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Gnome
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Here's an update on the Zelkova:

The layer is underway and is very promising. This first set shows some of the layering process that was performed on April 26.
[url=https://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17511658zu8.jpg][img]https://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2153/17511658zu8.th.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=https://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=25487708oc8.jpg][img]https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9528/25487708oc8.th.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=https://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=44696401fc7.jpg][img]https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/184/44696401fc7.th.jpg[/img][/url]


and this one is from today, May 28, just over one month later and new roots can now be seen where I gently removed some of the soil to check on the progress. There were also a few others around the back that are not visible.
[url=https://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=25163305da3.jpg][img]https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4338/25163305da3.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Norm

constantstaticx3
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That is fantastic great job. I suppose you will leave this until next spring or will you separate it near the end of summer? I might go for safety and leave it till next year. Good luck.

Tom

EDIT: What root hormone did you use or didn't you use one?

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Gnome
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Tom,

Thanks for the kind words, I'm hopeful. I'm not sure how long to leave it. At this rate it may be possible to separate it this summer, we'll see. The hormone I used is Schultz 'Take Root' I've lost part of the label but if I recall it is .01% IBA.

Norm

seanchai
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Thanks for the updates, Norm. I'm really enjoying this thread. I quite like the look of zelkovas... might go take a look at some in the next week or so, just to get an idea of what I want. I'm quite sure I won't buy any stock any time soon, nor be competent enough to do anything on this scale for a few years! But I'm a person who likes to look (and look some more) before I leap. This thread has given me a lot of food for thought in terms of plans for the very distant future.

Best of luck with this project. It's really beautiful.

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Gnome
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seanchai,
I quite like the look of zelkovas... might go take a look at some in the next week or so, just to get an idea of what I want. I'm quite sure I won't buy any stock any time soon, nor be competent enough to do anything on this scale for a few years!
You can do this, the steps are all right here and I will be glad to help with any questions you may have. Mostly it is just day-to-day care with a few extra steps. The layering is not difficult either. In the past I have not had a lot of luck layering for various reasons but I am two for two with Zelkova.

This tree started as conventional nursery stock, not bonsai material. I paid just $20.00 for it at Lowe's, but I have not seen them since that year. Could be I just missed them though as I did not buy a lot of their stock recently. If you get one this year you will not do anything with it, except to maintain it, until early next spring. This conveniently gives you the opportunity to learn how to manage it. Look for a straight trunk or at least one with a straight portion, as you can always layer it as I did. The name to ask for is Zelkova serrata, commonly known as Japanese grey bark Elm.

Norm

seanchai
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Thanks for the encouragement, Norm. I think for this year I'm going to focus on keeping my rheingold arborvite and kingsville boxwood thriving - I'm already a little stressed because I'll have to be gone for five days at the end of august. Not exactly a vacation... more of an unavoidable business trip. (I won't get into why on this board, but it's gotten a lot of news coverage lately ;) ) Anyway, I trust my mother to look after my trees while I'm gone, but I'm sure you know that feeling of general anxiety whenever one has to leave one's trees in the care of others.

So given that, a zelkova may have to wait for next year... I say that now, of course. Once I've gone looking, who knows... I might well be the owner of some zelkova nursery stock sooner than I intend.

Would definitely like to try a project like this myself, though. It looks like an opportunity to *learn* a lot, and I always enjoy those.

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seanchai,

If you have any desire to do this next year you will need to think ahead this year and have one on hand at the proper time which is too early for many local nurseries. Most nursery plants that are established in their pots can easily be removed without disturbing their roots. It would be a simple matter to dig a hole in an out of the way place and 'heel in' a tree.

In this fashion it will not require much in the way of care and it will be there for you next spring. This is exactly how I managed mine over their first winter. The next spring I started this project with one and planted some others out in the garden to get some growth.

Norm

seanchai
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very good to know, thanks. That's part of why I want to go looking now - I know that if I find a good specimen, now's the time to grab one. I also very much see the wisdom in giving myself time to learn how to manage the species before doing anything drastic. I'm just not sure if my finances will allow for it in the next month or so... money's tight for me at the moment. And I'm wary of getting one too close to august and being gone shortly after the tree's been taken from the nursery to my home. I'm keeping my options open, though, and will definitely keep your words in mind.

Thanks for the help.

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sean117Ply
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Just letting you know I am using this thread as inspiration. I thought of this thread when I saw the tridant maple at the nursery and thought I would give it a shot. It's looking great by the way.

Cheers
-Sean

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Sean,

Glad that this is giving you something to think about.

New update:

Since the last picture from 5-28 the roots have grown at a rate that has truly surprised me. Today, 6-14, barely two weeks later I was able to separate the top from the base.
[url=https://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zrootsux8.jpg][img]https://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6519/zrootsux8.th.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=https://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zpottedzl6.jpg][img]https://img363.imageshack.us/img363/8955/zpottedzl6.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Norm

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That is awesome it could not have gone better. You will now be able to create an exceptional nebari with how those roots span so evenly around the base. Great work I'm thrilled. The overall proportions look great as well. Did? you put that pond basket under the roots when you potted it?

Tom

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Great job Norm - would you root prune this year also?

How close to the new bottom did you severe the old trunk?

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Thanks Guys,

Tom,

No the pond basket was just used for support to take the picture. The grow box it is now in is only about 3 inches high so it never would have fit. I have used a similar technique in the past though with cuttings. A smaller pot is inverted inside a larger one and the plant is place on top. This encourages the roots to spread.

alisios,

A few of the tender root tips were damaged so I did nip a few back but overall, no I did not make any real attempt to prune the roots yet. I expect to re-pot it again next spring in order to begin the process of choosing which roots to keep. As it is now there are way too many but I was afraid to do much with them right now.

The stub is about 1" long now and will need to be reduced later but again the roots are too delicate to allow much work down there. By next Spring the roots should be lignified enough to tolerate some work. I know from past experience that Zelkova roots are very vigorous and if I wait longer it will only make it more difficult to begin to refine the roots.

Norm

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Here is a photo of the tree as it is now. I did not do much to it this year other than a little root work at re-potting and allowing it to regain some vigor after the layering process.

[url=https://img43.imageshack.us/I/zelkova.jpg/][img]https://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2228/zelkova.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Norm

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bewildered_nmsu
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Those burned leaf tips remind me of the aspens I'm working. It can be such a challenge just keeping these plants looking presentable sometimes. Keep up the good work.

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bewildered,
It can be such a challenge just keeping these plants looking presentable sometimes. Keep up the good work.
Yeah, some things get pretty ratty looking by the end of the season. I don't think this one is terribly well established since the layer and that may have something to with it.

Norm

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2010 Update:

OK, I intend to update this one. First I have a little confession to make, something that I conveniently left out previously. Looking back to 2008, after severing the tree from the roots you can see that I placed it directly into a relatively large gray grow box. This was the first of two blunders that nearly killed the tree. To compound the problem I then immediately returned the tree to an open position where it received good sun and the tree nearly died due to my foolishness and haste.

Here's what I think happened. The large volume of soil stayed wet too long and being in full sun it also heated up somewhat. Apparently the extremely tender, new roots simply were not capable of dealing with that kind of stress and began to rot. Luckily I recognized the problem and did an emergency downsizing of the pot and moved it to a more sheltered position. During the re-potting I found mushy black roots that I removed as best I could without disturbing the ones that looked better. This is how it spent the balance of 2008. I was not at all sure of its recovery. This picture is actually after the leaves dropped that year.

[url=https://img528.imageshack.us/I/p1010001crop.jpg/][img]https://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2017/p1010001crop.th.jpg[/img][/url]


The following spring (2009) I again re-potted to have a look. Things had not really progressed much. There was still a tangle of very immature roots and I decided that I would not do much. Some minor root work was accomplished but overall I did very little, I did not even remove the stub that remained from the parent tree. This time I potted it up only slightly into the terracotta looking plastic bonsai pot shown above, and again it spent that summer in a fairly sheltered location. It did not make a lot of progress that summer and the leaf tips burned somewhat by fall but at least I was assured it was going to make it.

So the lessons are, always use appropriately sized pots and newly propagated/transplanted material needs additional protection. Nothing earth shattering here and nothing that did not already know but sometimes it's easy to allow your enthusiasm to get the better of you. So think everything through before you act.

Norm

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The actual work for 2010:

After nearly two years of the layering process I finally hoped that I could make some real progress and things are beginning to look better. Here's what I found when I re-potted this year. Notice the stub that remained from the parent stock.

[url=https://img638.imageshack.us/I/stubp3080005edit.jpg/][img]https://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5167/stubp3080005edit.th.jpg[/img][/url]

After cleaning the roots, removing the stub and selecting which roots to leave in order to form the eventual nebari.

[url=https://img519.imageshack.us/I/rootsp3080008edit.jpg/][img]https://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1993/rootsp3080008edit.th.jpg[/img][/url]

And here it is after being potted back into the gray training box that helped to cause my troubles in 2008. I did not really shorten the roots much, feeling that I should 'let them run' for a few years to help thicken up. I was reluctant to wire the tree into the pot due to the still delicate nature of the roots so I secured it from above with kitchen twine. This also provided the added benefit of allowing me to easily adjust the tree into the vertical position that is characteristic of the broom style.

[url=https://img205.imageshack.us/I/tiedupbroom.jpg/][img]https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9839/tiedupbroom.th.jpg[/img][/url]

And here it is leafed out.

[url=https://img89.imageshack.us/I/p4090026edit.jpg/][img]https://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4117/p4090026edit.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Barring any unforeseen circumstances I don't anticipate re-potting this one for several years now, certainly not in 2011, perhaps 2012 at the earliest.

Norm
Last edited by Gnome on Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Victrinia Ridgeway
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Loos like you'll get some splendid radial rootage Norm! Excellent post! It's always hard to learn from our mistakes, but wonderful when something like this survives to tell the tale. :D

I've got one my hubby and I did this spring, I'll have to post that one as well... Maybe sunday... I'm on vacation at the moment, and all my cool photos are at home. :)

V

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Victrinia,
Loos like you'll get some splendid radial rootage Norm! Excellent post!
Thanks, I hope so. I've been messing with this one since 2005 (although the first years work was lost) and it's just starting to look like something.
It's always hard to learn from our mistakes, but wonderful when something like this survives to tell the tale.
What really bothered me was that in retrospect I knew better but let myself get carried away. :oops:
I've got one my hubby and I did this spring, I'll have to post that one as well... Maybe sunday... I'm on vacation at the moment, and all my cool photos are at home.
It's still early here, it was 39F last night and set to approach freezing tonight. Now I have to decide what has to come inside and what I can risk.

Please do post your photos when you have the opportunity. Now go enjoy your vacation. 8)

Norm

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Big Vine
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Excellent update, Norm.
I don't know what else to say other than I really like the direction you are heading with this one and look forward to seeing future progress. 8)
BV

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Sean,

Thanks for the support. I try not to just show my successes, as meager as they may be, but also my missteps and failures. I've done a lot of dumb stuff over the years but my errors are becoming less frequent. Many new growers fail at their first attempts and hopefully by showing that we all make mistakes they will not be greatly discouraged.

Norm

JordanRHughes
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thanks you so much for taking the time to post your progress.

Jordan.



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