gbhunter77
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Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:54 am
Location: Michigan

I have been told I'm doing better than last year

Its not great. I don't have tons of money for huge stock. But I was told its an improvement over last years plants. Still done like.the head and shoulder look but in time something may come up to fix that. I've done this for a year and been lone wolfing it since. My club here is useless


[img]https://www.angelfire.com/on3/shellandpaulsphoto/shimp.jpg[/img]

tomc
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GB, while I only kept a few evergreens on my bench. Your post sounds ambivalent. It makes me want to wonder out loud, if one more juniper will let you grow with your collection.

Have you tried free-cycle or craigs-list for free orphan stock?

I found for myself the trees that drew me to tray-training trees, led me off to 'other' or next trees I just had to work with.

Among those were; bald cypress, crab apples, pear, and larch. None of which I bought, they were all orphans or foraged (yamadori).

If advice is your desire, you might want to shop someplace else. Styling will come as the trees you already got mature.

kdodds
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IME, freecycle and craigs are huge dead ends in my area so best that can be said is it will be a mixed bag, dependent on your local listers. If I'm selling or giving away the biggest headaches are from the people who want pics, or have a gazillion questions about a free or basically free bonsai start and those who arrange to deal and then just never follow through. On the buying/getting end it's been even worse. Overpricing on craigs in my area is huge. People want, for instance, $2/each for just broke maple seedlings IF you gather them yourself. Wait, what, you want me to PAY you for the "privilege" of weeding your garden? No thanks. Then there was a guy who wanted $600 for a landscape juniper he was trashing, of and the umpteen billion people who are seeking free tree/shrub idenitification service.

For me anyway, it's much more worth the effort to save your pennies for some quality stock. And for stuff you don't want any more? If it's sellable, I'll go local or ebay, otherwise it goes in the trash. It's unfortunate, but there are too many bad apples out there, in my area at least. Oh, and for those selling bonsai on craigs or giving them away on freecycle, word of advice, NEVER have someone come to your home (where all of your other bonsai are likely unsecured) for pick up.

gbhunter77
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Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:54 am
Location: Michigan

Very unsafe and as soon as the word bonsai is mentioned the price goes up to 300 times its previous quote. I live in a sprawling metropolis so yamadori is not going to happen here. Also I don't want to drop 300$ only to screw it up. I have seen many people including "masters" tell me that I do no need a massive trunk as long as I enjoy it and others "lamen" like it what do you care. I guess that's my problem.. I do care. Planting it in the ground is an idea but I have a Scott's pine in the ground took of all the candles have me buds all over only to have certain branches develo huge bald spots. To the trash heap it goes plus around here there is no bonsai dealers that will sell anything other than young stock. I don't want to drop 300+ on a jao maple or other such thing only to be told I ruined it. So I use smaller trees to see if I can style them before screwing my self out of a ton of money. Oh just in case you a wondering most of Norther Michigan is protected land so no digging anything.. the owners of land up there will charge an arm and a leg to even let you on their land yet alone take something. Guess I'm stuck to small trees. I did buy a spruce for 70$. Ya that's fire wood now.
I'm really thinking of trashing the entire bunch sell the tools and be done with it, obviously I do not have the required aptitude for this hobby.

tomc
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Um how many years is the longest still living tree in your collection? Styling is incrimental. Nothing gets done in a single year. Most of mine are barely started in the 10-15 years I've been tinkering with them.

I am slowing, and aging out of bonsai. A day is gonna come when the last of my children will have to go to other collections.

As my pace has slowed, by search for more new trees to train has slowed too. But I have to say my credulity is stretched, in that you can not hagle a tree headed for the stump pile in a land-fill to a free tree to work on.

The guy who is tossing his tree to the land fill, is being done a favor by you. If you pick it up he don't have to haul it off.

As for value, if mention of bonsai conflates the perceived value of a stump, he (or she) can can prepay $ 10-15 dollars per year, for the average of 20 years it takes to train one.

I am incredibly picky about what trees I style, and they don't cost me bupkis.

If that won't do, stop asking and start foraging. Crab apples are planted in public space everywhere. Pick a few in October and pot the seed up for a spring germination. Same for an August harvest of Japan maple seeds. Don't dry them, plant them to pot and let the seasons cold stratify them.

If you want instant gratification, bonsai may not be for you.

gbhunter77
Senior Member
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:54 am
Location: Michigan

Don't get me wrong I'm willing to put in the time. I just don't want to spend 20 years with a tree that was a loss from the start. People tell me not to throw trees away and be patient. But I don't want to invest a ton of time in something that was trash from the start. After only a year its hard to judge what may or may not have growth motential. I love doing it I just want to do it well.

gbhunter77
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Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:54 am
Location: Michigan

Don't get me wrong I'm willing to put in the time. I just don't want to spend 20 years with a tree that was a loss from the start. People tell me not to throw trees away and be patient. But I don't want to invest a ton of time in something that was trash from the start. After only a year its hard to judge what may or may not have growth potential. I love doing it I just want to do it well. Its hard to do it well when your club sucks. No one would tell me how they got their tree to the point its at, they would just yammer on how much work it was but never what they actually did!

gbhunter77
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:54 am
Location: Michigan

I like it so I guess that's what matters.

tomc
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Well, I got a pretty fat head, so I like my work, and don't hunt too hard for others critic of my work.

What I am pretty sure of, is the measure twice (or draw out-twice), and cut once, of my earlier work sometimes got reworked in later years.

I probably should let the two remaining celtis ROR I have aught to be set free of their pots. I don't think I will though, their habit will never style a great tree. But I'm still stuck on them.

Your work will ripen. This is why you want a nice chair or stool to sit while you tinker on your trees while you talk to them over morning coffee.

gbhunter77
Senior Member
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:54 am
Location: Michigan

Thanks. It will take time but will take more time. I do magic ...or card slights to be more accurate. It took months of practice to get certain moves, I need the same attitude toward bonsai.

kdodds
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Location: Airmont, NY Zone 6/7

gbhunter77 wrote:Don't get me wrong I'm willing to put in the time. I just don't want to spend 20 years with a tree that was a loss from the start. People tell me not to throw trees away and be patient. But I don't want to invest a ton of time in something that was trash from the start. After only a year its hard to judge what may or may not have growth potential. I love doing it I just want to do it well. Its hard to do it well when your club sucks. No one would tell me how they got their tree to the point its at, they would just yammer on how much work it was but never what they actually did!
Well, now there's a problem that's self-defeating from the outset. You can easily avoid having to put in the 20 years to get a good start by investing a couple of hundred dollars in some nice stock from reputable bonsai stock dealers (like Evergreen Gardenworks, Wigert's Bonsai, etc.). This will get you to a point where you *would be* in about 10 to 20 years, instantaneously, with a quality tree. But, you don't want to do that, you want to spend a couple of dollars on twigs that will take 2 decades to reach a point where they look like something and you, admittedly, have no clue how to get them there.

IMO, stop self-flagellating. It's getting really old at this point, sorry. Either start with a dozen or couple of dozen inexpensive starts of the same species and invest the time and effort to learn how what you do effects the tree OR invest in a decent piece of stock and take classes without a chip on your shoulder. Listen to what the master says, follow his instruction, blindly at first if you must, and learn. Either path can get you there and both have their merits.

What you seem to be doing now, buying a tree only to toss it and move on to another after a year or so, well, that's never going to get you anywhere. Bonsai is an avocation of time and patience, both MUST be invested, even if the return is initially poor, in order to progress.

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Listen to what the master says, follow his instruction,
That's good advice and I think he wants to follow the instruction but his local bonsai club isn't forthcoming with the instruction he's asking for. They're speaking in generalities when what he needs is specifics.
Its hard to do it well when your club sucks. No one would tell me how they got their tree to the point its at, they would just yammer on how much work it was but never what they actually did!
That must be very frustrating. One of the points of a club is to share information, particularly the how-to's. There are many [url=https://mababonsai.org/pages/michigan.html]bonsai[/url] [url=https://absbonsai.org/bonsai-club-directory/usa#MI]clubs[/url] in Michigan and perhaps it might be rewarding to take a drive further out to another one? A good mentor can make a difference.

gbhunter77
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Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:54 am
Location: Michigan

I talked with the gentleman from evergreen Gardenworks, I'll buy something older.
But I do not intend to give up on my smaller plants. I know the trunks are thickening, I can see the wire getting tighter. Some already look like they will not amount to much but I like taking care of them and trimming them. I took a 75$ class and got nothing from it...other than a three trunk spruce that has excellent top roots ,trunks are large but I just can't see any potential. Perhaps letting it grow out a bit will help. I can post a pic but I'm not sure it will help. I'm starting to dislike tropical plants just because the cost of keeping them in winter. Michigan has a short growing season so artificial lights chew up power.

On an off topic I did transplant a JMP and it sprouted all over. Lots of leaves, once winter comes I will decide what branches to keep and how to wire them. A larger trunk would be better but I got this maple for 15$ last one on the lot in November, it was tagged 200$. I agree about one thing with you Kdodds and that is I should stop beating my self up over this. I have seen 10$ plants get to be award winners in due time. God willing I have time an intend to see if I can make some of these into smaller bonsai. If I fail its better to fail on a 15$ plant then the 150$ I'm looking at.

kdodds
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gbhunter77 wrote:I took a 75$ class and got nothing from it...other than a three trunk spruce that has excellent top roots ,trunks are large but I just can't see any potential. Perhaps letting it grow out a bit will help.
I can't speak to the quality of the class you took here, but I can speak to the overall theme of your posts over time. Class sucked, club sucked, books suck. Pretty much sums it up. Please understand, I am NOT trying to bash you here, I AM trying to help. I am suggesting that, perhaps, a little conscious work on your perspective may help more than buying new stock from a new place, or finding a new club, or taking new classes, or buying a new book. What I meant when I said listen was this: STOP thinking you know what's good and bad about bonsai, bonsai classes, bonsai stock. GIve yourself over to the class, to the master. Make sure you take a SERIES of instruction, not a single class. When your inner voice speaks, no matter what it's saying, tell it to shut up and listen to the master.

Your main hurdle seems to be getting over your unrealistic expectations of what you should be able to do and understand at this stage, which, in terms of developing bonsai and giving up "control". If you can't see what can be, then you have to learn to see. If it's not there, it's not soemthing you can force upon yourself, it's something you need to develop with guidamce and you can't be guided if you won't allow yourself to be led. See what I'm saying? They can't ALL suck. Perhaps there are others in your area that could recommend a good teacher? Most of the better "non-name" teachers will NOT be charging $75-150 per "workshop" for ongoing apprentices. Many will accept a few hours of work in a nursery as payment for their experience. For many, the time involved in that in today's busy world is too much, but it may be the right way for you to go, kind of like the neophyte in a martial arts movie, you need to maybe have what you don't know broken out before you can be filled with knowledge. ;)

Again, just trying to help here. You seem to be SO enthusiastic about bonsai and SO bummed about not being able to get anywhere. From my perspective, the above seems to be the exact "problem" you're facing.

kdodds
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Oh, as for this Shimpaku... it shows a lot of promise to me. If you'd like me to show you some virtualizations, please post some images from varying angles at eye level through a site that allows direct linking to the image (like photobucket). Your proposed front seems the most likely with maybe only a slight clockwise turn. But, you never know what you'll see when you get other angles. From what I can see, you *could* get a pretty nice tree out of this one in 5-10 years time.

gbhunter77
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Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:54 am
Location: Michigan

Lol just kidding, shimpaku are my favorite material. Due to the sheer volume of trees I was getting I have limited myself to shimpaku,maple and pine black pine but Scott's pine has its rewards too,like it loves Michigan winter, I just have to do more reading on how to remove needles when and h many. My tropicals have been thinned out a lot. The bougenvelia just barely survived under lights so that will be something maybe in 20 years or more if it survives another Michigan winter indors. Just have to be slow, think about what I'm cutting and why, like chess.

The Ficus Guy
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gbhunter77 wrote: I'm starting to dislike tropical plants just because the cost of keeping them in winter. Michigan has a short growing season so artificial lights chew up power.
I disagree, fluorescent lighting is pretty cheap. No more than a few bucks a month (for T8s, at least).

gbhunter77
Senior Member
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:54 am
Location: Michigan

It worked on most of my tropicals but never on the bougenvillas they lost all their leaves and just sat there. I use plant lighting about 450W so like 35$ a month here in Michigan. All other tropicals did well. Unfortunately the bougies are my favorite. I had a pixie but it did not survive the winter. Perhaps bulbs closer together will yield better results. The temperature in the growing chamber is 70 at night at 90 during day wich I'd 16 hours long under the lights.

tomc
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I am covered in dirt, heck even my dirt has dirt on it.

I still have two upright yew to take a couple towns over,

BUT

My local service station is digging out their hedges and replacing them with annual flowers.

The autumn olive weren't that exciting, the boxwoods however were to die for. Literally, each one with a soil ball is in excess of ten stone.

Now this isn't that good of a time of year to repot trees, but I'm giving them a hard chop and potting them up in nice roomy 15 gallon landscape pots.

Tree (2) boxwoods, free for the asking
landscape pots (2) free from free-cycle
Soil less than $ 6 bought by the 50# bag

Now These trees might die from transplant shock. They were headed to a landfill anyways.

I might die from exertion.

But they still dirt cheap...



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