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Ozark Lady
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Ask me what was next in line after clothes?
:oops: Playstation 2, then a few necessities, Playstation 1, then a few necessities, Nintendo, then a few necessities, Sega, then a few necessities.
And these were before we replaced the cookstove or frig! ha ha...

Before you judge me too harshly, I was working long hours, and coming home to... upset... I could lose myself in games for a while, and somehow get a "vacation" from reality. Everywhere that I looked was something burned, something destroyed... only in a game could I forget.

So, some odd things are necessary. I seldom play the games except in winter now.

I am saving up for a Playstation 3 ( :roll: :lol: )

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rainbowgardener
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Hey, we'd never judge you, OL... You are a model for a lot of the rest of us. I've never tried living without electricity! I had good friends whose house burned to the ground and they lost everything that was in it, not only clothes, furnishings, etc, but photographs, mementos, heirlooms... I have some understanding of how traumatic that is, from watching them go through it.

tedln
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Microcollie,

I agree! I just wanted to see what the rationale is.

Ozark Lady,

I would never judge you or anyone else. I'm responsible for me. Everyone else is on their on. Actually your choices make perfect sense in my opinion.

Ted

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Ozark Lady
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I got a few raised eyebrows in the family when game consoles were high up on the priority list! Especially since I don't watch television! ha ha

I couldn't do without a truck. Not even a car satisfies me! Can't haul goats, hay, feed, water, nothing... I would just as soon have a motorcycle as a car, or a horse!

You know, I have never not had a phone. The landlines always went wherever we did! No matter how many miles to the closest house, they always brought us a phone. My internet is through the phone.

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applestar
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I'm enjoying the discussion but I don't want to join in because there are things I'd like to do, things that seem obvious, and there are things that I *can* do and things I can *not* do. And thinking about things that are beyond my control will make me feel sad. :(

I do like to think that what I AM doing is making some kind of a difference though.... :bouncey:

But carry on! You folks are the best! :D

tedln
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Applestar, You need to contribute. You and Ozark Lady tend to think outside the box (I hate that term, but nothing else conveys the message as well). You ladies make me scratch my head and wonder why I didn't think of that. I may never do some of the things you do, but they are certainly interesting.

Ted

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BewilderedGreenyO.o
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I've given up Soda and French Fries :lol: ... Wait .. do those count? lol

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gixxerific
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I am already a a man of simple means.

Clothes, hah I rarely if every buy clothes for my self. And I am a shorts and t-shirt kind of guy. I think I own 1 suit and very little dress clothes.

I do nee my AC as far a heat I can burn wood, but which is better environmentally really.

I do need a truck so I can haul stuff around for this and that hmm possibly the garden. But I can get by on a bike to a certain extent, I have done it before.

T.V. don't watch it don't need it, my kids might freak out though.

I do like the internet but books are good too just not as fast or helpful in the scheme of things.

Indoor plumbing not needed I use Johnny's all the time so what's the diff between that and a n outhouse. My dad used to practice the trumpet in an outhouse so as to not annoy the neighbors in his 4 family flat in St Louis when he was kid.

The only things in the garden that would be candidates on this would be city water and my tiller which are in the planning stages of being slowly phased out.

To be quite honest I want to live far away from everyone on a big plot of land than live of said land.

One of these day's. :flower:

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Ozark Lady
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Hey Gixx, here is an idea if you get that land:

https://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/home.php?cat=
I am having issues with the link... you can type in Hoegger and get the website, then in search put... cultivator and you will see these:

Deluxe Work Harness

6C-5 Strong, nylon harness, well-padded, easily adjustable with fleece lined breast strap for comfort. Now available in two styles. The regular work harness is designed for pulling our garden cultivator below. Let your favorite goat help you with the chores. Goats are easy to train and make really willing workers. The Deluxe work harness can be used as a driving harness as well as a work harness. Deluxe harness includes driving halter, reins, and shaft loops.

Goat-Powered Garden Cultivator

Invite a goat into your garden spot to help you prepare the ground for planting with this goat (or pony) drawn cultivator. Designed for us by an Amish craftsman (and goat owner), this environmentally friendly, durable gardening tool comes complete with a singletree, 3 "S" tines, and easy pulling interchangeable 1" and 2" shovels. Made with 3/4" tubular steel for the handles and 2" square tubular steel for the center frame. All bracing is 1/4" steel. Adjusts easily for varying widths and depth to provide the versatility needed to do different gardening projects. Tire size: 4.00x3.50 with tube. Turn your garden chores into a pleasurable experience for you and your favorite goat!
(Harness sold separately).

Goat powered cultivator! Tee hee...
They can eat the weeds, plow and fertilize as we go! And if you like warm milk, you can stop for refreshment!
The same work harness works with a garden cart too! Or covered wagon for the kids!

tedln
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BewilderedGreenyO.o wrote:I've given up Soda and French Fries :lol: ... Wait .. do those count? lol
They only count if you are so addicted you drive twenty miles per day to get them. That would be considered a total waste of fuel and it leaves a huge carbon footprint. I almost forgot, what kind of oil were those french fries cooked in? Do you know if the oil is recycled into biodiesel? Also, are you aware that soda is soda because the little bubbles floating to the top are carbon dioxide escaping to the atmosphere?

:D

Ted

tedln
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Dono,

You and I are very much alike. You are a man of simple means while I am a simple man of few means. In fact, many people consider me meaningless :D

I really like the way you garden. You seem to take the common sense approach to things. I have a tendency to take a sledgehammer or weed whacker to my garden if things don't work out. If you don't take Ozark Lady up on that goat thing, I may.

Ted

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Ozark Lady
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Aww thanks Marlin,
And ya know, I am going to order the training harness for the goats and start working with them.
The adults outweigh me, and with 4 feet they are alot more stable for pulling a load than I am with a wheelbarrel. Of course, I may need a bit for the halter, making it a bridle, or they may be dragging me all over the place.
If nothing else, I can train them to go eat the right of way, and keep the electric company from spraying it. I can't give up trees, and greenery!

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applestar
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Ozark Lady, I had this wacky idea when you were talking about the drought, and now that you ARE talking about putting you goats to work -- I had the impression you wouldn't do more than walking them on the lead -- I might as well voice it here... So.

If your pond holds enough water for irrigation, I was thinking you could have an auger type goat-powered water pump. You know? The auger water lifter/mover in a tube connected to a cog turned by four goats hitched to something that goes round and round?

Is that completely crazy or something do-able? :idea:)

tedln
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hhhhmmm, a whole new world built on goat power. That sounds ecologically sound to me. If Permaculture is trademarked and we are not members of the club, what can we call our ideas? Goatculture doesn't ring any bells for me.

Ted

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rainbowgardener
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I've lately been calling it natural or ecological (agriculture, farming, gardening or whatever) to distinguish from organic which is different. Ecological as in working with the ecological systems rather than disrupting them.

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tomf
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I would give up work. I would give up back pain and sore knees. I would give up headaches and colds. I would give up paying taxes.

I do my little part to be ecological but with billons of people in the world thinking people can change and live off the land is just not a fact. The fact is that having land and water to grow your own food is a luxury most people do not and cannot have. It would cause more damage if one were to spread them out, better they stay in their cities and leave the land for growing food, air and nature. We are a society and none of us are independent of each other we are all interconnected. When is the last time you made your own steel from your own ore and turned it in to a tool? I feel it is a good thing for those who can to be as self-reliant as possible. It is good to use what we have in smart ways to make things as sustainable and self-perpetuating as we can. Much of the ideas on ecological gardening do work and are simply good practices but should not be a religion.
We need to find a way not to put so much waste in to the rivers and oceans. Run off from chemical farming, industrial waste and our sewerage are destroying them. We need to find a way not to dirty the air as it is all the same air and it is what keeps the Earth alive. We need to find a way to use and extract resources with out the high level of damage we are doing. Do you really think this will happen on a large scale? My kid was in China and the photos he showed me are horrible as the air is hazy brown that is the same air we all breath.
One of the social networks put in a server facility in eastern Oregon and a number of people cried as it was using a coal plant out there for its power. Evidently the network uses a bit of electricity and the power has to come from some place. I am using power that comes from some place right now; even if I was running my home on solar power the server is not. I still think it is better than sending billons of pieces of paper delivered in millions of trucks.
I have said it before here; we are the problem there are to many of us. We need to be sustainable if some thing is not sustainable it will eventually fail. Good planets are hard to find and harder to get to. We need to do many things some of them people will not want to do or will not do. Sorry for being so real.

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Ozark Lady
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I call it "homesteading"!
I want each system to work with and compliment the other.
I have some young ducks, they need room, so I am off to cage the bed where the harlequin bugs won't go away, and since I don't use toxic poisons, I am about to use some natural predators.

I also have some baby chicks that need more room, and a newly transplanted bed, I am off to combine the two. While I am at it, I have a hen with 13 baby chicks, just itching to dig, can't do that in a cage, so she is going to get a bed that failed also, to scratch to her hearts content.

This helps the poultry, by giving them more room, but still in a protected environment.
This helps the garden with bug eradication, and manure added, plus some scratching going on.
This helps me, to organize my chores and just have the systems closer together, rather than baby animals here, there and everywhere.
And, I don't have to clean up after them, they are depositing, right where I want it to end up!

One of the listed uses for goats milk is: feeding the poultry, and watering the garden, I am serious. And hey, it will add to the good microbes in the garden. In turn the garden will raise crops to feed both the birds and goats, which will lay eggs and provide me with meat and milk... it all works together. Like a homestead should.

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Ozark Lady
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I wondered where this post went to, I didn't post it earlier, wrote it and left it on here... hmm? Too many projects at once, or senile? Okay, late but still I think worth posting. This was written a couple hours ago!

I am going to research routing my gray water, from the kitchen sink, and bathroom sink (just the 1/2 bath) to the pond.
I am concerned that it will lead to even worse algae bloom, it is so green right now, the goats won't drink it at all. I have to water them in troughs.

The pond is holding water, but it is in trouble, and there are fish in it, I don't want it to dry up. I would have to stop pouring anything that I used bleach in down it, but I don't think Dawn would hurt the pond. Now food scraps that go down the drain could be an issue (plug up lines too), I don't have a garbage disposal unit on it, but still you always get bits of food in dishwater. We looked at the idea for watering the garden, but gravity is just the wrong way for the garden, but the pond is down hill, and just west of the kitchen, it could maybe reach, but is it a good idea? I would need inline filters and clean outs.

That would leave the master bathtub and sink and washing machine to get gray water for the main garden. Still a gravity issue, but closer to it, if I have to dip and hand carry... goat cart carry? tee hee

I don't know if that will work, I was just at the barn, putting out fresh hay, and I was gathering up some alfalfa bits that are wasted (goats won't eat it once it is on the floor) and some goat "berries" to make some tea for the garden. I kept having to push goats back, they kept getting between me and what I was doing. Then they were eating my hair, and rubbing against me, try to keep your balance, when squatting to pick up goat berries with a trowel and a goat that outweighs you is loving on you and rubbing: Plop on my butt, and then it is open season, they kiss, they lick, they rearrange my hair, they 'shake hands' they put their feet up to you, they mean it nice, but hooves hurt sometimes. Needless to say, you just wish they would go eat, and let you get something done... but mama is more interesting than food. Poor starving animals! But, I can just see them, instead of pulling the cart, going in circles to get to me! Yes, really mean critters. Maybe I need less friendly ones that want to get away from me? Or maybe I need to walk in front and lead them? Hmm?

Want a good laugh? Last night just as I finished milking it got dark, I had the porch light on, no big deal. But, the light draws bugs, I have baby chicks there in a cage, and they love to catch any bugs they can.
As I approached the door, I noticed something by the knob. It didn't look like a leopard frog, didn't have the long lean lines. It looked like a toad sitting on my door knob. Just as I touched it, wondering how a toad could be on my door knob, it climbed right up the door and over onto the walls.
I watched in amazement as this 'toad' climbed the walls. I didn't know there were tree frogs that are wide and look like toads.

tedln
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Tom,

Sorry doesn't work! Especially when it isn't needed. Opinions were requested and are appreciated. Sounds like you believe everything is conditioned on individual choice. While I agree with your philosophy, it leaves me asking what if the choices you or I make unintentionally effect our neighbors downstream or downwind. I personally believe we will never have a perfect world again, but it doesn't mean each of us shouldn't try to make it a little better by doing the small things we are capable of. What I choose to do or not do (give up) not only effects me, but also effects my neighbor. My property is slightly tilted downhill towards my neighbors pond. I try to pay attention to my activities in order to prevent the results of my activities from running into his pond and killing his fish.

I agree that an expanding population searching for ways to improve their existence creates problems that can't be solved by our individual efforts. I think microcollie pointed out the importance of small, individual efforts however. So maybe the problems can be alleviated if not solved.

That is why I said I am attempting to identify where the line should be placed between realistic goals and wishful thinking.

Excellent post!

Thanks

Ted

tedln
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Ozark Lady,

I detest tree frogs. They used to cover our windows at night in Louisiana. The light coming through the windows attracted bugs. The bugs attracted tree frogs. Sometimes it was so crowded on the windows that when one moved, it would knock his neighbor to the ground. I enjoy the sound of tree frogs in the trees but thousands on the windows are overwhelming. I always enjoyed the sound of an orchestra warming up before a concert. I enjoyed picking out the sound of the different instruments. Unfortunately tree frogs can only play one loud note on one instrument and they all play it constantly. The good thing was the fact that when you turned the lights off and went to bed, the frog concert ended immediately.

Ted

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tedln wrote:hhhhmmm, a whole new world built on goat power. That sounds ecologically sound to me. If Permaculture is trademarked and we are not members of the club, what can we call our ideas?
Ted
I've been fond of the concept and the term "sustainability" for a long time. I wish our "Perm." forum were called "Sustainability" due to the issues I discussed the other day; I think it would open the applicability of the forum to more ideas and even more garden-friendly practices.

And friendly garden practices, too....both directions...

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

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Ozark Lady
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I don't know. I just got an email, that Sustainable is what the present administration is calling what they are doing. For any who oppose the present administration... sustainability would link to politics.

We need to invent our own new word, that is not attached to politics, any religion, or anything.

How bout... Natural Gardening?

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applestar
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There's [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=150151#150151]this lecture by Toby Hemenway[/url] downrating the term "sustainable" too....

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gixxerific
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Ecoculture perhaps.

It really isn't about the garden in your back yard now is it? It's more about the the big beautiful world surrounding that tiny piece of land. :idea:

cynthia_h
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"Sustainability" as a term was in use in the West (I think?) as early as '91 or '92, maybe earlier than that. Pre-industrial societies, perforce, followed sustainable methods since they had no choice. There were no outside inputs available; what they had, they used, and that was it: an absolutely closed loop. Unless they practiced slash and burn, in which case they cycled back to each location approx. every 20 years.

The "sustainable" rhetoric used in Washington is trying to hitch a ride on the established good image of sustainability. To me, this proves that the terms "sustainable" and "sustainability" already have the good reputation we're looking for. They also have the virtue of being accurate descriptors.... If we can keep these good reputations going by using good practices, the politicians' short-comings and corner-cutting, etc., will be seen for what they are: piggy-backing. :wink:

There's always John Jeavons' "closed loop/no external inputs" ideal, but that's a mouthful and rather awkward to say in a hurry.

"Natural farming" is what Fukuoka-sensei called his method; don't know if "natural gardening" is the same approach?

What a mess, thanks to the capital P "Perm." trademark garbage.... :evil:

Aw, the heck with it... The Grandeur of Goats, An Under-Appreciated Energy Source

Cynthia

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gixxerific
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I'm down with goat power as well. My wife keeps telling me we need some goats. But where I live they would not be as appreciated by the neighbors or county as they would by you guy's.

I would like nothing more than to just farm all day surrounded by chickens and goats doing their things as well.

Government sustainability. :lol: :lol: :lol: Sustainable for who? The likes of Monsanto and such. :evil:

As far as being real, in order to become truly sustainable again we need to reduce the population by 1/3 maybe 1/2. War, natural disaster whatever. If we don't it will be famine that does us in till we get to that 1/3 point and become sustainable again. :cry:

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I could do without cable/satellite TV as I am now. Having to buy school supplies for the teachers (not just my children). My wife has an addiction to telephones. Not cell phones, just regular phones. :oops:

Maybe when I retire, and the kids are gone, I'll have a bigger list.

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gixxerific
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specgrade wrote:Having to buy school supplies for the teachers (not just my children).
Bingo. The last time I checked we are paying a large steaming pile of taxes to our school. yet we still have to buy them everything.

This point was a bit OT but what they hey, since we are letting it all out, why not. :D

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rainbowgardener
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" do my little part to be ecological but with billons of people in the world thinking people can change and live off the land is just not a fact. The fact is that having land and water to grow your own food is a luxury most people do not and cannot have. It would cause more damage if one were to spread them out, better they stay in their cities and leave the land for growing food, air and nature. "

I agree that having people concentrated in cities is much "greener" than urban/ suburban sprawl, allows for efficient mass transport, etc. Not everyone can be a farmer. But a lot more people could live on and work small diversified farms.

Farming’s changing role in the Nation’s economy
1900
41 percent of workforce employed in agriculture
1930
21.5 percent of workforce employed in agriculture;
Agricultural GDP as a share of total GDP, 7.7 percent
1945
16 percent of the total labor force employed in agriculture;
Agricultural GDP as a share of total GDP, 6.8 percent
1970
4 percent of employed labor force worked in agriculture;
Agricultural GDP as a share of total GDP, 2.3 percent
2000/02
1.9 percent of employed labor force worked in agriculture (2000); Agricultural GDP as a share of total GDP (2002),
0.7 percent https://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib3/eib3.htm

When I was born, 1 in every 6 workers, worked on a farm. Now less than 1 in 50 do, and we have 10% unemployment.

In the meantime, people could do a lot more with the land they have, back yards, vacant lots, rooftop gardens. In WWI and II the cities came close to meeting their own need for veggies ("Victory Gardens") while the agricultural produce went to feed the soldiers.

"Much of the ideas on ecological gardening do work and are simply good practices but should not be a religion." I don't think anyone here takes it as religion or dogma... we are all just fumbling along trying to learn more about how to farm or garden in earth friendly, sustainable ways. We all have to make compromises with what is and what's practical and we all just have to figure out when to compromise and how much...

"We need to find a way not to put so much waste in to the rivers and oceans. Run off from chemical farming, industrial waste and our sewerage are destroying them. " The biggest single source of nitrogen runoff into rivers these days causing eutrophication which can ultimately lead to the death of rivers and lakes, isn't farms, it's suburban lawns and gardens. Farmers tend to stick closer to guidelines on how much to use, because they have a cost benefit analysis. Suburbanites wanting green lawns tend to go "if one bag is good, two must be better." Just an indication of why it is up to every one of us to work on being as earth friendly as we can.

But basically I'm agreeing with everything you said, especially


I have said it before here; we are the problem there are too many of us. We need to be sustainable if some thing is not sustainable it will eventually fail. Good planets are hard to find and harder to get to. We need to do many things some of them people will not want to do or will not do.

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I was thinking couldn't I keep miniature goats? But like Gixx's neighborhood, I doubt the idea would sit well with the zoning board. But really, why is it that people can keep Great Dane(s) and St Bernards(s) and Irish Wolfhound(s) that are the size of small ponies in their tiny yards, but we can't keep more useful animals like chickens, ducks, quails or mini goats or mini horses, for that matter? Here are somethings I'm giving up unwillingly.

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gixxerific
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Right on Apple as I said I would love to have animals on my land, of course more land would be beneficial to that as well but that is another story.

But I'm smack dab in between a small town and heavy country. We were doing a job in St Louis County I won't go into specifics. But it is basically suburbia/city dwelling. In reality it is a hellhole but they think they are the bee's knees "cause I live in ******" It's and older community so that has to do with some of it.

But what do we hear ALL morning long when we are there. A rooster crowing. Now how is it they can have roosters in the city and I live about 300-400 feet from one of then many cattle farms around here and I can not have chickens or goats or maybe and elephant? :?:

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Ozark Lady
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I read an article years ago, Mother Earth News or Dairy Goats one of the two. This lady kept a goat and 6 hens in her garage, and no one ever knew.
She sneaked her goat out at night, to have it bred, without a baby goat there is no milk, and then she kept the garage spotless, just a small can of goat "berries" deposited on her roses, and a tiny bit of manure tea made from the chickens wastes. No odor, no noise.. no one knew.

My cousin, lived in town, right across from the school. They had rabbits and hens, only roosters were outlawed. But, they were not allowed to let manure build up anywhere.

I just checked, there are 6 lots of 5 acres each all across the highway from me, and the lady does owner finance... $500.00 down and monthly payments, 15 year mortgage. She didn't tell me the prices of them all. But electricity is here now! No living without it! ha ha
There are 2 restrictions, no making it a junk yard or trashing it, and no cutting all the trees to bare ground for the whole 5 acres, you can cut enough for house, yard etc.

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Kisal
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I have said it before here; we are the problem there are too many of us
Exactly! It's why my husband and I decided to have only 1 child. :)

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That's another issue altogether. Genetically speaking, I think we need more of YOU.

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We had two and adopted one. I wish more people would adopt. The kids don't have to be from Russia or China or Africa. Plenty of kids right here in the states need parents or just someone to love them and maybe care a little.

The wife and I were foster parents for a long time. I thought about it a lot. There are simply too many mouths to feed on this earth. I decided if I was young and ready to start a family, I probably wouldn't have any birth children, just adopted children. The idea of carrying on the bloodline means nothing to me. I never wanted a Ted jr. A child is a child.

Ted

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Tedn I am not saying we should not do every thing we can to create a clean world, just the opposite. My point is we are a society living with other people and every thing we do effects us all. We are agreeing but using different words to say it. Another way of saying what I said is there is there has to be a hell of a lot of people willing to change because what they do effects us all. People like us may in some way be a part of the change. As rainbowgardner said we have lost many of our farmers over time to large-scale farming. This is a loss of family farms to corporate farms. The question is what does it take to feed all the people we need to? And how do we do this in a health environmental way. One thing I am seeing and I hope to see more of is small local farmers selling fresh and organically grown food locally, this could build local economies and create a stronger more diversified food supply. Some of the people here are doing this and using sustainable and ecologically sound methods.
Rainbow you are right about all the homeowners that miss use chemicals and a lot of them head right for the streams. You would not believe how much chemicals are dumped on some of the nurseries to keep down the weeds. Despite the fact I see the problems that face us I have hope that we may change in time. The question of this topic is a good one as it is very close to one of the solutions in that yes we may need to give up some things.
The one thing I do not wish to give up is a health planet.

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tomf
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Tedn I salute you and could not be more in agreement on adopting from the USA. Due to medical issues my wife and I did not have any children of our own. My wife’s brother is mentally and physically handicapped and when his wife died he was unable to raise his child. The state said some one needed to take him or he would go to a foster home. We took him in when he was 13 years old. He had some issues but in time he turned out to be a very nice person. He had two girls so now we have two wonderful grand children we love dearly.

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rainbowgardener
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Kisal wrote:
I have said it before here; we are the problem there are too many of us
Exactly! It's why my husband and I decided to have only 1 child. :)
Me too!

Actually I seriously considered even then (he was born in 1980) whether to have any. Given the shape the world was in and what I could see coming, I wondered what kind of world I was bringing a child into. But I decided that to give up having any child on that basis would be operating out a despair place and that's not a good input. Having a child keeps me hooked to the future and motivated to keep trying to make the world a better place for him and hopefully the grandchild he will be providing me one of these days (generations go slow in my family!).

tedln
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RBG,

Out of curiosity only, how would you feel if your son decided to adopt your only grandchild? I ask the question because I know a family where the grandparents are elderly and set up a trust directing all money to their blood grandchildren, none to the adopted grandchildren. In Texas, adopted children must be treated in a will, in the same manner as blood children. If however, you create a trust, you are allowed to designate who you wish to benefit from the trust. I think it is wrong, because the adopted children in this family have grown up with the belief they were loved equally. The reality could be devastating to them.

Ted

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rainbowgardener
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That sounds awful....

Fortunately I will never have to worry about whom to leave my money to, because I will never have money to leave behind! :)

I guess selfishly, I would be pleased if he had one bio kid that would get his smart, handsome genes passed down. But if he decided to adopt, I would certainly love that child just as well.



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