him, but they don't play with him really. I "had" an idea I was going to put a gold fish or koi fish in the horses water tub, ( since our last old mini had to be put down in may) Well the first day I let him out there, I was having a look at the potential "Fish" pond, thinking that was a great place for one or two fish, Until, I went to get Grizzy after he had been out for awhile.

My hopes or a Fish pond were gone!! :( "Guess" "Who" went swimming!!! in my wanna be fish pond!!! :shock: What a mess!!!! After much drying off, he came back in the house. He's at least coming into different parts of the house now, before he just wanted to stay in the living room. Now he lays out by the office desk, while I am on the computer, or in the front of a little room ( once used for office supplies) opposite the office desk. He also is now starting to come in our bedroom. Plus he goes in and through the shop, to go out in the back yard. It doesn't scare him anymore.

He is also Actually starting to gain some weight!!! :clap: Plus now he has become a big mooch for treats too! :oops: When the other dogs share a piece of cheese, here sits the 'Moose" LOl!! Right beside the rest of the small dogs!!! What a Motley Crew!!! A Pom, A Whippet, an Oversized Chihuahua, and a Leonberger!

We weren't sure about leaving him in the yard, when we had to go out a few times, and couldn't take any of the dogs, but he never tried to climb or jump the fence, and was still there, looking very happy when we got back. Also Very Wet, from going swimming, Again!!!! He sure loves water!!!

He still gets very nervous when he hears loud noises, or if something startles him unexpectedly. But we understand where that came from, so will need lots of work on that. Sadly, some of these things may never go away? But he is sure making progress in leaps and bounds!!! Lots of brushing and vacuuming going on, still :roll: But he's a big hairy dog, that just wasn't brushed for a long time, so hopefully he will finish blowing his coat quite so badly soon. We sure do like him though! He is SLOWLY turning into an awesome boy!

We will get him neutered, when he has gained all his weight back, I just don't think he's up to that yet for awhile, plus all our girls are spayed, and our daughter's bassett's too, so he doesn't even think about that.

All in all, he is turning into a great member of the family!!! Just to get him past, the things that scared him in his other home. But it is coming thankfully!!. We sure do like Leonbergers! Great dogs. :)

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Ah, yes. The swimming... Both of my boys liked the water. Myles liked to wade, Vergil LOVED to swim. He would go into the San Francisco Bay up to his neck and swim and swim and swim, just as happy as could be.

But my girls...heaven forbid that they should get their little toe-sies wet! Even during some heat waves we've had here, when I've taken my dogs to Point Isabel (on S.F. Bay shoreline), Vesta deigned to get her front feet wet only to the pasterns. Her back feet stayed dry dry dry. :?: silly girl.

You may want to become familiar with a grooming instrument called the [url=https://www.petedge.com/product/Mars-Coat-King-Strippers/44334.uts]Mars Coat King[/url], or "Mars comb." It is a wonder at taking out undercoat, while leaving the beautiful outer coat/guard hairs intact. I worked Vesta's coat over a couple of weeks ago, and since then the temp has spiked a couple of times, but she's not suffering from the heat. :)

The Mars comb (BTW, I recommend a size 6, Extra Coarse; anything else will pull and snag too much for "our" kinds of doggies' coats) should be thought of as "curved razors on a stick." It's quite safe to both dog and person when used correctly. If you decide to order it--and, believe me, it will do the job faster than any brush or rake--let me know when it arrives, and I can give you detailed help away from this thread.

Grizzy sounds like an absolutely 100% wonderful Leo, just a little gun-shy (= noise) from his previous life of stress. Is Dominion Day celebrated with fireworks? If so, keep him indoors. Panic attacks in large dogs aren't fun. :(

I'm so glad he got a home like yours. :D

Cynthia

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:D cynthia_h............Thanks for the link to that brush. We have a big one somewhat similiar to it, that we used to get all the tangles and mats out with.

Also have a furminiator that does the undercoat. He just has a lot of hair! But that does look very interesting. I'm going to look up the name of mine that has very sharp edges, to cut through the mats, etc.

Forgot to add one more thing we are working with, his drinking, Yikes!!! :shock: The floor gets pretty wet! He takes a big drink, then as he's finishing, opens his mouth and lets a lot drop on the floor! :roll: Thank Goodness for paper towel.

That's comical, that your girls won't go past their fetlocks in the water!!! Can't get "wet" you know!!! Grizzy in the other hand couldn't care less how wet he gets! Mucky boy!

The joys of big dogs, gotta love 'em though!!! :wink: He will be "In" the house if firecrackers are going off for sure!!! He doesn't need that, nor do we.

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All my dogs have been sloppy drinkers. I fold an old bath towel in half, place in on the floor, and set the water bowl in the middle. Sometimes, I use 2 bath towels, so there are 4 layers of cloth to absorb "spillage". :lol:
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:?: Kisal, Thank you, that's a very good idea!!! :) Except he doesn't have a water "DISH", He has a "BUCKET", Loves his water!

Whether he's in it, or Drinking it! Sloppy boy! :roll: We will definately try that towel idea!! Thanks again. :)

Quick small update, he's now sleeping in our bedroom, on the floor, beside my husband's side of the bed!! :)

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:cry: Well this is not how we expected this to be. :cry: Grizzy was getting to be very happy here, but no matter how much we got him to eat, some days more than others, but even after a real good worming, he was getting thinner and thinner. We honestly thought he was going to die of starvation.--------We finally contacted Leonberger rescue, we just could not afford huge vet bills, that we felt he needed :?: But in the meantime a lady that has a leonberger, that is friends with the Rescue people, contacted me. She is prepared to put Insurance on him, and get him to the vet this coming wednesday. So we gave it a lot of thought, and met her yesterday, and turned him over to her. Her and her husband's kids are not home now, so they have lots of time for him. I Desperately hope we did the right thing. I think :?: we did, she will call me often, and let me know wednesday night what her vet had to say................We feel so bad. :cry:

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Oh, I'm sooooo very sorry that Griz isn't able to stay with you. :( Such a sweetie, like Leos are. *wistful sigh* But there must be something systemic that he just isn't putting on the weight, even after settling into your home and getting over the stress of his previous situation. Anything could be going on, "anything" from a straightforward (well, it's not, really; I've had a cat with this diagnosis) hyperthyroid to...well...cachexia secondary to undiscovered, systemic cancer. :(

You feel, and rightly so, devastated. You put a lot of time and effort into this boy, and he was happy with you. But my rescue dogs, as much as I love them, have all cost me $$$ so far beyond their adoption fees that--no joke--I doubt I'll ever be able to retire. Perhaps not the best financial move, but we don't have children whose educations were being put at risk, and my chronic pain makes travel *very* difficult.

Although there have been treatments we have declined, there have been times when we've pushed the envelope in hopes of learning something of benefit to future Bernese Mtn. Dogs or related breeds. We know it's a privilege, but there were some times during Vergil's treatment when I was ready to transfer ownership to the medical team directing his treatment program because I was in almost over my head technically as well as emotionally. We'll be digging out from his treatment for another two years, I think.

So I understand why you needed to transfer his ownership to someone who could guarantee (and she did, didn't she?) that she would provide every medical treatment Griz needs. If that isn't the case, then I don't know what to say to you. But in rescue--and this is the hardest part of it, for true--the dog's best interest must come first.

"RescueGrrl" (RG) came to live with us on Christmas Eve 2010. I saw her as a companion for Vesta, who had stopped eating because she had lost Vergil's companionship on walks, rides in the car, and other simple daily activities, even though he was here in the house and alert. Vesta & Vergil had been a pair ever since he came to live with us in September 2004, after Myles died (August 28, 2004). So Vesta very much needed a friend and companion.

She and RG walked pleasantly together, slept next to each other, ate in the kitchen at the same time (although at the same 8-foot distance Vesta and Vergil had), etc., for four months. Two months before Vergil's death and two months afterwards.

Then, in late April, RG jumped Vesta, drawing blood. Vesta was completely surprised. I had gone downstairs to return to work on a deadline document, and DH had left the kitchen (the girls were eating dinner) :!: so they were momentarily unsupervised. RG took her opportunity. That was on a Thursday night. After that came the week of the three major injuries to ME due to RG: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. My physical therapist (post-knee surgery) was concerned about me. I was concerned about Vesta and RG. DH left it in my lap. I watched Vesta very closely, to ascertain her feelings. She gave me mixed signals. :?

Then, one evening when DH drove home and the girls heard his car, they crowded each other in the doorway to the carport. RG jumped Vesta and--this time--I could NOT separate them due to a bad angle vis-a-vis RG's back legs. (My heretofore successful maneuver of lifting RG off the ground by her back legs had been absolutely guaranteed 100% for her to let go with her teeth and regain her balance with her front feet.) I couldn't get to her back legs, and I couldn't lift her off of Vesta; RG wouldn't let go with her teeth. And, this time, Vesta fought back. She was *furious.* She was *heroic.* She was NOT going to be denied her revenge.

It was positively scary. :shock: No lie.

DH heard me through the door, screaming at the girls to STOP, LET GO, OFF, etc. He let himself in and grabbed RG's back legs, lifting her off the ground and stopping the whole spectacle. I asked him to put RG into the crate so that I could look at Vesta for injuries and then look at RG for injuries.

They both had ear lacerations; Vesta had a neck laceration. Both were "wearing" saliva of the other. Later I found a chest scrape on Vesta, but it was surficial, thank God. I cleaned them both up with liberal applications of peroxide and cotton balls, massaged their legs against stiffness (Vesta is 11+ y.o., RG 5+ y.o.), and instituted a policy of strict separation.

I also wrote a long report to the Rescue Committee, tears pouring down my face, that we would have to rehome RG. Again.

Animals come to my home to live out the rest of their lives. I have *never* willingly let one go prematurely, but RG needed a different placement for Vesta's safety and, after that last incident, for her own. It was clear that neither girl was going to back down. Vesta had been dominant her whole life, even when we had a older, second female from 2001 to 2006, and she was in place already. RG was evidently used to ruling the roost, too, and *she* wanted to be Top Dog here as well. I had no wish for either girl to kill or badly injure the other.

I had to let RG go.

She is now the center of a man's life, a man whose life was turned upside down and inside out from November 2010 through May 2011. Each month, a new disaster beset him: lost one of his dogs. lost best friend. lost job when firm where he had worked went under. lost of teenaged son tragically via accident. wife became unstable due to loss of son, their only child. marriage disintegrated. lost second dog suddenly one morning. all this time, was recovering from his own long-term medical situation. He desperately *needed* an active, emotionally needy dog like RG, who in turn needed to be the queen of the household, the only dog, the only pet.

Tears still run down my face writing paragraphs like that one. I still miss her; I probably always will. She was a smart, beautiful, sweet, fast dog. The BEST learning dog--one repetition and she knew the behavior--I've ever seen, whether in a class, my old pet-sitting business, my dog club, or anywhere. I'd put her up against a Border Collie any day; she'd have a good shot! :) But that won't happen, because she won't behave herself around Vesta. She's living with someone who needs her. I tell myself this mantra several times--well, it *was* several times a day. I'm getting it down to several times a week....

So I know very much what you're going through.

RG lived with us from 24 December 2010 until 18 June 2011.

Cynthia

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:( cynthia, thank you for your kind support. We are devastated, but things have been really tough financially for us this year, and huge vet bills just couldn't be paid. :cry: The people that have him are definately going to give him all the vet care he needs, if something needs doing, it will be done. I really hate to say it, but I think there was much more going on, with poor grizz than just the extremely stressful home he 'was' in, before we got him. He was starting to eat enough that he should have started gaining some weight, instead, he kept getting thinner, his coat was getting drier and rougher too. :?: That we couldn't figure out. We just felt we had to do something for him, to try and help him get healthier. It wasn't an easy choice at all. :cry: But for his sake we had to try. I will keep you updated on how things go. Cynthia, i feel very bad that you had to part with RG, that must have been incredibly hard too. But in your parting with RG, you obviously made a man that REALLY needed her, very happy. I have to agree with you, I doubt we will ever be able to really retire either, due to being big sucks for rescues, in anything. I just wish we could have afforded the vet bills, for Grizzy, but it was not meant to be. I sure do agree with you that Leo's are awesome dogs, bernese too. Pet's are very special, they become like your kids, that have left home. I just wish things would get better around here. It's been a real lousy year. :( I definately hear you on the alpha dog thing. Our Pom is alpha dog here, but the rescue 'large' chihuahua is also an alpha dog, and sometimes we really have to watch those two. They are not big, but they sure think so. :roll: Little brats. :)

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:cry: Well we heard from her, and he had cancer of some sort, and had to be put down. :cry: I guess at least he didn't suffer anymore from virtually starving to death. Poor boy.

We thought he was just very stressed out, and probably had worms, not so. :( Apparently he was only 76 pounds.
Last edited by Green Mantis on Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DoubleDogFarm
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Sorry :(

cynthia_h
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Location: El Cerrito, CA

Oh, God. How tragic, for all of you. I'm so sorry.

Cynthia

thanrose
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Location: Jacksonville, FLZone 9A

With all of my animals, fosters and adopted and rehabbed, I try to remember specifically the good things. Even when I could have done things better in retrospect, it's important for my sanity (what little I have!) that I think things like, "But she had four years of exuberant recovery and boundless energy instead of certain death at the pound!" Or, "He had a great foundation with his first six weeks prior to adoption."

So Griz had a home with your loving family, had a place to play and a safe place to eat and sleep. You did good. He did good. It's not the length of time: it's the quality. And when he moved on, he had what he needed at that time, too.

You still have sweet memories to recall every time you cry. And, if you will, he's somewhere over that Rainbow Bridge having a grand time.

Green Mantis
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Location: Alberta, Canada zone 1a

:cry: Thank you everyone. At least he got away from the horrible stress in his life for awhile anyway. Yes, he crossed the Rainbow Bridge. But things are much better for him there now. :( He was a really neat dog though. Leonbergers really are awesome dogs.



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