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Ozark Lady
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The Best Forum in the World, with the Best of the Best Folks

I am in other forums.

And I have come to the conclusion, that this is the Best Forum in the World with the Best of the Best Folks!

I just really took a beating in another forum, to the point, I am seriously checking my sanity in even posting there. I thought it was a great forum, not good as this one, but good. Then I posted a harmless question, and the arguments went crazy. I was attacked for things, that I never even said or did. I asked for the whole thread to be deleted. And instead the webmaster joined the attack! I am serious. Then the webmaster came back with how wonderful that I posted there, and what did I think.
GRRRR!

Well, I deleted everything that I could there, and simply logged out, and deleted the shortcut. It will be a very long time before I will return there, if ever!

You know folks, we really owe the staff here alot. They are so sweet and kind. We can see things from other perspectives, not always agree, or simply not understand, and things are still controlled. We may feel momentary discomforts, no one likes to be told no, or you are wrong etc. But it never becomes a brawl!

I have been mangled, and it has really soured me on permaculture.... I need healing. I find that I resent anything even in that area. That is wrong of me, I need to blow it off, consider the source and not let bad attitudes, and poor judgement of staff turn me off forever.

How mangled did I get? Well, I got compared to the Acorn scandal for simply clearing me a garden spot! I got told that I was going to hell, for having a garden! Can you believe that?

I feel good about milking my goats, free range chickens, we don't eat their eggs or meat, we are letting the number build up, I am clearing to grow small grains, and ensilage corn to feed my animals... lowering my dependence on trucked in food and feed for the animals. I am only clearing a small area in comparison to the total acreage. And if you see photos, I only clear enough to get sunshine to the ground. Forests are a renewable resource, petroleum is not. So, I guess I just am not a permaculturist, at least in the eyes of the other forum.

I hope that any on here who are permaculturists, can hold my hand and lead me into it gradually, and gently. Not with a huge club and mob... and I know... the staff won't let ya do a mass beating here! :lol: (joking) Because I think folks here don't even want to do it. Being cruel and negative to folks and attacking does not teach them anything at all. They no longer have the opportunity to impact my life in any fashion at all. They lost the opportunity to teach me what they believe!

I love this forum, and love all you guys.
Bad days elsewhere just reminds us, how wonderful our friends here are. Like when Austin was hurt, you guys were my comfort. Thanks.
And he is fine, just a kid again, with a few over protective rules.. ha ha

I just wanted to take a moment to brag on the staff here, and tell all of you, how wonderful you are. And how great that we can accept each other differences and all! I really feel like we are a club, and that we share our lives and good times and bad, and we are FRIENDS!

Thanks for putting up with me, and my whacky sense of humor etc.

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applestar
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Aww. I really feel bad for you Ozark Lady. The faceless excuse to beat up on people they don't even know is the worst of the worst negative tendencies created by the Internet.

:? :? :?

I have also noticed that clique, cabal, narrow-focus mentality in the Permaculture "club" Not having paid somebody to take the "official" courses and workshops is heavily frowned upon, quoting one or the other master Guru is the "de rigueur," and there is an undercurrent that is sometimes not so below the surface -- that RIGHT is RIGHT and EVERYTHING ELSE IS WRONG. Something I cannot, in principle, acquiesce to. :|

Stick around. Learning is an individual achievement, but it's fun to brainstorm and share our trials and tribulations. We'll all figure it out together. :wink:

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Ozark Lady
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Thanks Apple.

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applestar
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Best to let them huddle around their ecologically friendly campfire and eat their organically grown and gathered crow.
Marlingardener, I LOVE that! :lol:

cynthia_h
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Dear (and I mean that) Ozark LADY:

You are working hard at being helpful to others and at being as self-sustaining as possible. Those are two incredibly worthwhile life goals. You also serve as a worthy grandmother and loving relative to many others, and no doubt are a sturdy and reliable friend.

You might like reading, or at least taking a look, at John Jeavons' How to Grow More Vegetables... (7th ed.). I've read it numerous times, and I learn something new each time. (Once, I mis-read how far apart to plant rhubarb; the next time, I figured out why my rhubarb was taking over! :wink:) His point of view is that being self-sustaining is a GOAL. He doesn't address animal husbandry; that's an additional, humane complication you deal with. Jeavons doesn't address using wood for heat/ashes; that's another complication you're working with. But his tone of voice is friendly and educational, and makes the reader want to try at least parts of his system--the parts that work for that reader.

No attacks on the reader's lack of "purity." No threats of the world going to hell in a handbasket if we don't all become pure right this minute. His statistics do awaken a sense of awareness, though, and in that sense are educational; however, he doesn't then take a big rhetorical stick and beat the reader over the head with it. He gives facts and lets the reader learn. Then Jeavons gives tools--yes, TOOLS--so that the reader can implement whatever is within his/her grasp and ultimate reach.

This approach and tone of voice, and not just the bare-bones facts of planting, are why I recommend him so frequently. Jeavons' book is good for the spirit.

For a bruised and attacked spirit such as yours, I would just say, Go out to those friendly goats and chickens and give 'em a hug from me. Look upon the vegetable beds and feel satisfaction at your work. Enjoy the sunshine which they receive because of your work in removing former blocks to their happiness. I'm sure the removed trees are still serving in some way: compost, firewood, something.

My impression is that nothing, and especially not human effort, is wasted at your abode.

Cynthia H.

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Ozark Lady
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Thanks, Marlin, Apple, and Cynthia,
I did just that, I went and played with the goats, the stray cat, the chickens and even the new litter of stock dogs.

I haven't looked at the garden yet, it is next in line, but I needed a drink first. Oops the rain hit again, so okay transplanting inside for now.

I remember Jeavons from many years ago. I had Mother Earth News all the way back to the beginning issues, my Mother-in-law had collected them, and when she saw me pick some up at a yard sale, she gave me all of her old issues... A big collection. Had is the key here, the house fire removed them, but not the wisdom from those pages that managed to stick in my little brain!

And I even went and checked out the definition of permaculture and learned how it started and all that. This was yesterday, when the attack was still just uncomfortable, not full blown mobbing.

I don't claim to know alot, but the little that I do know, or my experiences I am more than willing to share. Sometimes my mess-ups can save someone else from doing the same.

I do garden organically, I always have, thanks to my allergies. Chemicals always triggered them! But, I try not to fault the folks who use chemical fertilizers and pesticides, I just look for alternatives.

My philosophy is: Work within what you know, learn new stuff all the time, examine the new, and see where you might be able to apply it. If it fails; look to see how or why. If it works, then embrace it.

I like the eating organic crow in their little huddle. But, really, if you are passionate about something, don't you want to teach others so they get passionate too? How is attacking accomplishing that? If some more level heads don't step up then permaculture will destroy itself from within, because the movement won't grow. To grow a movement, they need to show value, show logic, show kindness to folks who are interested in taking the time to learn about it.

Instead of the huddle, I envisioned someone in a high rise condominium, dictating a philosophy who has never walked in a forest, milked a goat, or sat and watched the crawdads in a stream! I think their permaculture experience is the lettuce growing in the den!

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tomf
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I am sending you a big hug.
People some times get a bit carried aways with what they think and feel. I alway remember there is more I do not know than I know and that other people may be right also. There may be more than one way of looking at things and more than one way to do things. An open mind does not have to lash out at others.
One of the things I like about this forum is that the people here are civil and I can tell that there is a kindness in them. Most people here are very helpful and I like reading and learning from them.
Last edited by tomf on Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ozark Lady
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Thanks Tom,

I think you are right, some folks are so closed minded. They don't see there are other ways of still reaching a goal.

Personally, I believe that the 85% of my land that is natural forest is pretty good, and if I use 15% for housing, animal housing and gardening, I think I am doing a pretty good job of protecting my environment. Maybe, I should aim for 100% live in a tree like Tarzan and swing on grape vines, eat like the monkeys? Oh wait, no monkeys here! ha ha Eat like a raccoon! nutz: Leaves for clothes? Where do I put my computer?

I wonder if the mob are all living in caves and hunting with spears so as not to affect the environment? Want to bet they are in a big city and surrounded by cement, and the forest is like paradise to them, so they think no one should ever touch it?

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tomf
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No all the people who talked down to you are using a computer and live in houses.

Like you most of my land is in forest and I do a lot to make wild life habitat by making a mix of meadows and woods. We also are making fresh air and sinking carbon for other people by having the trees. I clean far more air than I dirty.
Last edited by tomf on Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ozark Lady
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Some of us, just plain like nature, like woods, meadows, lakes, and streams, and just want to take the time to see it all.

I notice that I am getting more variety of wild birds here every year that goes by, I don't know why. Maybe, they were always here, and I am just slowing down enough to see them. I didn't see much when I was at work for long hours, and travel time etc.

Sadly, the honeybees are missing this year. I haven't seen even one. I would like to believe they belonged to someone, and got sold, but I am very concerned that they didn't survive the terrible winter, and that saddens me greatly, although I gained nothing by seeing them, except the joy of seeing them. There are plenty of other pollinators here. And I never knew where they lived.

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gixxerific
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Very sorry for your bad encounter. :(

I feel everything you are saying. Yes this is the best site on the web. I have been preaching that myself for quite a while. I belong to a few other forums but rarely go there and why should I when we have HG. Those forums are okay but like you said there are a bunch out there that just don't get it. They don't know how to treat people and a lot of the times don't even know what they are talking about.

I'm very glad you showed up here you are fun to interact with and knowledgeable as well. Stick around and lets learn some stuff together.

Dono :flower:

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Ozark Lady
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Thanks Gixx,
I am not going anywhere, this is home!

And I am learning, it is nice to visit, but there's no place like home.
I seldom visit other forums also, but some are different aspects, like my Goat Forum, that is unique and I go there for goatie questions or concerns. And they seem sweet and caring too. But, I don't go there daily. I do check in occassionally. Especially when I need input. But, I check in to help others too.

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rainbowgardener
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Thanks for the kind words OL and everyone... we do work at maintaining a friendly, helpful, and polite atmosphere around here. And we have a lovely beneficial spiral going on where a nice atmosphere attracts nice people.

I didn't realize how different we are. But the other day I was looking something up and my search took me by accident to a magic mushroom forum (that is NOT what I was looking up! :) ). Oh man, the language on that forum singed my eyeballs just to look at it! Made me appreciate what we have here!

ronbre
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I sure don't blame you for leaving..you were brutally attacked..I'd be in tears.

anyway..I came her to help you thru it..and find out about this forum ..but to tell the truth..I"m totally at a loss at how to find anything on this forum, the way I found this was to do a search for your name..and it popped up..but I don't know where to find the different threads and whatnot..so I'm totally lost.

anyway..glad you are getting good support here..Brenda from "you know where"..

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rainbowgardener
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Start with the Garden Forum home page/ index

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/

when you come to www.helpfulgardener.com GARDEN FORUM is about half way down in the right hand navigation menu. That will take you to the above index page.

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Ozark Lady
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Thanks Brenda, I knew it was you as soon as I saw the espalier post. She is my witness, it was bad!
But, it is over, life goes on, and I gained a wonderful friend, and folks this lady is awesome, please meet and welcome Brenda!

We won't let you stay lost... we will escort ya, wherever you would like to go!

Dixana
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OL you should never let other peoples attitudes get you down. You're one of the nicest people here and living the way you do is in a lot of ways better than outright 100% permaculture. Being as self sustaining as possible while doing our best to preserve our land and still provide habitat for wildlife should be everyones goal.
Anyone who passes judgement on someone else for clearing some of their OWN LAND to feed their animals with organically grown, not transported in feed is obviously not looking at the big picture.

My hubby and I have a life plan. Right now we live in town but are saving our pennies to get our land in the country. We're going to buy a fairly large chunk of farmland (60-80 acres). Build our house with the most renewable materials possible. Plants trees and grow wildflowers where there was only open cultivated field. Install solar panels and small wind turbines to live "off grid". We are also upgrading to a diesel truck to convert to biodiesel, all that leftover restaraunt oil has to go somewhere right?
Anyone who tells me these plans are stupid or go against "the greater good" is not looking at the big picture. If we can sustain our family with renewable resources, and us and our extended family on vegetables, fruit, and grassfed free roaming animals, HOW is that hurting the earth???
If everyone lived like you do OL, the world would be better, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

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Ozark Lady
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Aww thanks Dixanna,
I appreciate that, but I haven't reached those goals yet.

We bought this land from the owner, and it was $500.00 and so much per month on a 15 year contract. We just got it paid off.

We didn't live in town and save our pennies, we found a $300.00 mobile home, and moved it here, and began. We had 35 goats, 4 sons, and little money, with a forest. It was so wooded we had to clear for a week just to get the little mobile in here.

We lived without electricity for a few more years, we had already just done 10 years without electricity, so it wasn't a big shock.

In 2004, the land beside us was subdivided, and the new owner asked what we wanted, so he subdivided it in such a way that we got another 10 acres and it ran the length of the property, so that is more monthly payments, but we increased. That was also $500.00 down and make payments. This is not paid off yet.

My advice is don't wait. Look for owner financing. Look for deals, they are out there.

We have a neighbor who bought a mansion, not finished, and 18 acres for $100,000 owner financing. It is gorgeous! But, it needs work, it needs finishing, that is the barter where I got my atrium for my husbands work! If you add up just the purchase price, my land was $80,000. But for 20,000 more he got 2 less acres, right on the lake, and a huge mansion, that only has one floor finished, but the one floor is bigger than most houses! What a deal!

One of my sons is renting a house, with an option, it is also in the woods, and the owner is willing to apply all rent to purchase, if he decides to buy it, he has 5 years to decide. So, that would be a huge downpayment, 5 years of rent! I think it has 5 or more acres too.

Look around, save up a little money, and go for it! Live that dream now!
With the economy like it is right now, many folks are willing to make deals rather than just lose property etc.

Dixana
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:( we're stuck in our house until dec 2012 unless we want to pay back the tax credit. We pretty much know where we're getting our land though :)
The only uoside to it is this house will be a nice rental :D

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engineeredgarden
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I just wanted to say that I am here for exactly the same reason - other forums have people that are always wanting to get into arguments about stuff, and really try to belittle a person. My worst experiences were visiting forums that had a single contributor that was obviously labeled "leader" by majority vote. I'm just glad those particular people don't come here - as I'm sure it would cause problems. I love this forum, and truly feel that this is where I was supposed to be all along. :-)

EG

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Ozark Lady
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I really believe that most of us here, are in the same boat, we are trying to live a better life, have better food, have some fun. And most of us don't feel "I have arrived!" "I am master of my world" :lol:

We all have our own ways, our own problems, and our own triumphs, but most of us are willing to experiment, to at least listen to others ideas, evaluate them in light of our situation and decide to implement them or not. And we know that just because something fits our style, our situation, that does NOT mean it will fit everyone.

If we were all identical, we would only need one flavor of ice cream! Which flavor would it be? My vote: Strawberry Cheesecake! ha ha But, on man sherbet, I love all sherbets, hmmm very difficult! It is the same with gardening, we have our favorite things to do, and yet we have other things that we like to try occasionally too.

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jal_ut
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And I have come to the conclusion, that this is the Best Forum in the World with the Best of the Best Folks!
I have to agree.

Green Mantis
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OZARK LADY, I TOTALLY agree with you!!! This is the best Forum going and I LOVE it for the exact same reasons you do. I go on a couple of other forums, not often anymore. All they want to do is argue and fight with each other!!!!!---They are for people with various types of reptiles--frogs, toads,lizards etc. Way too intense for me! YES PLEASE keep up the GREAT work here, we all LOVE you for it! It's such a friendly place to come and ask questions, even if they are dumb ones sometimes. Thanks everybody, let's keep it HAPPY ALWAYS!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

tedln
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Ozark Lady,

I started to tell you how sorry I was that idiots forced you to leave the other forum. Then I looked at the date of the original post and realized it was back in May. I guess belated sympathy is okay.

You were right back in May though. This is a good forum. Lots of diversity. Lots of different opinions, and they put up with me. Can't get any better than that. (I think I may have been on that other forum also. I got banned for disagreeing with the resident guru on dirt. I don't understand, he was an idiot.)

Ted

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Ozark Lady
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Thanks Ted, I needed a reminder.
This forum is leaning awfully hard to the permie side of things.
But there are alot of wonderful folks here.
I guess, I can share recipes, and enjoy the friendships.
And keep my gardening techniques to myself!

tedln
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Ozark Lady wrote:Thanks Ted, I needed a reminder.
This forum is leaning awfully hard to the permie side of things.
But there are alot of wonderful folks here.
I guess, I can share recipes, and enjoy the friendships.
And keep my gardening techniques to myself!
Nope! Don't keep your opinions about gardening to yourself. If we all do that, no one will learn anything including me. I don't even care which way the wind is blowing. I grew up in the Texas panhandle. The wind always blows from the south west. I learned early how to stand up by leaning into the wind. I do things my way and if anyone is interested in it, I'm more than happy to tell them.

Ted

pepper4
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Ozark Lady, just wanted to say I enjoy your posts and have learned more then you'll ever know from you and the other folks here and this is only my second year. Can't wait to learn more and maybe I can help some folks out. I have only been on 1 other forum and it was for pets. Somehow they got off the beat and people were talking or should I say arqueing about subjects that weren't remotely related. I have asked what I have felt was some stupid questions but nobody made me feel that way. I have always gotten useful information to try or look into. Tedlns right. don't keep your gardening techniques to yourself. You have alot of good ideas and if you keep them to yourself people like myself and others may not learn something you know or have experienced. Even though I have never met anyone on this site I feel they are friends including you. You are right we are all different but if we werent and there was only 1 choice of ice-cream hopefully it would be butter pecan. HA! HA!

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applestar
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Hmm.... You'll let me know if *I*m getting a on your nerves, won't you, OL?
If anyone hasn't noticed, I can get obsessed -- no! really? :lol: -- and I take the bit and run! :>

You may also be feeling elevation in "permi-ness" going on around here right now because some of us are reading the One Straw Revolution in the Book Club. :wink:

And for the record, I never quite fit in over yonder that you're talking about either. :roll: I love the wealth of information and variety and innovation in gardening experience and techniques floating around here, freely offered. Sometimes with extra helpings 8), but generally with good intentions. :D

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Ozark Lady
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Maybe it is just the drought taking a toll on me. I had such high hopes for 2010. I put more effort into the 2010 garden than all the last 5 years combined and stacked up! And got about the usual for all my effort.
Then, if feels like, somehow, I am to blame, that is why the garden failed!

No Apple, you have never pushed me. If ya did, I think we are close enough that I would pm you and say... whatzup. Maybe it is just sadness of the garden?

Hey, I bet it is the book, because the last book, I partied when it was over with and folks got back to being themselves!
I just want you guys to be YOU not some guy in a book!

When the garden flops, I don't want to hear... it is your fault you should have done this or that... I want a shoulder! I want a kleenex!

In another forum, I keep getting told... get a tractor get that all plowed a few times before next year, add some good old 10-10-10 and pesticides, herbicides etc, and all your problems will be solved.

Even my husband is looking at the garden and going... plow, 10-10-10 spray pesticides. I compromised, I handed him the fish meal, bone meal, and wood ashes and told him use this... then gave him the Bt, liquid fish meal, and milk and told him to spray till his heart is content. Now he is out dusting with the DE and giving me, yeah right looks, wanting some poison... not my toys.

My way is definitely not working this year. I have a new book, so it is back to the basics and go from here, at least I don't have chemical buildup in my soil, it was a forest to begin with 15 years ago. And the new garden was a forest.. gee in 2010 and still is! We aren't taking out trees of any size, mostly just looking for natural clearings and planting there. In the main garden, I have neutral pH, high potassium, and high phosphorous and likely copper deficiency... hmmm And the red clay is no longer red, it has changed into top soil finally, but not garden soil, not yet.

cynthia_h
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Let us please not become a permaculture forum in disguise, whether deep disguise or not. The only two Permies whose names I recognize seem to have gone off the deep end of rationality and civil, polite discourse, and I want nothing to do with them.

There may be other permaculture enthusiasts out there who *are* rational, civil, and polite--mathematics, if nothing else, says there are--but if so, that doesn't mean the mission of this forum needs to change....

OL, you may be facing more difficulties than most of us simply because forest soil *is* different from vegetable-growing soil. I think a lot of the explanation is in the Teaming with Microbes book. Unfortunately, just as I checked the book out from the library a couple of weeks ago, more canine health disaster struck my household and I simply turned the book back in to the library.

Gardeners everywhere in North America are having a hard time this summer; the weather is acting weird due to the unusual temperatures in the eastern Pacific. This gives rise to cool temps on the West Coast and raises temps on the East Coast. Yes, for weeks and weeks at a time.... :sigh:

Both you and I are making compost, feeding the soil, doing the best we can with what we have (both materials-wise and information-wise). It will come around for us; it's just taking WAY TOO LONG....

Cynthia

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tomf
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We have a large number of diverse people here some grow plants in pots in their house and some are actual farmers, we all have one thing in common; we love to see things grow.

I have gardened and tried different methods of gardening over the years and right now I am doing a till method. I then work some of my rows into mounded beds. As my soil improves I expect better results but so far I think I am doing well.

I get a number of advice from people who live in the city as what I should do, I listen to them as some of it may be good but it is amazing how many experts there are that have never done what I do all the time and want to tell me what I should be doing. I do not mean to come off harsh but some of it is actually silly, I am polite to them and some times I even take the time to tell them the reasons what they are saying would not work for me. Of course every once in a while some one has a good idea I may use, I try to keep an open mind but then stuff leaks out.
:lol:

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Ozark Lady
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I have a 7 year old grand child, and when she learns a fact, she has to tell everyone, educate everyone... even though she barely knows her fact. But, armed with a little knowledge...

Each bit that we learn is like a new revelation to us, and we gotta tell someone, and we are so proud of what we just learned!

You know the one thing that I just don't get?
So many gardeners will say... no shade on your garden at all, all day full sun. I can't do that, nothing will survive. And I just don't get it, I just can't connect the dots... is that only at certain elevations? is that with real garden soil? I can see that the north gets long days, but they get less intensity of sun, but folks about the same on the north south scale some need alot of sun, and some do better with less. Why?
Is it elevation? I have some plants in full sun, I water them daily, I feed them, I do all I can for them, and they are dying. I have plants in 8 hours of sun, and they are prospering, with less watering, less feeding, why? and I have some plants, that I got too close to the peach tree, they are growing and fairly healthy, but not fruiting so great, with that amount of shade. The peach limbs are drooping under the weight of the fruit, otherwise they wouldn't be shading those plants.

Also I hear, plow that dirt, get it ready to receive water, water can't enter hard crusted soil. But, unless you are going to water it immediately, doesn't breaking up the soil, cause faster moisture loss? I just don't get it. Then you have no till... how does the water get through that hard crust? And a lady told me, (she was standing in my garden) get rid of that mulch, it is preventing water from getting to the plants. Another visitor said: You see those rocks? Don't you know plants can't grow in rocks? Get that dug and get those rocks outta there.

Sheesh!

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applestar
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Ozark Lady, those are interesting (well troublesome to you :?) issues, and would make excellent individual threads that we can tackle together if you'd like to.... :?:

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tomf
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Cofusedashell say’

An open mind let’s learning in, we often learn from others but we must trust our self’s in what we have learned.

There is no pert like an expert.

I like this one; Experience leads to good judgment that leads to good decisions.
But experience often comes from bad decisions.

One thing about people with extreme views is they are not open minded and believe their way is the only way, therefore as much as they think they are, they are not enlightened.

I think a bit of laughter every day will make you happier and healthier, so this was my little bit to make you all healthier and lighten your burdens.

Whenever I do some thing new to me I read about it and do some research on it, then I find people who have done it and ask them about it. I am not afraid to say I do not know some thing as admitting ignorance about some thing is the first steep in curing it. We are all ignorant of some thing, just different things.

If I get any deeper I may have to start my own cult, hay that may work out good for my bank account. Ok send me $39.99 plus shipping and I will send you nothing and put you at level 12. And your vegetables will all be happy. If you eat happy vegetables you will be happy and will not need drugs. Hay that last part may be true! :lol: :roll: :wink: :)

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Ozark Lady
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Have I ever told the story of the old man, the boy, and the donkey?

It bears repeating:
An old man, a boy and a donkey were travelling companions.
They walked into town A: and folks were shocked that the poor little boy was walking, with a perfectly good donkey right there.

So they walked to the next town B: and just before entering town the boy got up on the donkey. and folks were shocked that the boy would ride and that poor old man had to walk.

So they walked to town C: and just before entering the man and the boy got up on the donkey. And folks were shocked at the inhumane treatment of the poor donkey.

So they walked to town D: and the old man picked up the boy, and the donkey and carried them into town. The whole town gathered to laugh and point at the sight of this fool.

Moral of the story, you can't please everyone, so you just pick your poison and let the chips fall. So the three just continued walking, and no one carried anyone at all!

tedln
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As we were riding some of the beautiful valleys in the high mountains of Colorado last month, I kept thinking about the beautiful, lush gardens that could be grown in that environment. As I thought about it, I realized the soil is great, the temperature is perfect, but crops can't grow here. The season is simply to short. The only thing that can grow is wild flowers and their season is very short.

I think growing a garden is a combination of not to little and not to much sunlight, good soil, sufficient moisture, and planting the right crop in the right place. I wish I could grow brassicas, but I can't. I have very short periods in the spring and fall that are perfect for brassicas, but those periods are simply to short for a successful crop to grow. I also have an abundance of the brassica pests just waiting for me to try. I have the perfect climate for growing tomatoes with an early spring, long summer, and an autumn climate slowly receding into winter. The only problem I have is a killer mid summer heat which puts my entire garden into a heat induced stupor or kills it. The summer heat/intense sunlight can be accommodated if I wanted to utilize shade cloths over the veggies.

I think you are fortunate to have a garden which can utilize plants requiring full sun, partial sun, or even low sun under the trees. I don't worry much about what others say about mulch in my garden (I don't use it), rocks in my garden, or anything else. I just do my thing and hope for the best. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Ted

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rainbowgardener
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Ozark Lady wrote: You know the one thing that I just don't get?
So many gardeners will say... no shade on your garden at all, all day full sun. I can't do that, nothing will survive. And I just don't get it, I just can't connect the dots... is that only at certain elevations? is that with real garden soil? I can see that the north gets long days, but they get less intensity of sun, but folks about the same on the north south scale some need alot of sun, and some do better with less. Why?
Is it elevation? I have some plants in full sun, I water them daily, I feed them, I do all I can for them, and they are dying. I have plants in 8 hours of sun, and they are prospering, with less watering, less feeding, why? and I have some plants, that I got too close to the peach tree, they are growing and fairly healthy, but not fruiting so great, with that amount of shade. The peach limbs are drooping under the weight of the fruit, otherwise they wouldn't be shading those plants.

Also I hear, plow that dirt, get it ready to receive water, water can't enter hard crusted soil. But, unless you are going to water it immediately, doesn't breaking up the soil, cause faster moisture loss? I just don't get it. Then you have no till... how does the water get through that hard crust? And a lady told me, (she was standing in my garden) get rid of that mulch, it is preventing water from getting to the plants. Another visitor said: You see those rocks? Don't you know plants can't grow in rocks? Get that dug and get those rocks outta there.

Sheesh!
Well, all gardening is local, so we all have to figure out what works in our local climates/ soils, etc, not to mention micro-climates in different parts of our property. But about the full sun: As I think gixx pointed out recently, when they say full sun in instructions for a plant, that is specified to mean 6-8 hrs. If you have something sitting in blazing sun 12 or more hours a day, that is full sun +. Some things can handle full sun + and some can't. And of course it varies by the year. This year being so super hot and sunny for us day after day, some plants in my garden were glad to have some shade, that usually wouldn't like it.

The idea of no-till is that you are mulching heavily. which not only helps prevent water loss, but helps keep the soil under the mulch from crusting over. I don't think mulch prevents water from getting to the plants, but you do want to leave a little space around the plant that is mulch free, to help with that, as well as disease prevention and water being held right against the plant. But assuming your mulch is something like leaves or wood chips, not a solid sheet, water will work its way through and will get transferred from wet mulch to soil underneath. It may mean that your soil won't benefit as much from a light sprinkle as it would have, but a good rain will get through just fine.

But of course I hope it's always understood, that unless I'm quoting/ referencing someone else all I can give is my humble opinion. Lots of this is controversial and there's not ONE TRUE WAY.

specgrade
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Tell us what forum it was and we'll handle the rest. :evil: :twisted:

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Ozark Lady
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I was giving examples of all the "good advice" folks throw around.
Like the 7 year old who just learned a new thing.

I do remove the rocks, and I put them in the paths and between beds to suppress a few weeds. But it would be a 24/7 job to get them all out of there, and more work to the surface all the time. She was looking at a bed that had just been cleared to amend and start over.

I don't mulch too close to plants, I want airflow at the stem, and the mulch to keep the roots in moist soil... but my chickens think mulch is great to scratch aside and get a cool spot to dust in. I have to fix the mulch regularly. But, if I ban the chickens from access to the garden, I have more pest issues.

I also get odd looks for the dishes of water sitting in the beds for the frogs, hey they are my allies in this battle, but I also have to make hiding places for them, since chickens eat them, but by day the frogs hide and the chickens prowl and by night, the frogs go for it.

tedln
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I understand Ozark Lady. I think when I first started gardening, I tried to follow other folks advice. You need to realize that was before gardening forums existed. It was even before home computers existed. I suppose over the years, I have tried just about everything. I haven't tried peeing on my tomato plants yet. I may just be saving that for next year. Figure out what works for you and go for it.

Ted



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