Japanese Black Pine

[constantstaticx3]

I ordered this tree from evergreen garden works last winter just before spring. I immediately planted it in what is called the 'boon' mix. I cant remember what is in it but a quick search on google could tell you that. I won't be using that mix anymore because I realized it doesn't need to be that complicated. In this first pic I have chopped the top down to around 7 inches or so and added some wire. The wire was for a method where as the tree grows the wire digs into it and thickens the trunk, I quickly abandoned this technique.
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Ok, as Spring began and the candles grew I noticed that just below the needles at the top, there were new buds forming lower down. I soon learned that it was common practice to cut these back in the spring to encourage growth lower down, so thats exactly what I did. At the same time I guessed it was the right time to pinch the candles so I removed all of them right away, following the instructions from EGG. Heres how it looked about a month later.
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After a summer of doing pretty much nothing to it it now looks like this.
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As you can see in this pic, I removed the left candle too soon resulting in it growing much longer that the others. To fix this I will prune it back next year around the same time I did the trunk chop this year to encourage buds to form lower down. Now the new candles are beginning to form and I will repeat this process again next year and start to decide which branches I will keep for the final design and which I will let grow as sacrifices.

If you guys have any questions on my process I will certainly clarify for you. This is my first attempt at a JBP so I'm learning as I go.

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Quick winter update. I removed the larger branch to the right because it was getting too out of proportion to the rest and was starting to create a reverse taper. [url=https://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01565ei6.jpg][img]https://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7910/dsc01565ei6.th.jpg[/img][/url]
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I think it looks better now, sorry for the bad pics.

It looks as though it was grafted half way up and that graft is causing some reverse taper itself. Its hard to see in the pic but it starts right where the first branch is. I'm hoping that the nebari will help thicken the lower part but I really don't know what will happen.

Tom

P.S. I would love some feedback of some sort .

[Gnome]

Tom,

Thanks for posting the pictures. I am concerned though that you are doing too much pruning too soon.

In this first pic I have chopped the top down to around 7 inches

I am only in the early years of learning Pines myself but as I understand it the less pruning done early on the better. Even if the top was never going to fit into your finished design it could have been left as a sacrifice leader. Only after a number of years of serving to thicken the trunk should it have been removed. Unless it was shading the lower branches there was no reason to remove it.

A similar case could have been made for leaving the branch, everything you cut off only serves to slow the development of the trunk. Similarly, candling is a finishing technique and you probably should not be doing much, if any, of it right now. The exception would be the branch you choose to be the new leader in the future. This branch should be managed to keep internodes close and create ramification. Everything that will not be part of the finished tree is a sacrifice.

Brent discussed this in his blog but it is a little confusing to locate specific information. I'll try to get a link here soon.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Gnome, I chopped the tree in the beginning because of the lack of lower branches. There were buds forming lower but they were not getting enough sun and energy to grow. I actually asked Brent if it was a good idea to chop it down so the lower buds could grow and he said yes definitely and that he had done the same thing to many of his trees. If I did not chop it, I would have had no lower branches that were viable in the end. I am trying to create a small tree hopefully no higher than it is now and I learned that you must start to ramify the final branches before the trunk is finished or you will end up with out of proportioned branches.

I believe my tree was grafted, and the branch I just removed was just at the base of the graft. Where this graft stats there is a "bulge" and it doesn't flow with the rest of the trunk. This branch was enlarging that "bulge" and I feared if I didn't removed it, the damage would be unfixable. I'll try to get some better pics up soon so you can see it better.

From what I have learned, at least this is the way I perceived it, I feel I have done the right thing so far but I'm no expert and this is a learning process.

I actually posted on BC my question on BC and Brent responded. I'm not sure if it's still there after the move but I'll look.

Also, I plan on letting the top branch grow on unrestricted and then I'll stick to my guns, unless proven otherwise, and prune it back again after it has reached a certain size, probably not for a year or two.

Tom

Edit: you can see the "bulge" I'm talking about in the second pick. The girth is not being transfered to the lowere portion, I'm not even sure if it was grafted.

[Gnome]

Tom,

Thanks for clarifying, I had no idea you were planning on such a small tree when finished. I did mention avoiding shading of the lower branches and that fits in with what you have observed. You are in a much better position than I to make decisions. I readily admit that I too am just starting with Pines, I have some seedlings that will be on their third summer this year.

As far as a sacrifice leader goes, now that you have encouraged new buds do you intend to allow a new one to form? The old posts from BC are gone. There was some talk of saving them but the transition happened sooner than anyone expected.

Have you seen the video of Brent grafting a Pine?

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Thanks for clarifying, I had no idea you were planning on such a small tree when finished. I did mention avoiding shading of the lower branches and that fits in with what you have observed. You are in a much better position than I to make decisions. I readily admit that I too am just starting with Pines, I have some seedlings that will be on their third summer this year.

I knew you were also just starting with pines thats why I posted here I wanted you to give me some comments and maybe some information that I did not know. Maybe we can help each other out? I'm sorry I should have stated what size I was shooting for. I have little patience to wait for a tree to grow to the large size so I elected to keep it small, plus I love the way the small ones look.

As far as a sacrifice leader goes, now that you have encouraged new buds do you intend to allow a new one to form?

I'm not sure what you mean. I will let the leader grow out for a while and then chop it back like I did in the first place. Then when those new buds form after that chop, I will choose one to be the apex. I have decided to keep the other low branch that is there. I was going to remove that one too but I'm hoping that that "bulge" will work itself out and this branch can work as a sacrifice.

Have you seen the video of Brent grafting a Pine?

Yes I have, in fact it's in my favorites .

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

As far as a sacrifice leader goes, now that you have encouraged new buds do you intend to allow a new one to form?

I'm not sure what you mean. I will let the leader grow out for a while and then chop it back like I did in the first place

Earlier you mentioned that you needed to remove the leader in order to promote some new low branches. Now that you have several new shoots I was wondering if one could be allowed to remain unpruned for several years.

I do think it is a good idea to leave the lowest branch unpruned, you could use some bulk at the base.

Look here, scroll down near the bottom. Every time I go back to Brent's writings I learn something more.

[url]https://bonsainurseryman.typepad.com/[/url]

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Earlier you mentioned that you needed to remove the leader in order to promote some new low branches. Now that you have several new shoots I was wondering if one could be allowed to remain unpruned for several years.

Yep, thats whats gonna happen.

I do think it is a good idea to leave the lowest branch unpruned, you could use some bulk at the base.

I'm also hoping that as the roots grow they will swell the base a good amount. The roots have already reached the bottom of the pot after one year I didn't think pines grew that fast.

Thanks for the link. I had just found that tonight but haven't read it yet, too tired. I'll hopefully read it tomorrow.

Thanks for replying, I felt alone for a while even though I wasn't really around .

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Gnome,

I noticed that the nebari on this tree is in trouble, I think. When I first got it I didn't do any root work I literally just put it in the pot without barely touching the roots. It was still winter at the time an I didn't want to fuss around with them. The roots now are growing straight down and as I dig into the soil, there are layers of roots going straight down. If it were yours, would you repot it this year or leave it and do it next year? I'm not sure if I should remove the upper roots and try to work with the lower ones and place them in a more lateral direction.

Heres a pic.
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Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

In all honesty I don't know what your best move would be. Since you essentially only did a slip pot last spring you could probably get away with a more thorough re-potting this season. On the other hand you have done a fair amount of pruning in just one year. Why don't you send Brent an Email with a link to this thread, he always seems willing to help his customers and the community in general.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Gnome,

Thats a good idea. Although I did just send him an email about an oak I just bought from him.

I suppose when he gets back to me on that I'll slip in another question. The best solution I can think of is to cut off the bottom portion because there are three roots in the upper portion that are around the same height. I would be afraid to do this though because like you said I've done a lot to it in one year and also that would leave it with a very weak root system.

I'm actually quite lost in my vision for this as well. Normally I would just let it grow out, if it weren't a pine, but I'm convinced I still need to start ramifying the potential final branches. Man I can't wait for Brent to come out with his book on pines that would just answer every one or at least most of my questions

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Ok, I emailed Brent about it and attached a link to this thread. I'll just post what he said.

When you cut back the leader, you got some good bud breaks. That's probably all you will need at this point. Let it grow UNPRUNED this season to regain its strength. I'm serious, don't do anything other than water and feed. Next winter, after it is strong again, you will need to repot and work on the roots. You have really good rooting, but they are going down. At this stage, you can still easily work those major roots loose so that you can get them nearly horizontal. Just slowly work them with a root hook and then plant in something shallow so you can spread them out. If you do that next winter, you will be building the base for an excellent nebari, and then can concentrate on top work. You can contact me then for the next step.

Thanks!

Brent

Just to be clear that is the actual email that Brent sent me.

I'm quite excited to see where this one goes. He seems to see the potential more than I do.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

Thanks for posting the reply, I was hoping you might.

Norm

[Chris Johnston]

I believe my tree was grafted, and the branch I just removed was just at the base of the graft. Where this graft stats there is a "bulge" and it doesn't flow with the rest of the trunk. This branch was enlarging that "bulge" and I feared if I didn't removed it, the damage would be unfixable. I'll try to get some better pics up soon so you can see it better.



Edit: you can see the "bulge" I'm talking about in the second pick. The girth is not being transfered to the lowere portion, I'm not even sure if it was grafted.

Tom,
You say the tree was grafted, and from what I can see I believe it. Was this some particular cultivar of Japanese black pine? That's the only reason I can think of for grafting it, since the understock for most two needle pine grafts is already pinus thunbergii.

[constantstaticx3]

I'm really not sure it it was grafted or not. I believe what looks like a graft could actually just be a transition from old growth to new growth. I bought it from Brent and I know he grafts a lot of his trees. I believe this one was to be grafted by him the year I bought it so it did not get grafted. Although, I'm not sure and don't believe it matters too much; I just hope it straightens itself out so I don't end up with reverse taper.

Tom