Roundup intervention

[Toil]

Hey guys, my father threw me for a loop today. I had been fighting him on tilling his lawn to start a new one. Bit now he tells me he will first spray the whole thing with roundup to kill the old grass.

He didn't buy the alzheimers link, and he worked for a monsanto type company his whole life. So what I say has to be solid.

Any ideas? I know this is not the turf section but something tells me the answer is here. [/code]

[webmaster]

How large is his lawn?

[rainbowgardener]

To start with you might try typing Roundup into the Search the Forum feature, maybe with The Helpful Gardener as author to narrow it down some. There's been a lot of discussion of this question here already.

Here's a couple links that THG had posted.

https://www.ppdl.purdue.edu/PPDL/weeklypics/5-15-06.html

https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/07/08/DDO218FLRL.DTL&type=homeandgarden

[Toil]

ah thanks.

I was visiting, and only had my iPhone. His plan really upset me. I could let it go when he used it to take down poison ivy by filling a little vial and putting the main stem directly in it. I bite my tongue when they use it to weed a walkway. But spraying the whole lawn to start over was too much!

the lawn is not huge, just the front lawn of a suburban house. He says the soil isn't soil, just hard compacted construction debris. maybe 300-500 square feet?

Perhaps this is an opportunity for him to find a new and better way to do things and avoid being harangued by his son on every visit.

[applestar]

If he's planning to kill all the vegetation anyway, couldn't he solarlize or even simply put a blue tarp over the area instead? Once dead, the existing turf can be used to add organic matter to the clay soil (without adding harmful chemicals). If you have a good supply of extended EM (I like EMA - it's easier to type! ) to spray at the time, even better! -- don't you think?

[Toil]

well, he wants to have it in this spring, so solarizing won't work. But the big tarp is an idea. work in sections perhaps? from there, he can do what he will.

I really thought I was convincing him not to till, but I think not using roundup is the first priority. I got my skepticism and stubbornness from him, so this won't be easy.

applestar, this is burlington county, NJ. He plans on sowing it with kentucky blue I think. Any deeper rooted varieties you can think of that won't need so much nutrients in a concentrated layer? the dense look seems to be a goal. It will be very low traffic (almost none). He does irrigate with water from the rancocas creek, so this should be easy if I get him to try. Where that water is applied, moss grows. Alot. I take that to be a sign of health.

[applestar]

If he's close enough to irrigate from the creek, DEFINITELY lets get him away from using Roundup all over and letting the stuff run off into the watershed!!

You're better off asking the grass variety question in the Lawn Forum (In fact, I can remember an extended discussion about grass variety selection involving HG and... hmmm I think a member named bestlawn a while back) I know next to nil about lawn grass -- my mission in life is to GET RID OF THEM ALL! I'm secretly working of a plan to replace our grass with Pennsylvania Sedge and Buffalo Grass (shhh! Don't tell my DH! )

[Toil]

yeah, I had no luck convincing him that the best sun on his property was a waste if given to grass. Victory garden baby!

I did get my brother to commit to that, so whatever we do at my dad's place, minus the sowing, we will do at my bro's place.

[paul wheaton]

I have so much to say about this.

Odds are that your soil is more like dirt or cement. Tilling it will make it even more like dirt or cement and then you will try to grow babies there where the adults were struggling.

Also, odds are that your dad mows too short.

Since this is the permaculture forum, I would like to make two important permaculture points regarding lawns:

1) A lawn can be a polyculture. Consider a mowed meadow full of flowers and edibles. My favorite part plating crocuses - they come up in the spring before the grass and are all done before the first mow.

2) A lot of permies try to replace all lawn with gardens. I would like to remind these folks that lawns are where we relax outdoors, where kids play, where we have yard sales, picnics and potlucks.

I think that with a little knowledge on the subject, all ideas of roundup and tilling are dropped.

BTW: chances are that the variety of grass in his yard right now is exactly the same thing he is thinking of planting. He thinks he is about to make a fresh start, but really, he is about to make things much worse.

Paul Wheaton

[gixxerific]

Like Apple said Next to a creek Roundup is NOT AN OPTION!!!!

There were many good ideas here's another although a very tedious option.
Turning all the grass over, sounds crazy for a whole yard but doable. Digging it like sod than flipping it. I'm pretty sure there is a machine you can rent that does this. Could be wrong though.

Just a thought

Oh yeah don't forget a truckload of compost/topsoil than seed away to your happy little heart.

[Toil]

He has yet to respond to my offer of help, I will give it time.

Free labour is a good bribe.


I agree not all lawn are useless but this one is. The back yard lawn is useful. He knows his plants (worked in the agro-chem industry). When I was a kid he would name all the trees and plants in the forest while I ignored him. Doh!

Guys like him are the hardest to "convert". The standard is very high. But it's not impossible. I figure bribery always works!

[Tater]

Get/ borrow a goat.(not sure if where you live will allow) The eat lower grasses down to the dirt and poop. I am not joking I use them to clear old climbing vine/beans just a thought tate

[Toil]

Lol. For real lol.

I would love to see a goat out front. But the city would fine him.


One of these days I will have pasture and animals to mow it. Then in winter I will eat the animals. Maybe switch it off with corn. Yum!

[Tater]

Sorry I live in the part of the world where everyone has an animal somewhere in their yard or in all of it...then we eat it

[cynthia_h]

There are folks on the West Coast and in the Intermountain West who rent out a small herd of goats, a sheep dog (often a Border Collie, but sometimes another breed), a portable fence for containment, and a goat-keeper by the job for brush or vegetation control. Sample business: Goats R Us at https://goatsrus.com/ There may also be such businesses elsewhere in the U.S., but the risk of wildfire is so great in the West that there's a much greater incentive for such methods of brush abatement.

It sounds as if five or so goats for one day or two would do the job for your father's lawn. The people at the Northfordy Farm (contact info on this page -- https://www.workingtheland.com/links_organic_nh.htm) may know where to find such "rent-a-goats" in your area.

You don't need to give the animal a home! No worries there!

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[Toil]

new tactic: gift giving!

I ordered "Organic Lawn Care" by Paul Tukey and had it sent to his house. He's going to read it, I hope, because it is a gift.

[gixxerific]

Great idea Toil, let's hope this works.

If not do what Cynthia said and send him some grazing goats, as a surprize of course, I can just see the look on his face now.

[Toil]

oh he would love the goats. I would come over to see how they did, and he would say "very tasty".

[The Helpful Gardener]

I very much like Paul's replies and have little to add to my other posts other than to note that the AMPA that is the primary breakdown ingredient of glyphosate appears to me to be also implicated in synaptic nerve response (if I understand the little of the white papers I actually get correctly). I would welcome confirmation or denial of this congruency in acronyms...

In the new light of what we know about endocrine disruption and links to Parkinsons and like syndromes, more care needs be taken than has to date with nervous health issues in these regards...

HG

[gixxerific]

Scott you need to come talk to my neighbor you can explain it much more eloquently than I can. His two fav yard tools are Roundup and Total Vegetation Killer.

[The Helpful Gardener]

No gixx, he doesn't know me from Adam. You, and everyone else needs to figure out what to say, person by person. I am still busy working on my neighbor...

HG

[gixxerific]

I hear ya. I'm a little worried this year. He is planning on putting in a veggie patch on the other side of my fence. That is a good spot for me, I was thinking about putting in a small patch there for overflow, mainly pumpkins. I need to talk to him and find out what he is going to A: plant there and B: what kind of death sprays he will be using if any before I commit to getting a bed ready. We are friends but you know people are stuck in their way's. I have had the talk with him many times and I think he is starting to listen. Hopefully we can work something out.

Back to the discussion at hand, Toil your go..............

[Toil]

Nothing to report but enjoying all the ideas.

[Toil]

HAH! I got a nibble!

He is eating up Paul's book, and now has a million questions.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Drag him here toil.

We have a plethora of info already, and can answer his questions as they arise...

Even Paul values my opinion...

HG

[gixxerific]

Score one for the good guy's. Way to go. Bring him in like HG said. It is now my mission to change peoples perspective of gardening since mine has been so drastically altered. Thinking about that this morning the "ex's" are the worst for trying to conform someone: Ex-smokers, Ex-drinkers, and especially Ex-wives. LOL

Just came from another forum talking up the benefits of weeds. They are going think I'm crazy, and maybe I am.

[cynthia_h]

Just because I refuse to use Roundup to get rid of my weeds doesn't mean that I want to keep the weeds as lesson-providers. As I discussed elsewhere....

And there is no one more zealous in his/her efforts at conversion than the True Believer (Eric Hoffer's term)--someone who has changed 180 degrees and now believes what he formerly opposed.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[gixxerific]

Just because I refuse to use Roundup to get rid of my weeds doesn't mean that I want to keep the weeds as lesson-providers. As I discussed elsewhere....

And there is no one more zealous in his/her efforts at conversion than the True Believer (Eric Hoffer's term)--someone who has changed 180 degrees and now believes what he formerly opposed.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

Not sure if that was a burn on me, I hope not. But I have ALWAYS been a naturalist and conservationist, I have just been reawakened with new thinking and have seen the error in SOME of my ways. I admit I took a vacation but it's time to get back to work now.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Just because I refuse to use Roundup to get rid of my weeds doesn't mean that I want to keep the weeds as lesson-providers. As I discussed elsewhere....

Cynthia, knowing of your appreciation for the work of Fukuoka-san, I am surprised by your abbhorance of weeds.

"Weeds play their part in building soil fertility and in balancing the biological community. As a fundamental principle, weeds should be controlled, not eliminated."

From the Third Principle of Natural Farming
The One Straw Revolution

Seems they might provide more than lessons...

And one more reason NOT to use Round-Up...

Gixx, you have hit upon the dangerous side of idealogical conversion; zealotry and enthusiasm on your part does not necessarily translate to the same in others. You are in possession of more information than they may be, and cannot yourself see how they cannot see, forgetting you were once as least that blind yourself, right? Believe that I get that

Bringing the gentle message, one that shows rather than tells, is often a more productive tactic than slapping down the soapbox and shouting "I have something to tell you!" Believe me bruddah; this I know well from the only way people really learn, experience...

Don't be less enthusiastic, just speak softer and make them not just hear, but discover...

And razzy emoticons might not be the best tactic either, but do as I say, not as I do...

HG

[gixxerific]

Point taken HG but I think I'm doing alright not shoving it down peoples throats but more leading the way. That's why you are here to keep me in check. I have taken you on as a private mentor. Don't worry you don't have to do anything extra just do what yo do.

[cynthia_h]

Gixx, it was more a response to your phrase "It is now my mission...." I wanted you to be aware that this phenomenon was identified by the American "longshoreman philosopher" Eric Hoffer, who coined the phrase "True Believer." The words "It is now my mission...." brought his name to mind.

Cynthia, knowing of your appreciation for the work of Fukuoka-san, I am surprised by your abbhorance of weeds.

"Weeds play their part in building soil fertility and in balancing the biological community. As a fundamental principle, weeds should be controlled, not eliminated."

From the Third Principle of Natural Farming
The One Straw Revolution

Seems they might provide more than lessons...

Oh, they do, all right. They do. They provide

1) toxins which cause Heinz-body anemia, fatal to dogs b/c it makes the blood too thick to circulate [wild onions],

2) burrs which torment my dogs' feet and legs [burclover],

3) stickers which can get into their toes and noses [redstem filaree],

4) foxtails (grass awns, look like wild oats on steroids) which have barbs and skin-weakening enzymes, so they can enter the skin and make their way to vital organs [foxtail], and

5) multiple other "benefits."

I haven't really waged a campaign of elimination vs. the mallow or oxalis b/c they don't threaten the dogs as far as I can tell; they're just annoying.

Which is why my specific sequence of weed extirpation was chosen: the most threatening weeds (remember: unwanted plant in unwanted location!) went first. And the bodies of these weeds--the non-seed-bearing parts--often go into the compost, so all the nutrients are not lost. But the dogs are outside with me when I work in the garden, and I don't want to worry about their safety with regard to the plants.

OTOH, the safety of all of us is threatened by the use of such products as Roundup, esp. in the hands of householders who don't read the label instructions and for whom "more is better." I live with one such, so these products cannot live here. I'm also a migraineur, and anything with VOCs in it is an instant migraine trigger. Another reason not to have such garden chemicals around.

Cynthia

[The Helpful Gardener]

A truly terrifying thought Gixx; the unsighted chaperoning the unable-to-see...

HG

[Toil]

Seems they might provide more than lessons...


Oh, they do, all right. They do. They provide

1) toxins which cause Heinz-body anemia, fatal to dogs b/c it makes the blood too thick to circulate [wild onions],

2) burrs which torment my dogs' feet and legs [burclover],

3) stickers which can get into their toes and noses [redstem filaree],

4) foxtails (grass awns, look like wild oats on steroids) which have barbs and skin-weakening enzymes, so they can enter the skin and make their way to vital organs [foxtail], and

5) multiple other "benefits."

1)you mean the same toxin found in all onions? Are we talking chihuahuas here? A dog has to eat lots of onion to get sick. A lot. We give leftovers with onion all the time. source: https://www.vetinfo.com/dtoxin.html

2)I agree that would be a nuisance and thus perfectly rational to eliminate. It's bad enough if they run off and come back with em.

3)again nobody suggested leaving truly nuisance plants.

4)again it's a danger no one suggests leaving that in your territory. Same goes with porcupines.

Do you uproot everything, or do some things get mowed? And what happens next?

I don't see all that much disagreement with what's been said in your posts. Just a different emphasis.

[cynthia_h]

We don't own a mower. I take individual weeds out with my weedstick. Which means that, if I miss a piece of tap root, I get to re-acquaint myself with that very weed the next year.

W/regard to onions, yes, it is the onions themselves:

Sophia Yin, DVM (UC Davis) told the harrowing experience of when she was on a senior in veterinary school. Her 72-lb Boxer nearly died from eating a snack-sized bag of onion chips. The newspaper story I read a couple of years ago had much more detail, and I remember it differently from Yin's blog entry, but the point is the same: onions can kill dogs.

The dog had helped himself, naturally, and an E.R. visit was the consequence. The much-abbreviated blog version is at https://askdryin.com/blog/tag/dog/ ; search for September 2009.

My dogs occasionally get stomach upset and go outside and eat eat eat the weeds/grass they can find. It's almost like watching a sheep crop the grass, I imagine. It's my responsibility to ensure, absolutely, that nothing my dogs can find will hurt them.

Yet *another* reason not to use chemicals on my plants--don't want doggies to eat those chemicals! Aieee!

Cynthia

[Toil]

yah you are probably ok with the wild onions. a bag of onion chips is a lot of fresh onion.

btw, off topic, but since I started occasional EM in my dogs' water bowl, they don't seem to get so many upset stomachs or liquid poo events. IDK we changed some other stuff and made big behavioral changes so it may just be that.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Cynthia, points well made and taken... you have examined your weeds and found them wanting; the key thing was that you looked them over first before killing them off. You didn't make things worse by randomly killing off the lot, leaving a vacuum to be filled by the first one to show up (likely your yellow star thistle) or using toxins that do heavens knows what to us and our animals and plants...

But did you rip them out (exposing the weed seeds they dropped three years back and depriving the soil of the roots and associated biology)? Did you cut them at the surface (my tactic of choice with my trusty action hoe; avoiding the last bit of the last sentence). Perhaps there are weeds that might help you...

I am importing my weeds this year; using fire to fight fire. That last nasty spot of glechoma (that just won't go away no matter how many times I rip it out) is getting an overseeding of lambs quarters to shade it out and out-compete it, the newer part of the wild border is geting a red cultivar of the same to add some foliage color, build some nutrition, and out-compete the grasses that keep popping up, and my yet to be built new Three Sisters bed will get an underplanting of purselane to fill in things untill they grow together, sort of a living mulch. And I can eat all these as salads or field greens! Weeds ain't so bad...

It's all how you view them...

HG

[gixxerific]

I don't feel so bad now I don't have any of these crazy take over weeds. Just clover, if you consider that a weed, dandelions and a few others. The only ones I really don't want is the crabgrass.

[The Helpful Gardener]

The crabgrass is likely the number two target for RU, but it is so easily controlled with smart lawncare, that the horrible case I started with here 5 years back is almost gone, just a touch around the edge of the driveway and along the street.

I simply started cutting at 3 1/2" cut, That did most of it. The corn gluten in spring every year helped. The early seeding with white clover the first year helped alot. The center of the lawn pretty much booted it out in year two, and the strips around those hot spots (good turf is a C3 cool season beast; crab is a C4 tropical and loves the heat.) I cut out the worst strips last year and put in turf (from edging my beds) along the driveway which should clear up this year.

A little seeding with native fescues in the long grass in fall, cut it back to two inches (in two different cuts) at the end of the year. I didn't water last year once and had the greenest lawn on the street in August. Almost no Number One RU target, dandelions, this year because I had them pulled last year; got the ones that popped up early when they were young and easy

The backyard is mostly clear; it is just the bottom that we haven't quite gotten clear, but it is a good sized back yard, and we'll finish this year. There are still plenty of "weeds", but the occasional buckthorn is good to have around for beestings, the self-heal is kinda pretty, and I wouldn't even try for a lawn without clover. The long cut makes grass outcompete the clover, so not an issue. When there is enough nitrogen the clover starts to dissappear anyway...

Round-up? Nah, forethought...

Strategy, not tactics. Especially chemical warfare.

HG

[gixxerific]

HG I cut my grass at 4 inches and will start using corn gluten this year. Didn't know about it till this site. That is the problem people don't know there are alternatives. They are taught one way and the mega companies beat it into your head even further. Not to mention the alternatives are just now coming onto the shelves.

I will be seeding this year, thinking about doing the Paul Tukey method spreading light compost than seeding. I did not seed at all last year we couldn't afford seed. But I made sure we had money from tax time set aside for a few lawn and garden things.

Oh and about "my Mission" that was too strong of a statement. Never fear I won't be kicking peoples doors down and kicking their butts for using RU and such. I'll be subtle, plus I'll wait for them to come outside. I could break my foot kicking in a door.