Chinese Elm 2

[constantstaticx3]

I have been working on this one since last year and this year did some major pruning.
Here it is before. Most of the branches had no ramification.
[url=https://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01319rt9.jpg][img]https://img240.imageshack.us/img240/7436/dsc01319rt9.th.jpg[/img][/url]
Here it is after.
[url=https://img476.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01351or5.jpg][img]https://img476.imageshack.us/img476/9848/dsc01351or5.th.jpg[/img][/url]
There is a branch at the top that needs to be pruned. It has a wire mark and is very strait with no taper. I'm not sure if I should cut it now or wait because it is quite a large branch.
[url=https://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01353ee6.jpg][img]https://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2018/dsc01353ee6.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Though gnome did trunk chop his tree, I'm not sure if most of the energy would go to the bottom branches or the top and end up bypassing some of them. I'm in the ramification stage so I'm not sure if I should be a bit more conservative.

Comments welcome .

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I agree with your assessment that the branch needs something done with it. I see no reason not to prune it soon. No sense in putting energy into a branch that you are going to remove.

Are you looking to get rid of it entirely or use it to build from? It is thicker than the branches below it, which seems inappropriate. Normally the thickest branch is at the bottom, decreasing in girth nearer the apex.

If you think it is too thick to use, cut it long leaving a stub. Many times this will encourage new buds to form at the collar.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Yea, this branch seemed to be the original apex to the tree but a different branch replaced it. This may explain why it is so thick. I don't want o remove it entirely because it will be tough to get another branch to grow back the way I want so I'm going to cut it maybe a half an ich from the trunk and grow it out from there.

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Here it is after all the pruning is done for now. I plan on leaving the front branch and apex alone this year as they are pretty much refined. I qill cut them back more in the winter to further their refinement.
[url=https://img471.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01356ve8.jpg][img]https://img471.imageshack.us/img471/189/dsc01356ve8.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I'm glad you mentioned the front branch. With it growing straight toward the viewer it is difficult, at least from the picture, to get a good feel for the branch. Perhaps the tree gives a different impression in person.

Just for the sake of conversation, how would it look if you rotated the tree clockwise about 45 degrees. One option might be to rotate it 180 degrees so the front branch becomes the back branch. Another would be to remove it entirely, not necessarily any time soon as it can serve as a sacrifice to thicken the lower portion of the trunk. Just a few things to think about.

I still have my fingers crossed about my Elm.

Norm

[ynot]

Tom,

I think when you get this under some good light [Or outside] It will really

take off .

You might consider a mid-summer partial defoliation of the apex to yet further ramify it.

ynot

[constantstaticx3]

I'm quite reluctant to remove that front branch because the tree would look bare without it. There is a similar branch in the back that I also have cut back. Do you want me to take a pic at an angle so you can see the front branch?

This can be the only front to the tree because of the way the trunk moves if thats what you mean. The apex tilts this way and theres really no way to change that. I'll take some more pics at different angles so you can see what I mean.

Ynot, yes thats a good idea but instead of defoliating I think I'll just trim some of the longer twigs out, there are some twigs at the top that should probobly be tended to earlier and I will do this just before its second growth spurt in the middle of summer. Because this tree grows so fast, it might be quite ramified by the end of the growing season.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I'm quite reluctant to remove that front branch because the tree would look bare without it. There is a similar branch in the back that I also have cut back. Do you want me to take a pic at an angle so you can see the front branch?

I understand, you have a much better vantage point than we do. It's hard to get a feel for a tree from just a few photos. I have a hard enough time with some of my trees that are right in front of me.

Rather than remove it entirely, perhaps you could do some selective pruning to redirect it more to the left so that it is more "in profile". In conjunction with a small rotation clockwise as I mentioned above it might look good. Just play around in your head with the possibilities. You have plenty of time.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Gnome,

Here are some pics so you can better understand the front branch.
This is a view from the left.
[url=https://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01358fn5.jpg][img]https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3377/dsc01358fn5.th.jpg[/img][/url]
A closer view from the left.
[url=https://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01359lp7.jpg][img]https://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6144/dsc01359lp7.th.jpg[/img][/url]
From the right.
[url=https://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01361cz7.jpg][img]https://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7296/dsc01361cz7.th.jpg[/img][/url]
From above.
[url=https://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01362pa8.jpg][img]https://img249.imageshack.us/img249/1749/dsc01362pa8.th.jpg[/img][/url]
It tilts to the right so if I were to trim it to tilt to the left I would have to cut it back to the first branchlet.


Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Just a quick update on my refining trials.
Heres a few pics, you can see it is thinned out alot but I have managed to get growth in the areas it is need. In this first pic you can notice a branch in the back that doesn't seem right, I will be cutting that back this wither and maybe completly off. I will also trim the front branch back a lot this winter.
[url=https://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01426gg1.jpg][img]https://img172.imageshack.us/img172/5853/dsc01426gg1.th.jpg[/img][/url]
Here is a close up of the primary branch which I am very happy with now.
[url=https://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01428dj7.jpg][img]https://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3581/dsc01428dj7.th.jpg[/img][/url]
Here is a pic of the number four branch that will eventualy help fill out the apex. There was a branch there before but it was too thick so I pruned it to a stub, but I wasn't getting growth on it where I wanted. I then noticed this bud gowing the other day so I removed the stub so this one could grow out.
[url=https://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01427jr6.jpg][img]https://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6493/dsc01427jr6.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Well, let me know what you think of my progress and if you have any suggestions. Do you have any suggestions on what I should do with the apex? You can see the base of it in the last pic, I'm not liking the way it looks now.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I did not forget about your tree but I am having a hard time coming up with any suggestions for you. It is looking a little sparse right now so I think I would keep it well fed and in good light in order for it to put on some good growth.

Your primary branch is working out for you. Don't prune it for now, after it thickens a bit you can wire it into position to set it in place for next year. You will only keep a little bit of this years growth so when you wire it don't worry about more than the first inch or so. That is where you want to concentrate any movement you may wish to impart to it. Next spring you can cut it back again. This way you get movement and taper. You may also wish to encourage two branches at that location in order to begin the ramification of the branch.

The portion of the trunk just below the apex has no taper will need some sort of solution, perhaps the whole thing could be reduced and an entirely new apex regrown a bit lower. At any rate I think it should be allowed to put on a lot of unchecked growth this year to invigorate the tree.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

I knew you didn't forget about it .

Yes it is very sparse but as you might be able to see in the third pic, it has new buds that just popped open so it should start to fill out soon. I added some osmocote to the top layer of soil, I am bad at remembering to fertilize every other week so time release was the way to go for me. I may need use some liquid fertilizer down the road for a little extra boost but I'm going to see how this goes for now. I used the osmocote on all my trees so I'm going to see what happens this year and experiment every year with something new and then use what works best.

I think for the apex, I'm either going to cut off all but one of those branches or cut just below where they all come out and grow a completely new apex. I have till winter to decide.

For the number one branch, there is a wound just behind the new growth from when I cut it back so I may get something to grow from that when it heals.

I am deffinantly going to let it go the rest of the year, its had plenty of pruning this year and needs some time to grow.

This ones got a long way to go and I know with the trunk and all it will never be too great but I like that I can use it to learn how to ramify a tree. As all my other trees aren't even close to this stage its good to learn it now so when I have to do it on my other trees I already know what to do.

Thanks a lot for your input .


Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Ok, Just an update on its progress.

It is really starting to fill out now and I will let it grow wild for this summer.
[url=https://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01444ho5.jpg][img]https://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5025/dsc01444ho5.th.jpg[/img][/url]


Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

Your tree looks much healthier than last time, you seem to be managing it well.

This ones got a long way to go and I know with the trunk and all it will never be too great but I like that I can use it to learn how to ramify a tree. As all my other trees aren't even close to this stage its good to learn it now so when I have to do it on my other trees I already know what to do.

I think this is a good attitude, using this tree to solidify your skills.

I think for the apex, I'm either going to cut off all but one of those branches or cut just below where they all come out and grow a completely new apex. I have till winter to decide.

If you are considering removing the apex an air layer will yield you a small tree that you can add to your collection and more importantly a new tool to add to your bag of tricks. As you say you have a while to consider your options.

By the way I see the progress with the first branch. Are you planning to allow both of the offshoots to remain? The three growing points on the branch should really help to thicken it.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Are you planning to allow both of the offshoots to remain?

Yes I do. I want them to thicken a lot more so I may let them go next year as well but I feel that when I eventually cut them back it will form a nice uniform forked branch.

I like the air layering the top idea. I might be able to make a small broom out of it.

I actually have an air layer in process on my juniper. Time will tell if its actually working .

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Ok, here it is...it isn't a great pic but you get the point.
[url=https://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01488qt5.jpg][img]https://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9377/dsc01488qt5.th.jpg[/img][/url]
It has grown out nicely so far. The foliage is now starting to die off now that its fall. This will be my first year leaving it outside, although if it snows it will come in my garage.

Gnome, should I prune it back now or should I wait till before spring? I'm thinking I could prune the parts back that I need to ramify and then leave the parts that need too thicken.

I also need to decide what I'm going to do with the apex.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

Glad to see that your tree is doing well. Did you follow the link I posted in my Elm thread? It is a little difficult to follow without the pictures but worth a second look especially if you only skimmed it the first time. After reading the article I have come to the conclusion that it is too soon to begin the ramification process, the primary branches need to thicken more.

If you do decide to prune portions of it now it may be better not to prune it back to the intended location now. If you leave it a little scraggly it for now you can fine tune it in the spring when you know if you experienced any die-back.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Well, I killed it. I tried letting it go dormant in the cold this year but it didn't seem to be working like I thought it would. I thought the leaves would turn yellow and fall off but this was not the case. While all my other trees had gone dormant, the leaves on this one turned brown and green. Well the idiot I am, I placed it in my garage with a few other trees and literally neglected them until this week. When I checked on them, this one was all shriveled up and obviously dead. I guess this one did not go dormant and still needed water?

All my other trees, including a cork bark elm, are fully dormant and doing fine.

I'll be buying another better one and the flower show in march to replace it.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

Sorry to hear about the difficulty with this one. Apparently there is quite a bit of variability in Chinese Elms depending on where the stock originated. Being sub-tropical they have a tendency to try to keep growing even when temperate trees "know" it's time to go dormant. I guess they expect the winter to be short so they try to remain active. Mine maintained some green foliage until I recently defoliated it. I did this for disease control, I have a problem with black spot and the spores can over-winter on old leaves.

As you have discovered, even in winter you have to keep a eye on things and not everything will behave the same, just like summer. I check my things that are under shelter at least once a week this time of year. The stuff outside under mulch does not need me now so I just leave them alone.

I hope you have not thrown your tree out. There is enough bulk in the trunk that it may recover, you may have the opportunity to take the tree in a new direction. Have you tried the scratch test?

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

I hope you have not thrown your tree out. There is enough bulk in the trunk that it may recover, you may have the opportunity to take the tree in a new direction. Have you tried the scratch test?

Lol. Yes I have thrown it out. I should have taken a pic but the trunk had shriveled to half its size and the scratch test came out brown. It was pretty sad but it was so bad off I couldn't help but laugh .

I've accepted the fact that I killed it and I'm gonna move on. I plan on paying a little extra for a nicer tree at the Philadelphia Flower Show in March. I may send Meehans an email to request they bring some trees with bigger trunks. I saw on their website they have some nice ones. When I do get another tree, I'll continue using this thread to report its progress.

Tom

Edit: When I took it out of the pot, I could see how well the roots were doing in the new soil I can only imagine how nice the roots are on my other trees .

[constantstaticx3]

I came across this tree on the meehan's website. https://www.meehansminiatures.com/shop/index.php?action=item&id=748&prevaction=search&previd=&prevstart=12
I have asked them to bring this one and there more developed elms to the philadelphia flower show in march so I can really get a good look at them. I believe this one is worth the money and I would be happy to replace my old one with it. What do ya think .

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

Consider the 6:1 and the 3:1 rules. With a diameter of perhaps 1.5 inches that would put your finished hieght at about 9 inches. This trunk is very straight and lacks much taper, it would make a nice broom. The rule of thirds means 3 inches to the chop and 6 inches of branches/foliage. I thnk a broom can look good stretching the rules a bit perhaps 4 and 8 for a finished tree af 12 inches. Are you prepared to spend $50.00 on this and cut it back to 3 or 4 inches?

Another options with the straight trunk would be a formal upright of similar height. Otherwise a very low chop would be required to get some movement and taper low in the trunk. With this option you would probably want to plant it out in a growing bed to get established and chop it in 2009. It would then have to spend years in the ground with several more chops to get a trunk suitable for an informal upright.

Only you can decide if it is worth it to you, but consider your options before you buy. I got this stump on E-bay for considerably less, unfortunately I kept messing with it until I killed it.
[url=https://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=corkelmru0.jpg][img]https://img505.imageshack.us/img505/6104/corkelmru0.th.jpg[/img][/url]

[url]https://www.hollowcreekbonsai.com/productCat25263.ctlg[/url]

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Wow, I didn't see it that way. Well, I asked them to bring a variety of them so I'll see what they bring.

That was an awesome trunk. Was that a cork bark variety?

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

Wow, I didn't see it that way.

Since you seemed so inspired by Brent's recent comments I thought I would just point that out.

That was an awesome trunk. Was that a cork bark variety?

Yeah it was listed as a Cork Bark, very different than the smooth one in the "thread graft" thread. I was pleased with it, but alas it is no more.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Since you seemed so inspired by Brent's recent comments I thought I would just point that out.

Yea thanks. I believe I am blind in my search for a replacement. I new I would have to cut it back but didn't take the time to look at it in the long run.

I have a cork bark elm myself. It is very young with about a 1/3" trunk base at best but it is already showing the aged bark look at the base. I plan on making a broom style out of it. I know it will not be typical because of the bark but I kinda like that fact. Still lots of years of growth before I can start though.

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

I just received this tree that I ordered last week. It wasn't exactly what I was hoping for but I do believe it will be a fine tree in a couple years. I'm not sure what the nebari is like, I will find out next year when I change the soil to my own. There is some rot at the base of the trunk that I have carved out and sealed with cut paste. I will either let it heal over or incorporate it as deadwood. The latter is what I'm going for.

I have attached pics showing the whole tree, the rot and where I intend to chop it next spring. I hope to get lower bu breaks but if not, I will just bring upper branches down. The trunk is an inch thick and the final tree will be somewhere near 5 inches tall.
[url=https://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01756qv6.jpg][img]https://img102.imageshack.us/img102/5542/dsc01756qv6.th.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=https://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01762tr7.jpg][img]https://img329.imageshack.us/img329/3072/dsc01762tr7.th.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=https://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01759ck0.jpg][img]https://img385.imageshack.us/img385/6622/dsc01759ck0.th.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01761zc9.jpg][img]https://img524.imageshack.us/img524/6200/dsc01761zc9.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Tom

[alisios]

Hey Tom - I like what you plan to do. The soil doesn't look so bad...

[Gnome]

Tom

Hey Tom - The soil doesn't look so bad...

I agree, it looks reasonable from here. The only time I have had any real trouble with Chinese Elms has been associated with re-potting which has me a little stumped as everything I read says they are nearly indestructible.

When I re-potted mine this year the root growth was nowhere near what I expected. I have Privets that outgrow their pots every season. But the Elm, despite three years (I think) in the same pot, had surprisingly little root growth, especially considering how much foliage there was on top.

Just some things to think about.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

No the soil isn't that bad but there seems to be some of the old soil that still clings to the trunk which may be causing some rot. The soil is also more suited for weather in Florida, where the tree came from, so I am afraid because it is kind of sandy it may dry out too quickly for my climate. He is a respected vendor so good soil is expected it just isn't suitable for my area. I also want to do it so I can get a look at the nebari so I can figure out my design.

Norm, I have repotted the original tree of this thread multiple times in one year, about three I think, it was never phased. I don't know what your problem could be. I'm gonna be careful this time though. I hope to take cuttings and grow a lot of these. I've realized I need to stick to the varieties that grow best in my area and that I like instead of buying one of every species. I'll keep what I have now but for now on I'm going to try to stick to elms, maples, and pines. Of course random nursery material will always be in the mix as well, its just that I find having many different varieties can be too much to handle at times.

Tom