eco building, alternative energy, community ...

[paul wheaton]

Permaculture is a pretty massive field of study. I wonder if in this forum if the focus is strictly on the horticultural aspects or if it includes things like eco building wofati?, alternative energy, etc.

I have recently attended a workshop on "rocket mass heaters" where we built a wood stove out of mostly mud that appeared to me to burn about 10 to 20 times cleaner and could heat a house with about 5 to 10 times less wood. Something like this could also be useful for extra heat in a greenhouse.

But - would that sort of discussion be appropriate here?

And speaking of greenhouses, I've been doing a lot of study lately of Mike Oehler's techniques with greenhouses and other "Earth Integrated Structures". But again - not sure if it is a fit here.

Can anyone enlighten me on whether this sort of thing would be welcome here?

[applestar]

Paul, for my part, I'm fascinated by everything you've posted so far.
I mean, it's probably true that only a small percentage of people here are actively implementing permaculture -- it's a significant life choice after all. But I think many of us are interested in the "sustainable" aspects of it as it relates to growing things.

Some people will actually have the land, skills, finances, etc. wherewithal to take in the information you've provided and actually do something with them.

I've only become aware of permaculture in the last year -- much of it resonates with my personal philosophy and have given me the HOW that was missing in my life, letting me think "outside of the box." I'll admit up front that I'll probably only scratch the surface with what I could accomplish within my limited scope and circumstances, but that's where my personal mantra comes into play: "It's better than before."

So, please, keep them coming and don't be discouraged if you don't get a whole lot of response. It's just possible that people are just soaking up the info, like me.

[The Helpful Gardener]

From the little I know, I do understand that permaculture is about whole processes rather than individual focii (the manure goes into the plant goes into the animal who just goes...)and we loop as many things as we can, to the benefit of all. Doesn't sound like we should limit that particular discussion to just plants...the root cellar was beautiful, I can see landscape possibilities...native plant guilds...biomachines in greenhouses...

Works for me...

HG

[!potatoes!]

permaculture is definitely not just the plants. post away about fire in the greenhouse, etc...

[Toby J.]

I read a book by USDA titled Small Farm Research that first introduced me to permaculture. Years later I have purchased 43 acres and am attempting to make the farm diverse, symbiotic and use organic principles. Permaculture seems like much more of a survival strategy to me because it stresses perrenials over annual crops.

Deer are the biggest problem I have...they ate about 38 of the 50 cherry trees I planted. I'm building a smoker and learning how to make jerky now.

[The Helpful Gardener]

"What are all the oranges imported into England to the hips and haws in her hedges? She could easily spare the one, but not the other. Ask Wordsworth or any of her poets who knows, which is the most to him...The rich man's son gets cocoa-nuts and the poor man's son gets pignuts, but the worst of it is that the former never goes a-cocoa-nutting and so never gets the cream of the cocoanut, as the latter does the cream of the pignut. That on which commerce seizes is always the very coarsest part of a fruit, the mere bark and rind, in fact, for her hands are very clumsy."

Henry David Thoreau
Wild Fruits

[paul wheaton]

Toby,

One of the best books on permaculture is by .... wait for it .... Toby Hemenway ... sorry, it's just a name I don't hear very often .... and here comes the best part ...

While Toby's book doesn't cover much about deer, he did once post something on the mighty internet about keeping deer out of your stuff. It was probably the best thing I've ever read on the topic (and I have done a lot of reading in this space).

Okay ..... doing my best from memory .... If you are in a "low deer pressure" zone, meaning that there is plenty of food around and your stuff might just be slightly better than the stuff surrounding your farm, then there are all sorts of things that might work for you. But .... and this is the important part ... if the stuff on your land is edible, and the deer are starving to death ... then those things that worked great before might now be worth compromising when it comes to the pain of your electric fence vs. death by starvation.

He talked about double fences (two fences about three feet apart and about four feet high, with and without scent caps), predator urine, brambles .... and a few other things that are not coming to mind right now.

He said that the only thing that will keep them out in that situation is: a physical barrier at least eight feet tall. And some folks have reported that eight feet is not tall enough.

He did not (to my memory) say anything about the use of livestock guardian dogs (such as a great pyr).

I hope this helps.

[2cents]

Toby,

As for the deer, dogs are not the answer.
Place I used to hunt, neighboring property had two of the biggest dogs around. Just below that property was where the largest buck claimed the best grazing and small creek. The roming dogs and the biggest buck cohabitated. Although I believe they drove each other crazy.
If I had a mean streak I would have shot those dogs. They didn't make the hunting any easier.

[2cents]

Toby & Paul,
Paul perhaps you can set me straight, but permaculture is an excellent technique for raising veggies and not just perenials.
In fact so much of what we read in other forums on this site and the threads are all about natural techniques.
I have been unwittingly using hugelkultur for years and had no idea what it was called.
I have been actively gardening 40 years, no formal training and not much reading. Just watching and listening and working on the occasional farm.
Most of what I had been doing (I now know) is called double dig.
As I get older I am not as anxious to pull the old shovel out.

This year I increased my garden with a 10 x 16 section, all first year woodchips(big and chunky[4" to 2 feet long] a foot+ thick underneath as a base), then composted storm debri(small chunks[1-3" long] on top) another foot thick it had leaves and stuff.

I have potatoes, bush beans, dill, squash, beets and pumpkins growing. Not doing well; Basil, cilantro/corriander, tomatoes(had to try), onions.

I planted potatoes on top of it(just sat them on the woody stuff) and covered 1 area with 4 inches of dirt(mostly clay), tater plants look really good, knee high with buds. The second spot I planted has only 2 inches of fine compost on top, tater are up and looking great, I'll probably have to cover them later with another layer of leaves to keep the new potatoes covered.
I have another area on this expansion, I am planning some other technique for potatoes.(I am out of good compost, but have more clay)

When the first taers and beans are done, by end of June, I will switch them and get a second crop of each the first year. It has worked better than I thought it would.

[paul wheaton]

First ... dogs ... the MOST important thing about dogs on the farm: some dogs are better than others.

A great pyr will take on a cougar to protect a chicken. Most other dogs will kill the chicken long before the cougar ever shows up. My point is: just because there are examples of dogs being less than helpful doesn't mean that all dogs are that way.

Double dig: I'm against it with the exception of dirt (not soil). But, I'm riddled to the gills with obnoxious opinions that tend to annoy more than anything else. I far prefer to increase earth worm count, or toss out some buckwheat seed in an effort to get more air into the deeper soil. And hugelkultur is another great way to get air down deep ...

Hugelkultur! Just saying the word out loud is fun!

So let's see if I have it right ... you have woody bits that are a foot thick and then other organic matter an additional foot thick. Do you have soil on top of that?

[2cents]

Sorry to be long winded. Dimension are my best estimates. But I have had some limited experience in estimating and ordering yardage of gravel, concrete, and fill.
All of this is done straight on top of old grass/lawn. And beside an established raised bed. This is well above the 10 inch raised bed.

Yes, the original was all wood chunky stuff is big, bulky, and would have lots of air pockets, 4 yards of material(8x12x1.5) or so. It was hard to shovel only one or two pieces on a shovel, it was just as easy(hard) to throw and push bare handed, the rake and small coal shovel worked best.

Then six yards of storm debri, was fine ground.
I added a wheel barrow of sand/wood ash mix, a wheel barrow of clay/old garden soil, a yard of garden debri, a barrow of kitchen scraps, 2 barrows of coffee grounds, a little grass clippings(1/2 barrow), and 3-4 yards of fall leaves not ground.

This is how the materials came and I utilized all that was available. It would settle during the 3 month process of builting it. At the highest point it was mounded, 10 x 8 x 5.5 feet high.
It got hot a couple of times in different spots.

Along about January I started to rake it to the final dimensions. 10 x 16 x 2 and now only 1.5 feet high.
First row of beans was hit by frost and was replanted.
The first row beans and squash and the second is potatoes.
The beans/squash I put down 4 inches of clay/dirt and planted straight in that.
The potatoes are sitting directly on top of the original big woody stuff, with a thin layer of the smaller woody stuff on top of the big wood. I put the potato on top of this stuff(afraid it might just compost and not grow, but going by faith) and put a 4 inch layer of clay/dirt over the taters.

The rest of the growing areas, the raised hugelkultur bed is all the fine stuff. These areas were created after raking the pile down flat to the current dimension. The big woody stuff really isn't under these areas, although there are a few big sticks mixed in. It is all those wheel barrow loads and compostables and fine storm debri. Really good looking stuff, you can still identify some leaves and of course the wood chips. There were a couple of brussel sprout stems that hadn't begun to decompose in January that are likely still fairly intact in that pile.

Right now I am surprised at the results. If it produces as much veggies as I suspect, I am wondering how to keep expanding.
Other than the original work to haul in the materials, the planting has been easy work, no digging. Harvesting the potatoes shouldn't need a shovel.
Is this anything like your experience? So far it has not been a watering problem. Will it require more water in the summer?

[2cents]

Also, the whole nitrogen issue has not come into play. I was afraid all this fresh wood could stop everything from growing.
I moved one potato plant that was too close to the edge, the roots were amazing and growing right down into the wood parts.
Why isn't the nitrogen sequestation not been a problem?
I was sure I would have to add fertilized or something.
I did add alittle human urea on that pile in the winter, no more than six times and that couldn't be enough to have much affect.

Also large parts of the pile was usually dry when, I dug into it during those several months.

[paul wheaton]

Sepp Holzer would say to not water. But his hugelkultur beds tend to be much deeper, with a lot more wood, and, thus, hold a lot more water.

I think you are well on your way to great success. My only concerns are that your soil might possibly be too rich. And I would keep the wood ash away from the potatoes.