Three sisters gardening substitutes

[rsolis251]

Hey i was just reading up about the three sisters system of gardening that native americans used. Corn, Squash to cover the ground prevent weeds and retain moisture, and Beans to climb the corn and fix nitrogen in the soil. Makes alot of sense to me. although im not a big fan of squash, and i was wondering what plants could possibly be substituted for any of the three sisters which wud still work properly in the system?

Im guessing squash could be substituted by pumpkin? what else? any ideaS?

[thanrose]

Melons and cucumbers, perhaps? They are Cucurbits as are squash including pumpkins. Stuff like chayote, melons and cukes do better trellised, though.

What dense greens could you grow? Swiss chard and collards come to mind, but collards would probably do better in the islands.

Probably dasheen and yuca, those arrowhead leaved root crops? Lots of other local names. Malanga for instance. Check genus/species names Colocasia esculenta and Xanthosoma sagittifolium to see what I mean. By the time you would want to harvest them, the corn would have been harvested. For that same purpose, sweet potatoes and yams would work, but they both really sprawl.

[rsolis251]

Melons and cucumbers, perhaps? They are Cucurbits as are squash including pumpkins. Stuff like chayote, melons and cukes do better trellised, though.

What dense greens could you grow? Swiss chard and collards come to mind, but collards would probably do better in the islands.

Probably dasheen and yuca, those arrowhead leaved root crops? Lots of other local names. Malanga for instance. Check genus/species names Colocasia esculenta and Xanthosoma sagittifolium to see what I mean. By the time you would want to harvest them, the corn would have been harvested. For that same purpose, sweet potatoes and yams would work, but they both really sprawl.

Do sweet potatoes climb or spread out? i mean, can it substitute the beans? or the squash? I was planning on growing sweet potatoes either way so it wud be great if i cud incorporate em.

[applestar]

Sweet potatoes sprawl. I tried growing them with corn. They tended to seek out the hilled loose soil along the corn row on the sunny path side and tended to follow the corn roots down. Can't sub for beans since beans fix nitrogen in the soil. You could sub with other legumes or clover.

Cucumbers try to climb the corn and more vigorous pole bean variety grown with less statuesque corn variety will pull the corn down. Pumpkins will also try to climb the corn if you are not vigilant. if you plant later maturing winter squash and earlier corn then you can cut down the corn stalks after harvesting for more space and light... Unless you have beans growing on them. if you want do this then you could plant bush beans and be done with them earlier.... Or you could plant summer squash which will be done earlier and use the corn stalks to grow pole beans until frost....

It all requires a bit of research and planning. Varietal differences in growth habits and days to maturity and harvest will be major factors.

Also, don't forget about the roles of the unnamed fourth and fifth sisters -- flowering plants like sunflowers, cleome, or asclepias for attracting bees and deep rooted edible "weeds" like lambs quarters, amaranth, or purslane.

[rsolis251]

So, i shouldnt grow the sweet potatoes with the corn then? whatcha mean they followed the roots down? is that very undesirable? please excuse by newbieness ha.

fourth and fifth sisters? Didnt even know about that, do you know where i can get sum more in depth info?

[Mudflap]

I've done potatoes, beans and onions in the same bed. Always add some flowers too-for beneficial insects. Made raised beds out of cinder blocks. But any polyculture could work if use use different layers of soil. Say a root, with a surface grower, and an above ground producer. (think carrot, onion, tomatoes- beets, cabbage, bush beans-etc)

[applestar]

Interesting combinations.

The key here, again, is to pay attention to when they mature. Onions and beans need to be harvested before the potatoes are dug, for example.

I missed following up on this thread.

I know I've mentioned the cleome and sunflowers before, and pretty sure I included a link to an article about the native cleome used in Native American three sisters scheme. There is a link to an excellent online book about weeds (i.e. lambsquarters and pursley=purslane as well as amaranth/pigweed) that has been posted several times. We've had some extensive discussions about it as well, and HG has been experimenting in his garden.

I'll dig up those links when I can, but if someone else has them handy, please do post them again.

[soil]

amaranth works pretty good in place of corn.

[applestar]

in *PLACE OF* corn! Interesting idea!

Now how do you harvest amaranth seeds? Is it difficult?
I think I bought amaranth seeds for this year.... rustle rustle, grunt...

Ah ha! OK, I guess I'm smarter than I thought because I had put them in with the corn. Golden Amaranth and Mayo Indian Amaranth.

[soil]

Now how do you harvest amaranth seeds? Is it difficult?
I think I bought amaranth seeds for this year.... rustle rustle, grunt...

easy. simply when the flower heads are starting to mature, check the seeds daily, when they are getting ripe(not ripe because the birds will eat them). cut the plant at the base. then lay them out on a nice big sheet with contrasting colors to the seed( black for tan seeds and white for black, not a must but helps imo) then let the plants dry well. once they are dry lightly hit them with a small stick all over. repeat to each plant and place onto another sheet to catch the stubborn ones later. now you have a sheet full of seeds to winnow however you want.

[!potatoes!]

^ the winnowing's the trickiest part, though, got any ideas for that? in my experience the tiny seed is light enough that it doesn't separate well from the chaff.

still got a few...must be 8 year old bags of un- or imcompletely-winnowed amaranth somewhere.

I'm going to be kicking myself later this year, though, on that front: trying teff this year for the first time.

[soil]

well to be honest i haven't really had a problem, im getting pretty good at winnowing as i do it a lot. i also have good tools for the job. which are various sized baskets, all low and wide. tight weaves and loose for sifting as well, and ranging in sizes from 8"-36". i use the really big one for amaranth and tiny grains.

[applestar]

So glad potatoes pursued tjhis question!

I think that's part of my problem. I have a tiny basket about 6" diameter in shape of a shallow soup bowl, I suppose, that is more of a decorative souvenir item. But the tight weave, solid bamboo rim, etc. Makes me think it would be ideal as a winnowing basket if I can only find them in bigger sizes.

[soil]

the tiny ones are still good, they have there uses. each seed requires a different basket.

i know what you mean about hard to find. in asia there everywhere. but i cant even find a good picture online to show you what mine look like. let alone where to buy some. i got lucky at a yard sale that these old Japanese people were running. they had 10 baskets of all diameters so i got them all. at a score of 15$ too.

i really wish i could find a place to buy more though, i use them for a lot of other things too.

edit: i found a photo of one similar to those i have. some have tighter weaves, some have no gaps, and they range in size of course.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l2z68 ... o1_500.jpg

edit edit: and some better ones finally

http://caroledevillers.files.wordpress. ... nowing.gif
http://www.vermontsoap.com/images/shea/shea3.jpg

[applestar]

I'll take the one with the pug in it, please.

[Ozark Lady]

Corn does not grow well for me.

So, I considered using tobacco as the tall crop. Problem is: if the beans climb the tobacco stalk, it could make harvesting the leaves difficult, since they normally are harvested from the bottom up.

Maybe wait until the bottom leaves are removed, then plant the beans? Or simply use bush beans? Then add a vine around them both?

I know that tobacco grows well here, not sure about sorghum, but considering trying it as the tall crop too.