I want to talk about HAY as in Ruth Stout

[applestar]

Some of the plants are wilting Some worse than others. The big mystery volunteer tom in the back is the only one completely unaffected (It was the only one planted from a 1 gal pot. It's at the lowest point in this sloping bed.)

Too much water? Not enough? Too hot? Cooking in the root zone?

It was cloudy with some threat of rain most of the day yesterday, then overnight temp plummetted to 50's. There was actually dew this morning (haven't had a dewy morning for nearly a week), and some of the plants had recovered some (peppers especially).

I HAD to water today -- we're in the middle of a drought and every thing needed a good soaking. Some of the plants remain better. I think one tom is a goner. Yellow Bell and Bell Star are the worst affected.

[rainbowgardener]

"Too much water? Not enough? Too hot? Cooking in the root zone? "

I don't think we have any way to answer those questions, but you do. If it were me, I would try digging down into the root zone on one of the badly affected ones and see what's going on down there. Is it damp and mushy or dry or hot or ??

[The Helpful Gardener]

In my hay bale gardens only one potato survived out of the ones planted directly in bales; the rest are completely disintegrated, and the temps still there suggest cooking may have been the cause...

In the center where I filled with compost, the crops closest to the bales are head and shoulders ahead of the ones in the middle, furthest from the hay. This suggests two things, that increased heat may have helped root development, or that the increased ciliate population of hay in combination with the high bacterial population, released massive amounts of nitrogen. I am leaning towards the latter as the one plant not showing this differential has been the runner beans, which are the same size throughout the bed... that suggests to me that the ability to fix atmospheric nitrogen maintains the equal sizing...

Watering in your situation accomplishes two things, both moisture and cooling, and it would be hard to overwater that bed, I think. Water more and see if it doesn't help, but it would be hard to say with which issue...

A soil thermometer would be a big help, even a meat thermometer like you use on a turkey would help... there is certainly some composting still going on in this method and the heat can be more than one might think...

I added extra fertiliizer to the middle plants; Bradfield 5-5-5 Tasty Vegetable (yes, organic); we'll see if they catch up...

HG

[applestar]

Interesting about the heat issue. I guess we're both finding out some caveats about this method. Soil thermometer? Oh I have one of those, but it's in the completely DIAGONALLY opposite corner of my garden in the compost pile, and is way too far to go and get.

We had a good soaking rain (FINALLY!) this afternoon, and we're getting a cold spell (overnight air temp went down to 51ºF, 60's during the day today) Most of the plants appear to have recovered. I lost one tomato plant (Valencia which is too bad because I only have one other) and an Alaska Nasturtium. Cubanelle Banana Pepper might not make it. A Bellstar tomato is looking limp but may yet recover, and the rest of the Bellstars and Yellowbells, as well as the other Alaska and a parsley are still looking slightly hangdog.

I don't know if it's actually the cool weather/rain that's helping or that the bed has had the chance to mellow a bit. I think I said earlier or elsewhere that, normally, I would allow at least 2 weeks for a sheet mulched bed to settle in before planting.

I'm wondering if you planted the potatoes WAY ahead of the normal schedule, while it's still really too cold under normal circumstances, they might make it. You would then have EARLY potato harvest out of the haybale raised bed.

[Ozark Lady]

Let's talk hay!
I got several old bales down today, to mulch, the garden soil is already cement. Some one or other is hogging all the rain!
My hubby insists that we got 30 minutes of steady rain this morning before I got up, well, you can't prove it by my soil!

Anyhow, I did get alot of things mulched, but OMG I am itching.
Does everyone itch like crazy from putting out hay?
I did my sneezing and watery eyes thing too!
Allergies and hay don't seem to get along so great!
Once it is down, I do fine with it, but the breaking bales and placing it, just really gets me all itchy! You get the stuff off, but all the tiny scratches still itch! Sheesh.

Mulching is up close and personal, I was eyeball to eyeball with several cutworms today. Bt to the rescue... and now, now that I sprayed, it looks like rain! Going to wash all my Bt off.

[The Helpful Gardener]

A little bit OL, but I used some skunked stuff which seems not to hit me as hard...

Sorry to hear about cutworms but don't worry about BT washing; bacteria stick like glue (actually make their own in the form of polysaccharides).

Pertty darn hard to wash away...

HG

[applestar]

Some details on EH's Synergistic Garden are described here and other pages on the same website.

[rainbowgardener]

great link, AS!

[applestar]

I took the time to reread this whole thread since I just recommended it elsewhere and had a thought about OL's hyper-fungal naturally leaf mulched beds.

You know those chickenwired hoops you use to keep the chickens out, OL? After a bed is done growing stuff and you've cut-- not uprooted -- the plants and laid them on top of the mulch, how about using them to keep some chickens IN for a week or so to scrabble around, eat any bugs and their eggs, larvae, or pupae, and leave their blessings... They would likely shred up the leaves in the process (you don't need a mechanical leaf shredder ) Feed them and water them in there as necessary: Chicken tractor. Then let that bed compost away for a month or two. This way you've added the necessary N and bacteria to offset the high C/fungal.

Just had another thought that if you confine your goats in a smallish paddock full of leaves for however long is appropriate every day, they might eat and trample the leaves as well as leave their "processed" blessings there as well. Not sure if this is a viable idea without goat experience of my own, but I thought I'd toss it in.

You've got most of the animal components/members of a permaculture --What's the right word? ... Homestead? Farm? -- It's just a matter of putting them to work.

[Ozark Lady]

I began the original garden with chicken tractors.

I took horse fencing, and built cages that fit what I wanted for a bed, and it was 4' high. We then used the landscape timbers to secure the bottom of the wire boxes.

I removed all surface rocks, then we placed chickens in there. These were young ones, so I knew the manure wouldn't be wonderful.
You folks do know the age of the animal affects the quality of the manure.
You can't count on baby animal manures to do much more than add humus, since they use up most of the nutrients in their food.

I left them there, food and water offered as usual, and I had to cover half the roof, due to heat issues. The trees were still pretty small back then and not alot of shade. That was 15 years ago, so imagine how much smaller they were.

Instead of moving the tractors, I kept building more, allegedly they were suppose to deposit "gifts" on a thin layer of hay and then I was to lasagna it and on and on. I moved the chicks, not the tractors from one bed to the next.
1. Baby or young chickens don't do alot of scratching.
2. They did do good at eating the weeds.
3. They didn't really place enough manure to amount to anything.
4. I did keep adding hay, but it just never did build up into the lasagna mat that was shown in the book "Chicken Tractors".

It was basically a bust. The chickens were great lawn mowers, weed eaters, and that is about it.

But that is a great reminder, I have alot of something ( I have tried to id it, it is a nettle, a basil, or a mint that family somewhere) and it is out of control. If I pen the young chickens there, they will definitely clear that out for me. Goats won't eat it. And since I have 16 baby chicks and more that I need to go get. I have enough to get a couple tractors up and going. Then I can pen the baby ducks there after weed removal, and let them have a slug-fest.

All of my chicken wire garden cages are up at the bag garden at the moment. The beauty of them is they are sections, so I can re-arrange and make them to fit a 4' bed or a row of bags! Some are 3' widths and some are 2' widths. They aren't overly secure without the timbers of the raised beds, but they encourage animals to stay out of there! I had chickens digging up the plants, and dogs digging in the soft dirt to lie there. And no... I did not let sleeping dogs lie... she is over 100 pounds, not good lying on my bag garden!

Here they are at 2 weeks planted:


The original garden, once the plants are larger, and well mulched, with hay, I simply remove them and let the chickens help with bugs.

The forest garden is doing great, I did add some bone meal, wood ashes, cottonseed meal, and fish emulsion to half of them. But, growth wise, I can't tell any difference. They are doing fine!
Here is the forest plants at 3 weeks:



So far, I am well pleased with both the forest and bag experiments. The bags are filled with topsoil, amended with aged manure. I do plan to mulch both with hay to keep the weeds down, but, I am waiting till the plants are larger to survive the slugs, for now mulch is a bad thing for them.

[applestar]

Ah, I knew ducks should go in that scheme somewhere but I couldn't figure out exactly how.

I still need to make those cages. I have the 24" wide chickenwire, but have to go get the tubing. Remind me again what they are specifically so I can ask for it when I go to the big box store? Do you buy them in lengths or as coiled up tubing?

[Ozark Lady]

That was getting long, so I decided to tackle the goat issue in a new post.

I have discovered that copper is lacking in the soil here. Sheep are very good at processing copper and you must be careful not to overdose them, however, goats are not. So, you must supplement them with copper.

I have been doing some reading on the mineral deficiencies in the local soil, and looking into amending the soil with copper to help the plants as well as the animals. I have discovered a very accurate indicator of copper deficiency is alkaline soil, and sulfur water... we have both here. The only thing keeping my soil at neutral to slightly acid is the leaves.

From a goat health viewpoint: I do not want my animals to eat anything off of the ground! Worms and coccidi are parasites, and once they are passed in feces, they do their life cycle, some in snails, and then they are in the lower 2 inches of weeds, and when an animal eats there, they are ingested.

Therefore, I want to keep my goats eating above the first 6 inches. Leaves that have hit the ground could be contaminated. I can't keep poultry above that 6 inch mark, so I just have to plan on dealing with their parasites, in as organic a way as possible. Diatomaceous earth to the rescue, inside and outside the animal!

Also, my dairy goats are big pets, they are well trained, but they weigh as much as I do, and walking them on a leash just isn't a reasonable option for me. In order to have mobile goats that I can move to one area or another, I need pygmies! But, even pygmies are strong little rascals for their 50 pound weights, and can be a handful to lead, when they want to go elsewhere. It is much less effort to simply cut brush and take it to the goats hay rack and feed them up high, than to try moving the goats to an area.

I am also reading: http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Herbal-H ... 0571161162

I had the old version of this book, but it burned in the fire. But, the hedgerow chapters talk about the good herbs for the goats hedgerow.
And that is in the preview to the book! Yeah!

Makes sense, if I can amend the soil, get the mineral deficiencies worked out, plant a decent hedgerow of herbs, and get the animals health at the top of the ladder... the manure from them, will then have everything that I need in my garden? Well, that is my theory at least.

So, I am researching these areas, if anyone has additional information on these, please share.

I am not attempting the fungal issues until I get the minerals, and the balance of ph, npk, etc worked out with alot of humus to stop this turning to cement thing! One step at a time.

Leaves are buried in the compost bin, under that lousy first load of topsoil, so they are out of harms way, and since I can't get to them, I am using hay for mulch. But, I am planting herbs for hedgerow, with the idea, of harvesting the whole plant come fall, both for goat feed, and to use along with hay and leaves to balance my garden.

So, I need to find the herbs that contain the most copper, naturally and are not dependant on finding it in the soil!

Scott, would herbs, since they are organic, and less woody than leaves still have your amoebas and stuff?

[Ozark Lady]

Apple, I find the flexible 1/2" pvc in the area where they have the parts to make your own drip system at Lowes.

It is a coil of about 50' length? Costs about $20.00. I also get rigid pvc in 3/4" size, and cut it to 12", these I drive into the ground, and then just slide the 1/2" into them, when I want to anchor the bed. I couldn't do that at the bag garden. The rigid is not necessary, but it makes it more stable. The sides of the raised bed keeps the shape, notice the sprawl at the bag garden where there are no legs, and no boards to hold them in place.

I used chicken wire scraps and pvc, to make a trellis for my peas to climb, it worked great! I do have photos of the peas, but they are not reduced in size and loaded on Photo Bucket at this time.

[applestar]

Thanks Ozark Lady!

To return the favor -- as chance would have it, I was flipping through How to Grow More Vegetables and on p.24 Ch. 2. Sustainability, there is an entry [my emphasis in red]:

Sunflowers (sunflower seeds are very high in fat; maximum to avoid copper toxicity = 0.62 pound per day)

For what it's worth.

[Ozark Lady]

I feed the goats Black Oil Sunflower Seeds on a daily basis. Along with oats, corn, alfalfa pellets, and other grains, and pellets.

They are milking just about a gallon per day, per goat, so I needed to keep their nutrition high, and knew the BOSS would do that. I wasn't aware of the copper link to them though.

Thanks, you know, I should grow my own, and quit buying them, they are about 18.00 per 50 pound bag. Another hedgerow plant! Yeah!

I wonder if all sunflowers are created equal? I have some corn that is high protein stalks. Hmmm?

I really need a microscope, to determine what has amoeba's etc growing on them!

[The Helpful Gardener]

Amoebas are a hard find in a regular 'scope without staining. I had to spend a Saturday with Paul Wagner (SFW New York, or was back then) to leanr how and I still have a hard time...

GREAT link to the EH article, AS; just famous stuff. WHo knew EH was influenced by Ruth? Not me!

And between you and OL kicking it back and forth I have just had some fine education...

This is the stuff I always thought possible and always wanted to see here at THG; it has been a long time coming but we are creating a new reality in gardening through these discussions. I couldn't be more pleased and proud to be associated with gardeners of this calibre and mindset, and I thank my stars you all settled here on a daily basis...



HG

[applestar]

Check this out. It's a Dynamic accumulator list.

I initially found this list at a different website, but it was unattributed and I couldn't tell if it was an original list created by the OP. Well, this one appears to be the original, dated 11.5 years prior to the other one. Obviously ideas and information like this has been kicked around the block a few times, and they're coming back around our corner

ETA: ... and guess what? Only one on this list that accumulates copper is... drum roll please... DANDELION!!

PPS (well you know what I mean): Not ignoring your joyfulness HG. Just was too singlemindedly excited about finding a legit list to post. I like it here too, and I love being able to intelligently discuss my wacky ideas, that are apparently not so wacky after all.

[The Helpful Gardener]

THAT's what I'm talking about, AS. What once was lost now is found, what once was nuts now is knowledge...

I want to talk about hay as well; the corn in my bale gardens is telling me the hay thing is totally righteous. The corn next to the bales is a foot taller than the corn in the middle of the bale bed where it isn't next to the hay.

A FOOT TALLER! Cilliates eating bacteria munching high nitrogen hay.

BOOM!



Wacky? Or wonderful?

HG

[Ozark Lady]

Looks like I need to let the dandelions go to seed, with a seed bag over them, then go scatter those seeds all over the pasture!
Thanks Apple.

I couldn't find the link I was looking for. I came across a map, and you clicked on your state, then your county, and it told you... according to the university studies what the soil is normally deficient or rich in mineral-wise. I was going to post the link, so folks could see what their soil basically has, before they begin amending it.

Copper deficiency leads to many diseases in animals and humans.
If your soil is deficient, and you are not amending the copper, it could be that your wonderful vegetables would be deficient in them too.
Think of Tomato End Rot... calcium deficiency.

Some weeds will help in some of this, and hay might or might not have those weeds in it. I am researching herbs to add both to the mulch, and the pasture.

So much to learn! But, while we learn, we apply what we do know, and our food supply gets better with each new piece of the puzzle.

Many years ago, when we first started a garden in the forest, and I mean many years ago. We double dug the beds. Then we added a layer of leaves, a layer of rabbit manure, and then soil, and kept layering it. Well, the layers were too big, and we did this the same day we planted it. The plants took off, looked great. Then their roots left the soil area and hit the too rich area, yuck sick, then they hit the leaves, which tended to allow too much airflow and the plants were dry! How tight was your hay?
In a bale that is not opened, they are squeezed tight, and if you grow in it, you find it doesn't dry your plants, like hay that is loosely tossed into a cage would do. You want the hay fluffy when it is on top, to allow air in. But the hay should be tight when on bottom to limit airflow and hold water.

[applestar]

Latest photo:


Only ones that are not doing so well are Cubanell Banana pepper and nasturtiums. I think the pepper just doesn't like the heat. I'm going to dig him out and transplant him in the mid-day shade end of the Hot Pepper Bed. Anaheim and Aji Dulce are doing well though. I still have time to sow an edamame in his place, or I'll just sow some bush beans. I think airpockets/too fluffy hay is probably the issue for the nasturtiums like OL said, since they seem to manage OK in my clay-y soil elsewhere.

BTW, I just downloaded a game app for iPad called "Farm Story" for the kids. You have a market farm that you plant with various produce and sell. I was watching DD play -- she said, I'm harvesting strawberries now. Now I want to plant... oh, I have to "PLOW FIRST" "It won't let me plant until I plow, and it costs money to plow" Now WHO do I contact about incorporating no-till and preserving soil foodweb in the next upgrade!

[Ozark Lady]

That is odd Apple.
I usually just direct sow cubanelle peppers in the hottest part of my garden, and they will out perform any transplant that you plant!

But, the cubanelle do like my clay soil! And with little amending they grow well.

[hit or miss]

Keep up with posting the great info folks! You already have me totally changing the way I garden with these in-depth discussions. I've always been a fan of hay for mulch but have gotten away from it the last few years as, believe it or not, it's really hard to come by here in Kansas. Every farmer has gone to large round bales or giant square bales, 1000 to 1800 pounds a whack.

We got a nice rain last night and this morning and I have been out pulling weeds to start a compost pile. I cut some seed heads from some brome grass I've been encouraging to grow and seeded some of the areas I tore up while pulling weeds. Sort of a "throw down some seeds and walk away" experiment. I'm going to wait for the seed heads to drop their seed where they're at and cut the grass to add to the compost.

Thanks again for all of the great knowledge here!

Scott

[The Helpful Gardener]

Scott glad to hear you are liking. And got rain. Send it on when you are done with it...

AS, gotta go with OL on this one. NEVER saw a pepper that didn't like heat. HAS to be someting else...

HG

[applestar]

I've posted update photos to this: http://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/v ... 211#139211

and here's the New Sauce Tomato Bed today . Very healthy with no sign of disease (knock on wood). Just that one yellow leaf that was apparently due to senescence:

[fannyfarmer]

Hay is good! Anyone who hasn't grown potatoes under books of hay hasn't lived right. I just throw the pieces on the open ground or grass or weeds and cover with a book of hay--that is as wide a chunk off a square bale as you can peel off with one hand. No weeds, few bugs, easy harvest......no digging!

The greener the hay....the more nitrogen. Alfalfa hay has lots of legume tops and will feed and mulch. Green (chem-free) grass is very high in nitrogen, while corn stalk and straw bales eat up nitrogen, but provide good structure for compost (which is what Ms Stout did right in the rows. What a woman!) Therefore, a combination of these is the quintessential way to go.........

[lily51]

Some info on hay to respond to some comments.

Alfalfa hay is fed to all sorts of livestock, not just horses.

Hay is nutriional; straw is the stalks left over from wheat harvest. It is for bedding and is not for nutrition. There are many types of "hay"..even grasses cut and baled are hay.

Hay baled at the correct moisture content (very low) and dried properly can last a long time as long as it does not get wet in some way. If hay is cut and allowed to get wet in the field, it is ruined.
Hay bales that are stored in a loft wet create their own heat, self-combusting and creating barn fires. That's why "tunnels" are left in the stacks for fans if needed.
For this reason, if I was building a structure, straw would be my choice, not hay.

And by the way, "hayrides" are really "strawrides".

[Ozark Lady]

Alfalfa hay is a rich source of calcium, and alfalfa is a deeply rooted plant, the roots can go 25 feet, so it really brings up the minerals and is a wonderful feed for animals.

I feed it on the milking stand, and then, I pick up the wastes off of the floor and soak it to feed...alfalfa tea to plants, particularly ones that might need calcium.

In another forum, a gentleman posted that he buys alfalfa pellets at a feed store and uses these to make manure tea for his garden.

[applestar]

Alfalfa pellets tea -- I do that too. It seems pellets are the easier way to find alfalfa around here. Not very expensive either. In fact I have better luck finding alfalfa pellets than alfalfa meal (I used to look for this as possible organic fertilizer), and very hard time finding alfalfa hay.

[Ozark Lady]

I have both hay and pellets. The pellets are mixed into their food.
And the dust at the bottom of the bag, is made into tea, and the dust in the bottom of the feed bin is too.

Actually, I have alfalfa tea, brewing in the garden right now, and two containers of manure tea.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Alfalfa is VERY high in nitrogen, more so than other grasses and grains...

HG

[WildeHilde]

There is a farm in Santa Cruz Co. called Molino Creek that sells dry-farmed tomatoes which are the best I have ever bought in a store...I think the timing, climate and soil type are crucial when trying a no watering method... variety's too must play a huge part in success I too part ways with ruth on that aspect of her style of gardening .. but I know it saves a ton during the high hot season. We bake in Oregon and it is bone dry!
The guys at that farm say the're plants roots go down over 15ft where it's cool and moist and they mulch very deep with grown out cover crops.
Reminds me I want those seeds!

[Joyfirst]

That reminds me, that yaer when we used alfalfa hay to mulch and horse manure, our tomatoes were tall and gave so many fruits we didn't know what to do with them...I thought it was horse manure, but now, I think it was alfalfa too. The only reason we bought alfalfa that year was because straw was not in the store, when we went, and it is pretty far. Hmmm, then alfalfa is the best as a mulch in terms of fertilizing?

[WildeHilde]

A friend told me he puts alfalfa feed pellets in his holes when planting...hmmm says skip the rabbit just use the feed pettets lolin response to me getting rabbits for poo..funny advice i thought and prob a good idea too!

[Joyfirst]

It seems to be so, but bunnies are so cute!

[CTx]

Th oddest thing I've ever seen -
I put down 4"-6" of hay over part of the garden earlier this summer (early May). In the drought we're in, it's normal to see cracks in the soil where I live (much clay, black gumbo).
There is decomposition occurring under the hay AND CRACKS!!! It seems like I've lost a lot of subsoil moisture but the hay has managed to keep some of it in (at least at the point the soil contacts the hay). There is considerable decomposition occurring there. Perhaps I should water heavily to help the decomposition???
I'm considering Vetch next year. It's more work but it adds nitrogen to the soil and is much cheaper than hay. If the vetch grows thick enough there should be comparable moisture savings.
On second thought, maybe a hay/vetch combo? Grow vetch for nitrogen/moisture and follow up with an overlay of hay to reduce moisture loss.
Have to see how the vermin respond to the additional habitat this fall/winter. Owls are not something I want with small dogs...

[The Helpful Gardener]

Ah, yes alfalfa pellets, decomposing hay, all the same thing really...

When we break down greens we add nitrogen. Nitrogen is bacterial food, and bacteria add sticky humus and more nitrogen to the soil. Shade and moisture allow for habitat (hot and dry don't).

I bet bunnies add a few good things in the biological mix, and they are cute.But they use some of the nitrogen in the alfalfa ( which is very high as far as organic goes)...

Adding fungal side is harder, but builds soils faster. Try shredded paper under your hay, maybe a layer of leaf mold in between (there are SOME trees in Central Texas, right? ) And vetch DOES add nitrogen; but getting rid of it later might be tough. I'd compost unless you are talking about acreage...

HG

[CTx]

"there are SOME trees in Central Texas, right?"

Yeah, we have trees but it's so dry that yesterday I saw 2 of them chasing a dog down the street.

[Leolady]

And I have to say I just HAD to bring up this one. I am a great admirer of Ms. Stout and have been mulching for many years.

Using the Stout method I have had many successful gardens, including the one I have now.

Yes, I have gone over to raised beds, and I have used alfalfa pellets and manure, but I ALWAYS mulch heavily with leaves, grass clippings, and hay or straw. I do not till the mulch in EVER.

I have never been disappointed in my gardens, and they are a heck of a lot less work than my dad's gardens ever were. I love Ruth!

[rainbowgardener]

I just ran in to this thread (because applestar recently linked to it) and just HAD to bump it. It hasn't been touched for three years and I'm sure a lot of newer people here have never seen it. It is a great discussion of various no-till methods, with a ton of good information from Ozark Lady who is living the homestead life and has personal experience of all this.

It has a whole bunch of good links, to Ruth Stout videos, Emilia Hazelip videos, a TED talk by Jamie Oliver, info about biochar, info on dynamic accumulators, etc.

This thread is a whole education on organic no-till gardening all by itself! Enjoy, everyone!

[estorms]

I mulch with grass clippings in the summer and with hay in the winter. In the winter I put it on the rhubarb, asparagus, strawberries, and the current and azalea bushes. I have a lot of weeds whether or not I mulch with hay. All part of gardening.