nsmith07
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Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:09 pm
Location: Zone 6, Midwest

Food forest on 1/4 acre in NE Ohio

Hello,

My name is Nathan, I live on a 1/4 acre of suburban hardpan in zone 6 Northeast Ohio. My soil is mostly clay ph 6-7. I have about 2,000 square feet of space in my backyard that eventually I want to devote to a small foodforest. I am posting a picture of my current ideas and I wanted some feedback.

General info on the yard and area
1- Steep 4 foot tall incline on the southeast side becoming gentler at the southwest side. The top of this will hopefully have a hedge of some sort on it to enclose the back and side yards.
2- About 10 feet on the west side (towards sidewalk) has easements on it, so no big plants there.
3- Each square is 3 ft in the picture

Here is the picture, a Key is provided below it

[url=https://s1119.photobucket.com/albums/k624/nssmith07/?action=view&current=CurrentYardSketch2.jpg][img]https://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k624/nssmith07/th_CurrentYardSketch2.jpg[/img][/url]


KEY:
A- Aronia
B- Blueberries
Br- Brambles (erect blackberries)
C- Currant
GB- Gooseberries
HB- Honeyberry
JJ- Jujube
N- Nitrogen shrub (goumi, indigo, lupine, senna)
HBC- Highbush Cranberry
EY- Euonymous
Pw- Paw Paw
S- Perennial Sunflower
YH- Yellowhorn nut tree and shrubs

Groundcovers will include clovers, hopniss, hog nut, thyme, partridgeberry, wintergreen, spring beauty, strawberry, and lingonberry. Other flowers and plants will be mixed in as possible and as conditions change.

sorry this is so long, just had to get all of it out at once!

nsmith07
Newly Registered
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:09 pm
Location: Zone 6, Midwest

Also I have a few questions,

1- I want to push the limits and fit as much in as I can, but I am well aware that the sketch probably shows my overzealousness. Am I crazy for trying to fit 3 jujubes, 2 paw paws, 2 persimmon, and a yellowhorn into a few thousand square feet? I am ok with scaling down to two jujubes and a self fertile persimmon with the two pawpaws
2- How small can you keep a grafted persimmon and jujube, I have read as small as 10 feet, but I don't have experience growing them, just eating them!
3- If I get yates and Prok persimmon, will the prok fruit without an actual male tree? I saw hokkaido is a dwarf persimmon that is male and fruits, but wasn't sure what to do.


Thanks again!

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farmerlon
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Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:42 am
Location: middle Tennessee

Unfortunately, I don't have enough experience in that area to answer any of your questions.
But, I did want to say that I admire the planning and thought that you have put into the project... it looks like a great idea. :D

Persimmon is on my list, to add to my selection of fruit trees this year. I read that the Meador Persimmon is self-fertile.

Best of luck with your forest!

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!potatoes!
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Posts: 1938
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:13 pm
Location: wnc - zones 6/7 line

guess I didn't realize there were questions here...my two cents:

1) you might be able to get away with that tight a spacing, but it will require a lot more work. the extra competition will make things you want to keep small reach for light more, which will require more pruning to keep things small. consider planting 2 or 3 of the same thing VERY close together, that way you can cut out an entire plant as things fill in, and still have some.
2) jujube can be kept quite small, but the smaller, the less fruit...I've seen it kept trimmed to about 2 feet - tall and in diameter. grafted self-fertile american persimmon can be kept relatively small, too. a meader I know is currently about 7 feet tall, maybe three feet across.
3)I don't know the varieties yates or prok. or hokkaido, for that matter. from what I've seen, unless it's a very hardy cultivar, asian persimmons in general may struggle in your zone. they don't tend to like winter so cold.

also, your plan needs more perennial greens, in my humble opinion.

The Helpful Gardener
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Posts: 7491
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: Colchester, CT

The Japanese keep tight gardening space by digging a trench around the dripline, pruning and piling the trimmings into the trench, stomping it in good and recovering. Root pruning and top pruning at the same time. The name escapes me but perhaps Yama can be found in the Japanese Gardening Forum to remember for me... getting old is hard... :roll:

Still paw paws only six feet around? Nuh uh, my friend. Twice that minimally, and more like twenty. You need to go back and review actual MATURE sizes and go from there. This garden will be completely overgrown in no time.

That said I like the concept and think you are headed in the right direction. I would look for more perennial and vining type crops that would work with all the trees and shrubs you have chosen and maybe pare the latter down a bit. I like the keyholes on the wet hillside and wonder why so much open space when you obviously want so many food plants?

Eat your lawn! :lol:

All in all I like it Nate, but let's take a more serious look at the plants eventual sizes; everyone, including you, will be happier if you do...

HG

P.S. Enpi! The Japanese call the spading and trimming thing enpi. Just remembered... :roll: :wink:

nsmith07
Newly Registered
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:09 pm
Location: Zone 6, Midwest

Well said friends!

I know I am somewhat delusional about size aspects, I was hoping to use some judicious pruning, but time and willingness would probably end that pretty soon. I do know a jujube can be over 20 feet wide, and a paw paw to about the same, but a few experienced nurserymen had explained and shown me some trees they kept small so I got my hopes up!

I will submit a more realistic version soon and hopefully I can improve on the feasibility of all this. Thanks again for the comments, stay tuned for a new version soon!

PreserveFlowers
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:52 pm
Location: Kansas

Would love to see some one year pictures of your project. How did it go?

bangstrom
Senior Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:08 am

I doubt that you can have much luck with Asian persimmons and jujubes so far north. Jujubes can take cold but I think of them as almost a desert tree and I don't think they can survive wet and cold together. I would also plant two genetically different pawpaws side by side for better pollination. Pawpaws aren't pollinated by bees so proper pollination is difficult over even a short distance. If they are too close and not pruned, the canopies will merge and you may not like the look but, other than that, I don't see a problem with crowding. I hope the mulberries are dwarf varieties. Standard mulberries grow to be enormous. Most people consider the fruit to be too bland and seedy to bother picking more than a few and even the birds couldn't clean up two trees worth of fruit.



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