tedln
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What are you willing to give up?

We have discussed permaculture and to a lesser degree, organic gardening. I think both concepts attempt to define a method or methods by which we can attain a more healthy lifestyle and do less harm to our environment. Organic gardening seems to be defined more by things we should not do. We should not use harmful chemicals in our garden as nutrients, pesticides, or herbicides; allowing and encouraging nature to perform those roles. Permaculture or modified permaculture seems to incorporate more things we should take an active role in designing and using, including organic gardening.

To me, the total concept require us to “give upâ€

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Ozark Lady
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I haven't bought a skirt, dress, or heels since the house burned in 2008, they were never used, just momentos, so haven't been a priority.

I guess that I am taking a step backwards, my hubby is rennovating a wood burning cookstove for my kitchen. We have had it for years, actually we have 2, and this is the year that it is going into service.
This is only practical for me, we live rural, lots of power outages, and if a storm or ice prevents our getting to the propane company to get a new bottle of gas, then I am left with the electric appliances, and they are worthless during a power outage. I don't feel that I am de-foresting anything, there is enough dead branches and trees that fell during storms to keep us in home heating and cooking for a lifetime! Just pruning up the trees in the yard is alot of wood! And thinning the trees, just lets them grow larger instead of a tangled up mess.

Eating out is something we are giving up more and more. Seems the food tastes less like real food everyday, so this is not a hard choice.
It also seems that selections are getting more and more limited.

I won't give up my heat, the a/c is much more optional to me.
I spent too many years without even a fan, for the a/c to be that big of a deal. But, it sure is nice when the temps are over 100 to come in where it is only 90!

tedln
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Telephones! For me, one of the most hated devices ever invented. My wife is telephone addicted. When a new "droid" phone comes out with a new button, she has to have it. It is her hand held computer, her grocery shopping list, her access to the internet, and the most amazing thing is you can talk with other folks on it.

I refuse to upgrade my cell phone beyond a voice communication device. The only time I turn it on is when the wife makes me. For me, it only serves as a two way radio when I can't find her in Walmart.

Ted

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microcollie
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I became a vegan 25 years ago (granted more for ethical reasons than environmental) but when thinking of the energy, money, and space put into the production of meat, I think it helps the planet as well.
About 5 years ago, I began upon my journey toward eating only local. I began by not buying anything grown outside of North America, then have been trying to close the circle tighter and tighter. This is no easy feat here in western MA. There are things that I haven't found a way around...rice, wheat flour, soy, and coffee are the biggest that come to mind. Tropical fruits were really hard to leave behind, but when I cansider how far away the nearest banana or pineapple are produced, it seems worth it.

tedln
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Clothing!

I spent my working life in nice suits and ties. When I retired, all my suits, my ties, my long sleeve shirts were either given away or thrown away. I bought one Blue Blazer and a pair of Khaki slacks for funerals. They will probably be used last at my funeral. I wear shorts and a t-shirt in the summer and blue jeans and short sleeve shirts with a jacket in the winter. I keep a few nice sweaters to pull over my shirts in the winter so folks can't tell how ratty my shirts are. I use the Kiss philosophy whenever possible (Keep it simple stupid). My wife keeps telling me I need to buy some new blue jeans. I tell her the ones I have are just getting broke in.

Ted

tedln
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microcollie wrote:I became a vegan 25 years ago (granted more for ethical reasons than environmental) but when thinking of the energy, money, and space put into the production of meat, I think it helps the planet as well.
About 5 years ago, I began upon my journey toward eating only local. I began by not buying anything grown outside of North America, then have been trying to close the circle tighter and tighter. This is no easy feat here in western MA. There are things that I haven't found a way around...rice, wheat flour, soy, and coffee are the biggest that come to mind. Tropical fruits were really hard to leave behind, but when I cansider how far away the nearest banana or pineapple are produced, it seems worth it.
I agree, buying everything local would be difficult. The first problem would be identifying locally produced products. People will also lie to you about where stuff is produced. I once stopped at a roadside produce stand to get some "home grown" tomatoes. It was nothing but a pickup truck and a sun shade. I asked the guy if his tomatoes were locally grown. He said absolutely home grown organically. I could see the tomato boxes hidden behind his pickup truck. They were labeled "Fresh California Hothouse Tomatoes".

Your post scared me for a moment. When I read, I don't always read individual words. I tend to read sentences. "became a vegan 25 years ago" didn't pop into my brain the way you wrote it.

Ted

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Ozark Lady
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I started reading labels and voting for trade with my dollars.
I found Arkansas rice, and we are a large producer of it, same with wheat and soybeans.
Then you just check out the coasts and there should be lots of tropical fruits.

I was stunned that the bag of frozen corn, green beans, and green peas said...made in China. Wow! Even our basic food items?

I came home and started ordering for my garden! And I made a commitment to hit more farmers markets, and ask them about how they grew the crop, if they can't tell me, then I suspect they bought the food elsewhere.

Now after reality check has sunk in, I am working to build the soil, in micro zones to be able to grow more diverse crops than ever before.

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I don't know that "giving up" is the best approach. We own and run a very large gas powered boat. We consume far less gas than the national average in gasoline.

We spend almost all of our disposable income on health care. Since I sold my business we are insured as individuals in a stater that is among the most expensive in health insurance costs.

I have tried to work towards efficiency rather than just giving up things we appreciate. In SC, giving up AC is a non starter but we have a solar ready heat pump for the day that we can justify the expense

We earn our living as commercial landlords. With the economy the way it is we've had to work financially with all of our tenants. If we were in a normal economy, I would have long since added insulation and upgraded windows and doors. The power company there pays a favorable rate on electric buy back of solar generated power but again, it takes money to save money.

I am all for wise conservation and alternate fuel investment. I'll put my money where my mouth is when I can.

We buy cloths on sale. My suits are 20 years old as are my tuxedos [plural because 25 years ago I had a fat and thin one]. I have neckties from the 80s. My summer wardrobe is shorts and T shirts. My winter is jeans and long sleeves. I have 3 pair of shoes.

I'll give up my one 50" TV when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

The combined age of my two vehicles and one watercraft is 59 years. I still manage to burn about half the gas of the average family. When finances permit, I'll shrink my footprint even more.

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I get a lot of my "work" clothing at a thrift store. I see no sense in buying new shirts or pants just to ruin them crawling around the garden, under a car or building and painting something in my shop.

I definitely could do away with the home phone and am getting ready to do just that. Now, if I could just rid the household of cell phones. With a wife that works M-F and drives the interstate to do so, a daughter, almost 20 that is a 2nd year college student and myself that they call for every little thing, they have become a bit of a necessity since I'm away from home many times during the day.

I do own a bicycle and ride it for small errands. I also own a motorcycle that I use for errands to the store, post office and such where I don't need to carry more than a few bags or packages. It gets 42 mpg as opposed to my Chevy truck that gets about 20 mpg.

I could give up heat in the winter but that would make me a bachelor again since the wife is a bit cold blooded. I could not give up the A/C in the summer. They would have to bury me around mid June.

If I were to sit down and take inventory of the things I've accumulated over the years, I could probably get rid of a good 1/3 of it and not really miss it. It's not that I don't use some of these things from time to time, it's just that I feel I don't use them often enough to warrant keeping them. But, when I need these things I know exactly where they are and am glad to have them. What a dilemma.


And like Ozark Lady, my wife and I very seldom eat out. As I've mentioned previously, I love to cook and have been told I do it pretty darn good, so there is no reason to spend $75 on a meal I can cook in my home for $20 or less and have leftovers to boot.

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microcollie
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Ted-
I'm lucky because I live close to several small, organic growers. I also belong to a CSA, where I get the lion share of food in the summer. And no one selling at our farmer's market travels more than 30 miles or so.

Ozark Lady-
I do indeed buy Arkansas rice. It was a trick to get my co-op to carry organic Arkansas rice, because it's so much more expensive than other rice that they were afraid it would't sell. Luckily it has. I try to avoid any California produce, as it's 2000 miles away. I've yet to find a banana grown closer than Central America. (OK, I know they are grown in very small quantities in Florida, but I never see them in stores, and even Florida is farther than I'd like to go for my food.)

tedln
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Charlie, your right. "giving up" has a negative connotation that I didn't want to imply. Maybe a better way to approach it is to consider Ozark Lady and the fact that she had a house fire that destroyed everything. If it happened to you, what items would you consider absolute necessities to replace? We can assume anything not on the list is something that can be delayed or never replaced.

My wife and I used to run from hurricanes every couple of years. The first time it happened, we took a truckload of stuff with us. After three or four times, we had narrowed it down to a photo album of our kids when they were small. Everything else would simply be a donation to the hurricane.

Ted

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microcollie
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Maybe we should be thinking about which products to consume more of in order to promote those growers/producers willing to use more earth-friendly methods. I would rather buy 2 pair of jeans made from organically-grown cotton than 1 made of non-organic.

tedln
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microcollie wrote:Maybe we should be thinking about which products to consume more of in order to promote those growers/producers willing to use more earth-friendly methods. I would rather buy 2 pair of jeans made from organically-grown cotton than 1 made of non-organic.
You are making a statement with your wallet. You are telling the world what you believe in by what you purchase. I admire the practice when it is performed by individual choice. I'm not sure about the economic wisdom of the practice on a large scale. I have a hard time getting past the fact that anything labeled "organic" costs twice the price of unlabeled products. It seems if something requires less energy, fewer chemicals, less labor (Permaculture), and is equally productive, it should cost less. I'm not against it, I'm just not sure about it. I've also always wondered after you have purchased those organically grown blue jeans and you wash them the first time to get them to fit right. If you wash them in tide or era or any other commercial detergent, are they still organic jeans?

I always have to stop and consider the real impact my actions may have. It would be nice to eliminate electricity from my environment and only burn wood to cook my food. I always wonder what would be the consequences if the other seven billion people on earth followed my lead and did the same thing.

I would like to eliminate all chemicals from the environment I occupy. That would mean throwing out anything and everything I own with any plastic in it. I couldn't use walmart bags because they are plastic and I couldn't use paper bags because a tree was sacrificed to make the bag.

I'm saying those things because I am trying to determine where a logical place is to draw the line between realistic goals and wishful thinking.

Ted

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Wow! what a great discussion that all happened since this AM!

I'm not convinced that giving things up is the right way to look at this. I prefer to think about all the things I gain. I have been a vegetarian for 30+ years and I don't look at that as a sacrifice at all. What I have gained from that, along with a ton of wonderful vegetarian meals, includes an increased emphasis on cooking, growing veggies, mindfulness about what I eat, etc. (I am very healthy much more so than most people my age with no aches and pains and rarely even get a cold, but I have no way to prove that has anything to do with being vegetarian, maybe I'm just lucky).

Similarly, living without airconditioning allows me to keep my house open and airy for at least 6 months of the year (I always HATE it when it gets cold enough that we have to close everything up), hearing the birdsong from the feeders. Using my car less means walking/biking more, more exercise, more fresh air and sunshine, more healthiness....

These (and others) are lifestyle choices that I make partly to reduce my impact on the environment, but none of them are sacrifices, they all bring more joy and health into my life.
Last edited by rainbowgardener on Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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microcollie
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tedln wrote:I've also always wondered after you have purchased those organically grown blue jeans and you wash them the first time to get them to fit right. If you wash them in tide or era or any other commercial detergent, are they still organic jeans?
It's certainly better for the environment to produce the cotton organically. It's that many fewer chemicles that have been added to the planet. What happens to it after market doesn't negate that.

By spending my money on products which have been produced responsibly, be it locally, organically, ethically, etc., I feel that I'm supporting the change that I would like to see happen. It is my hope that, as more people also purchase these products, that these producers can gain market share, thereby making it feasible to sell at lower prices. If responsibly-produced products became the norm, which they're not going to do without our support, then the market would have to level off. But these products will continue to be viewed as a luxury until enough people can be persuaded to see them as necessities and make their feelings known through the marketplace.

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Ozark Lady
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Ask me what was next in line after clothes?
:oops: Playstation 2, then a few necessities, Playstation 1, then a few necessities, Nintendo, then a few necessities, Sega, then a few necessities.
And these were before we replaced the cookstove or frig! ha ha...

Before you judge me too harshly, I was working long hours, and coming home to... upset... I could lose myself in games for a while, and somehow get a "vacation" from reality. Everywhere that I looked was something burned, something destroyed... only in a game could I forget.

So, some odd things are necessary. I seldom play the games except in winter now.

I am saving up for a Playstation 3 ( :roll: :lol: )

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rainbowgardener
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Hey, we'd never judge you, OL... You are a model for a lot of the rest of us. I've never tried living without electricity! I had good friends whose house burned to the ground and they lost everything that was in it, not only clothes, furnishings, etc, but photographs, mementos, heirlooms... I have some understanding of how traumatic that is, from watching them go through it.

tedln
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Microcollie,

I agree! I just wanted to see what the rationale is.

Ozark Lady,

I would never judge you or anyone else. I'm responsible for me. Everyone else is on their on. Actually your choices make perfect sense in my opinion.

Ted

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Ozark Lady
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I got a few raised eyebrows in the family when game consoles were high up on the priority list! Especially since I don't watch television! ha ha

I couldn't do without a truck. Not even a car satisfies me! Can't haul goats, hay, feed, water, nothing... I would just as soon have a motorcycle as a car, or a horse!

You know, I have never not had a phone. The landlines always went wherever we did! No matter how many miles to the closest house, they always brought us a phone. My internet is through the phone.

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applestar
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I'm enjoying the discussion but I don't want to join in because there are things I'd like to do, things that seem obvious, and there are things that I *can* do and things I can *not* do. And thinking about things that are beyond my control will make me feel sad. :(

I do like to think that what I AM doing is making some kind of a difference though.... :bouncey:

But carry on! You folks are the best! :D

tedln
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Applestar, You need to contribute. You and Ozark Lady tend to think outside the box (I hate that term, but nothing else conveys the message as well). You ladies make me scratch my head and wonder why I didn't think of that. I may never do some of the things you do, but they are certainly interesting.

Ted

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BewilderedGreenyO.o
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I've given up Soda and French Fries :lol: ... Wait .. do those count? lol

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gixxerific
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I am already a a man of simple means.

Clothes, hah I rarely if every buy clothes for my self. And I am a shorts and t-shirt kind of guy. I think I own 1 suit and very little dress clothes.

I do nee my AC as far a heat I can burn wood, but which is better environmentally really.

I do need a truck so I can haul stuff around for this and that hmm possibly the garden. But I can get by on a bike to a certain extent, I have done it before.

T.V. don't watch it don't need it, my kids might freak out though.

I do like the internet but books are good too just not as fast or helpful in the scheme of things.

Indoor plumbing not needed I use Johnny's all the time so what's the diff between that and a n outhouse. My dad used to practice the trumpet in an outhouse so as to not annoy the neighbors in his 4 family flat in St Louis when he was kid.

The only things in the garden that would be candidates on this would be city water and my tiller which are in the planning stages of being slowly phased out.

To be quite honest I want to live far away from everyone on a big plot of land than live of said land.

One of these day's. :flower:

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Ozark Lady
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Hey Gixx, here is an idea if you get that land:

https://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/home.php?cat=
I am having issues with the link... you can type in Hoegger and get the website, then in search put... cultivator and you will see these:

Deluxe Work Harness

6C-5 Strong, nylon harness, well-padded, easily adjustable with fleece lined breast strap for comfort. Now available in two styles. The regular work harness is designed for pulling our garden cultivator below. Let your favorite goat help you with the chores. Goats are easy to train and make really willing workers. The Deluxe work harness can be used as a driving harness as well as a work harness. Deluxe harness includes driving halter, reins, and shaft loops.

Goat-Powered Garden Cultivator

Invite a goat into your garden spot to help you prepare the ground for planting with this goat (or pony) drawn cultivator. Designed for us by an Amish craftsman (and goat owner), this environmentally friendly, durable gardening tool comes complete with a singletree, 3 "S" tines, and easy pulling interchangeable 1" and 2" shovels. Made with 3/4" tubular steel for the handles and 2" square tubular steel for the center frame. All bracing is 1/4" steel. Adjusts easily for varying widths and depth to provide the versatility needed to do different gardening projects. Tire size: 4.00x3.50 with tube. Turn your garden chores into a pleasurable experience for you and your favorite goat!
(Harness sold separately).

Goat powered cultivator! Tee hee...
They can eat the weeds, plow and fertilize as we go! And if you like warm milk, you can stop for refreshment!
The same work harness works with a garden cart too! Or covered wagon for the kids!

tedln
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BewilderedGreenyO.o wrote:I've given up Soda and French Fries :lol: ... Wait .. do those count? lol
They only count if you are so addicted you drive twenty miles per day to get them. That would be considered a total waste of fuel and it leaves a huge carbon footprint. I almost forgot, what kind of oil were those french fries cooked in? Do you know if the oil is recycled into biodiesel? Also, are you aware that soda is soda because the little bubbles floating to the top are carbon dioxide escaping to the atmosphere?

:D

Ted

tedln
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Dono,

You and I are very much alike. You are a man of simple means while I am a simple man of few means. In fact, many people consider me meaningless :D

I really like the way you garden. You seem to take the common sense approach to things. I have a tendency to take a sledgehammer or weed whacker to my garden if things don't work out. If you don't take Ozark Lady up on that goat thing, I may.

Ted

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Ozark Lady
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Aww thanks Marlin,
And ya know, I am going to order the training harness for the goats and start working with them.
The adults outweigh me, and with 4 feet they are alot more stable for pulling a load than I am with a wheelbarrel. Of course, I may need a bit for the halter, making it a bridle, or they may be dragging me all over the place.
If nothing else, I can train them to go eat the right of way, and keep the electric company from spraying it. I can't give up trees, and greenery!

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applestar
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Ozark Lady, I had this wacky idea when you were talking about the drought, and now that you ARE talking about putting you goats to work -- I had the impression you wouldn't do more than walking them on the lead -- I might as well voice it here... So.

If your pond holds enough water for irrigation, I was thinking you could have an auger type goat-powered water pump. You know? The auger water lifter/mover in a tube connected to a cog turned by four goats hitched to something that goes round and round?

Is that completely crazy or something do-able? :idea:)

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hhhhmmm, a whole new world built on goat power. That sounds ecologically sound to me. If Permaculture is trademarked and we are not members of the club, what can we call our ideas? Goatculture doesn't ring any bells for me.

Ted

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rainbowgardener
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I've lately been calling it natural or ecological (agriculture, farming, gardening or whatever) to distinguish from organic which is different. Ecological as in working with the ecological systems rather than disrupting them.

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I would give up work. I would give up back pain and sore knees. I would give up headaches and colds. I would give up paying taxes.

I do my little part to be ecological but with billons of people in the world thinking people can change and live off the land is just not a fact. The fact is that having land and water to grow your own food is a luxury most people do not and cannot have. It would cause more damage if one were to spread them out, better they stay in their cities and leave the land for growing food, air and nature. We are a society and none of us are independent of each other we are all interconnected. When is the last time you made your own steel from your own ore and turned it in to a tool? I feel it is a good thing for those who can to be as self-reliant as possible. It is good to use what we have in smart ways to make things as sustainable and self-perpetuating as we can. Much of the ideas on ecological gardening do work and are simply good practices but should not be a religion.
We need to find a way not to put so much waste in to the rivers and oceans. Run off from chemical farming, industrial waste and our sewerage are destroying them. We need to find a way not to dirty the air as it is all the same air and it is what keeps the Earth alive. We need to find a way to use and extract resources with out the high level of damage we are doing. Do you really think this will happen on a large scale? My kid was in China and the photos he showed me are horrible as the air is hazy brown that is the same air we all breath.
One of the social networks put in a server facility in eastern Oregon and a number of people cried as it was using a coal plant out there for its power. Evidently the network uses a bit of electricity and the power has to come from some place. I am using power that comes from some place right now; even if I was running my home on solar power the server is not. I still think it is better than sending billons of pieces of paper delivered in millions of trucks.
I have said it before here; we are the problem there are to many of us. We need to be sustainable if some thing is not sustainable it will eventually fail. Good planets are hard to find and harder to get to. We need to do many things some of them people will not want to do or will not do. Sorry for being so real.

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Ozark Lady
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I call it "homesteading"!
I want each system to work with and compliment the other.
I have some young ducks, they need room, so I am off to cage the bed where the harlequin bugs won't go away, and since I don't use toxic poisons, I am about to use some natural predators.

I also have some baby chicks that need more room, and a newly transplanted bed, I am off to combine the two. While I am at it, I have a hen with 13 baby chicks, just itching to dig, can't do that in a cage, so she is going to get a bed that failed also, to scratch to her hearts content.

This helps the poultry, by giving them more room, but still in a protected environment.
This helps the garden with bug eradication, and manure added, plus some scratching going on.
This helps me, to organize my chores and just have the systems closer together, rather than baby animals here, there and everywhere.
And, I don't have to clean up after them, they are depositing, right where I want it to end up!

One of the listed uses for goats milk is: feeding the poultry, and watering the garden, I am serious. And hey, it will add to the good microbes in the garden. In turn the garden will raise crops to feed both the birds and goats, which will lay eggs and provide me with meat and milk... it all works together. Like a homestead should.

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Ozark Lady
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I wondered where this post went to, I didn't post it earlier, wrote it and left it on here... hmm? Too many projects at once, or senile? Okay, late but still I think worth posting. This was written a couple hours ago!

I am going to research routing my gray water, from the kitchen sink, and bathroom sink (just the 1/2 bath) to the pond.
I am concerned that it will lead to even worse algae bloom, it is so green right now, the goats won't drink it at all. I have to water them in troughs.

The pond is holding water, but it is in trouble, and there are fish in it, I don't want it to dry up. I would have to stop pouring anything that I used bleach in down it, but I don't think Dawn would hurt the pond. Now food scraps that go down the drain could be an issue (plug up lines too), I don't have a garbage disposal unit on it, but still you always get bits of food in dishwater. We looked at the idea for watering the garden, but gravity is just the wrong way for the garden, but the pond is down hill, and just west of the kitchen, it could maybe reach, but is it a good idea? I would need inline filters and clean outs.

That would leave the master bathtub and sink and washing machine to get gray water for the main garden. Still a gravity issue, but closer to it, if I have to dip and hand carry... goat cart carry? tee hee

I don't know if that will work, I was just at the barn, putting out fresh hay, and I was gathering up some alfalfa bits that are wasted (goats won't eat it once it is on the floor) and some goat "berries" to make some tea for the garden. I kept having to push goats back, they kept getting between me and what I was doing. Then they were eating my hair, and rubbing against me, try to keep your balance, when squatting to pick up goat berries with a trowel and a goat that outweighs you is loving on you and rubbing: Plop on my butt, and then it is open season, they kiss, they lick, they rearrange my hair, they 'shake hands' they put their feet up to you, they mean it nice, but hooves hurt sometimes. Needless to say, you just wish they would go eat, and let you get something done... but mama is more interesting than food. Poor starving animals! But, I can just see them, instead of pulling the cart, going in circles to get to me! Yes, really mean critters. Maybe I need less friendly ones that want to get away from me? Or maybe I need to walk in front and lead them? Hmm?

Want a good laugh? Last night just as I finished milking it got dark, I had the porch light on, no big deal. But, the light draws bugs, I have baby chicks there in a cage, and they love to catch any bugs they can.
As I approached the door, I noticed something by the knob. It didn't look like a leopard frog, didn't have the long lean lines. It looked like a toad sitting on my door knob. Just as I touched it, wondering how a toad could be on my door knob, it climbed right up the door and over onto the walls.
I watched in amazement as this 'toad' climbed the walls. I didn't know there were tree frogs that are wide and look like toads.

tedln
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Tom,

Sorry doesn't work! Especially when it isn't needed. Opinions were requested and are appreciated. Sounds like you believe everything is conditioned on individual choice. While I agree with your philosophy, it leaves me asking what if the choices you or I make unintentionally effect our neighbors downstream or downwind. I personally believe we will never have a perfect world again, but it doesn't mean each of us shouldn't try to make it a little better by doing the small things we are capable of. What I choose to do or not do (give up) not only effects me, but also effects my neighbor. My property is slightly tilted downhill towards my neighbors pond. I try to pay attention to my activities in order to prevent the results of my activities from running into his pond and killing his fish.

I agree that an expanding population searching for ways to improve their existence creates problems that can't be solved by our individual efforts. I think microcollie pointed out the importance of small, individual efforts however. So maybe the problems can be alleviated if not solved.

That is why I said I am attempting to identify where the line should be placed between realistic goals and wishful thinking.

Excellent post!

Thanks

Ted

tedln
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Ozark Lady,

I detest tree frogs. They used to cover our windows at night in Louisiana. The light coming through the windows attracted bugs. The bugs attracted tree frogs. Sometimes it was so crowded on the windows that when one moved, it would knock his neighbor to the ground. I enjoy the sound of tree frogs in the trees but thousands on the windows are overwhelming. I always enjoyed the sound of an orchestra warming up before a concert. I enjoyed picking out the sound of the different instruments. Unfortunately tree frogs can only play one loud note on one instrument and they all play it constantly. The good thing was the fact that when you turned the lights off and went to bed, the frog concert ended immediately.

Ted

cynthia_h
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tedln wrote:hhhhmmm, a whole new world built on goat power. That sounds ecologically sound to me. If Permaculture is trademarked and we are not members of the club, what can we call our ideas?
Ted
I've been fond of the concept and the term "sustainability" for a long time. I wish our "Perm." forum were called "Sustainability" due to the issues I discussed the other day; I think it would open the applicability of the forum to more ideas and even more garden-friendly practices.

And friendly garden practices, too....both directions...

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

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Ozark Lady
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I don't know. I just got an email, that Sustainable is what the present administration is calling what they are doing. For any who oppose the present administration... sustainability would link to politics.

We need to invent our own new word, that is not attached to politics, any religion, or anything.

How bout... Natural Gardening?

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applestar
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There's [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=150151#150151]this lecture by Toby Hemenway[/url] downrating the term "sustainable" too....

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gixxerific
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Ecoculture perhaps.

It really isn't about the garden in your back yard now is it? It's more about the the big beautiful world surrounding that tiny piece of land. :idea:

cynthia_h
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"Sustainability" as a term was in use in the West (I think?) as early as '91 or '92, maybe earlier than that. Pre-industrial societies, perforce, followed sustainable methods since they had no choice. There were no outside inputs available; what they had, they used, and that was it: an absolutely closed loop. Unless they practiced slash and burn, in which case they cycled back to each location approx. every 20 years.

The "sustainable" rhetoric used in Washington is trying to hitch a ride on the established good image of sustainability. To me, this proves that the terms "sustainable" and "sustainability" already have the good reputation we're looking for. They also have the virtue of being accurate descriptors.... If we can keep these good reputations going by using good practices, the politicians' short-comings and corner-cutting, etc., will be seen for what they are: piggy-backing. :wink:

There's always John Jeavons' "closed loop/no external inputs" ideal, but that's a mouthful and rather awkward to say in a hurry.

"Natural farming" is what Fukuoka-sensei called his method; don't know if "natural gardening" is the same approach?

What a mess, thanks to the capital P "Perm." trademark garbage.... :evil:

Aw, the heck with it... The Grandeur of Goats, An Under-Appreciated Energy Source

Cynthia



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